Dependent Origination

[Vajrahridaya]

It is not only perfectly OK to liberate any and all secret mantra material, it is commendable. That's my personal permission and empowerment. If people aren't ready, they have every right to reject the teachings and ignore them. If they are ready, they will make use of the teachings. It's very wrong to forcefully push any teaching onto anyone, but keeping teachings secrets is equally as wrong. People must be given a choice and their choice must be respected.

 

I don't agree.

 

People don't know what they need. People also bastardize these things, water them down, and actually diminish the meaning and power. It's an energy thing as well as a practical thing. Even Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche won't give you Togal unless you're ready for that contemplation.

 

If you want to read the stuff, then just get Heart Drops of Dharmakaya as he just let it all hang out it seems. I have the book but haven't read it yet. You're entitled to your opinion, but I just think ya wrong in this case.

[SeriesOfTubes]

If there was a permanent independent God, he would not be able to interact with this universe, because this universe is dependently originated. The two natures are not compatible. Thus it would be meaningless to talk about God at all.

 

 

can anyone remind me why exactly this is?

[RongzomFan]

can anyone remind me why exactly this is?

 

Read "the middle way" by the Dalai Lama.

 

Everything that is dependently originated is empty (if you know what that means).

 

So an independent reality would not be able to interact with this universe...to such an extent that it would be meaningless to talk about a God.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

I'll give you another reply. Let's compare the power of the secret mantra to a different kind of power: guns. Guns are dangerous, I think we can all agree. Should the sale of guns be limited then? Who does this benefit? It turns out that gun control only benefits the crooks while it deprives ordinary citizens of many rights, such as their right to self-defense, and their right to overthrow a tyrannical government, and their right to practice marksmanship as a hobby, and so on.

 

The answer to outlaws having guns is to empower everyone, rather than to try to disempower everyone by default and to attempt to control the flow of power. Make everyone powerful and then the deviant users of power won't feel so confident and sure.

 

Now, is there a danger that someone will buy a gun and then misuse it? Of course there is. But it's worth the sacrifice. For every 1 person who misuses the liberty to own a gun, there are 100,000 who don't misuse it. We shouldn't punish the 100,000 in order to protect our society from that 1 oddball.

 

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

 

Now, the teachings of the secret mantra are certainly powerful. But their function and intent, first and foremost, is to liberate. Never forget that.

 

 

Ah but thats where you are wrong. Imagine one black magician attaining a very high level like close to their demonic equivalent of rainbow body. He could destroy the heavens etc.

 

So a closer analogy would be to give everyone nuclear weapons, not guns.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

can anyone remind me why exactly this is?

 

Because that would mean everything is pre-determined and that all is really just one beings will. That would be independent origination, not dependent origination. Dependent origination leads to infinite regress, cycles and reversions to cycles to reversions without beginning nor an end. But if all things came from one giant will, the universe just wouldn't work as it does. The Buddha said, if there is a creator god who is truly responsible for the suffering of all beings, then that same god could take it all away at will. Or something like that... he said something to that effect. I bet Xabir could get the exact quote for us??

 

The Buddha also said that there is not a single uncaused cause in the cosmos. The theory of god is a theory of an uncaused cause.

[Vajrahridaya]

Ah but thats where you are wrong. Imagine one black magician attaining a very high level like close to their demonic equivalent of rainbow body. He could destroy the heavens etc.

 

So a closer analogy would be to give everyone nuclear weapons, not guns.

 

The analogy does work. It's funny though...

 

But yes, there are metaphysical reasons why the secret teachings are indeed secret and protected by deities. The Tulkus and Rinpoches who are highly realized are connected with these protector deities who do actually exist and even these deities won't let the Rinpoches give out information that they don't previous approve to give out. It's not all that simple nor is it a mundane thing. Maybe for some, but not for Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or many other highly realized masters.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

Wow I guess you missed the entire point of my post. I don't care whether black magicians kill people or whatever.

 

Again the point is they would corrupt the teachings. In fact it has already happened. The ass clown Poke Runyon took some Vajrayana teachings and combined it with the Goetia.

 

It's easy to corrupt something that is kept secret. If the correct teachings were publicly available and well known for what they are, there would be no way to corrupt them. For example, try to corrupt the text of the Constitution of the USA and promulgate that corruption. See how far it goes.

 

Secrecy is precisely that which brings on ignorance, corruption of the content, and abusive behaviors.

[RongzomFan]

It's easy to corrupt something that is kept secret. If the correct teachings were publicly available and well known for what they are, there would be no way to corrupt them. For example, try to corrupt the text of the Constitution of the USA and promulgate that corruption. See how far it goes.

 

Secrecy is precisely that which brings on ignorance, corruption of the content, and abusive behaviors.

 

 

ok maybe not corrupt.....I meant subvert for their own magickal paradigm. Just like Poke Runyon did. He took Vajrayana teachings and combined it with Goetia.

 

Instead of guru yoga with enlightened buddhas, you do guru yoga with demons or something like that.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

Ah but thats where you are wrong. Imagine one black magician attaining a very high level like close to their demonic equivalent of rainbow body. He could destroy the heavens etc.

 

So a closer analogy would be to give everyone nuclear weapons, not guns.

 

This is idiotic. You don't understand how magic works. Nothing could be destroyed against your will. The heavens can be only destroyed if you secretly or knowingly believe in such possibility and if such expression is not counter your deepest intent.

 

Further, I myself have a nuclear bomb as you say. I have it now and I will give it to anyone who asks. So what's the point of keeping secrets?

 

Further, there are nuclear bombs all over the place already even without me. Ever read "Buddhahood without Meditation?" It's a nuclear bomb right there. So what?

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[RongzomFan]

Further, there are nuclear bombs all over the place already even without me. Ever read "Buddhahood without Meditation?" It's a nuclear bomb right there. So what?

 

"Buddhahood without Meditation" is not a nuclear weapon. Thats a spitwad at best.

 

 

Nothing could be destroyed against your will. The heavens can be only destroyed if you secretly or knowingly believe in such possibility and if such expression is not counter your deepest intent.

 

You don't think a black magician would will to destroy the heavens. You don't think that would be their deepest intent?? Go onto the Satanism forums dude.

 

See I know a lot of stuff since I am a polymath.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

ok maybe not corrupt.....I meant subvert for their own magickal paradigm. Just like Poke Runyon did. He took Vajrayana teachings and combined it with Goetia.

 

Instead of guru yoga with enlightened buddhas, you do guru yoga with demons or something like that.

 

Of course Buddhists have been subverting things forever. You do realize that originally Buddhism scorned the very idea of deities? However, when Buddhism came to Tibet, people were attached to Bon deities like Tara and so on.

 

For example:

 

Many ritual objects we use and think to be Buddhist originate from Bon. Research and studies on the subject seem to support this. Prayer flags, tormas (sacrificial food offerings), use of swords, spears, and arrows in rituals, namkhas (thread-cross constructions), belief in lus (underworld spirits), yulhas (village deities), and nyes (spirits that live in trees, rocks, lakes and mountains), are all Bon traditions. Even our endless worldly rituals to local deities, observed to clear obstacles, to bring wealth, to make the sick better, pawos, mo and tsi all come from the Bonpo cosmogony. Our death rituals also stem from Bon and the practice of Phowa comes from their soul ritual.

 

So you see, when Buddhism couldn't get rid of something, it just co-opted that something to fit its purpose. Thus chakras were co-opted and became empty and symbolic rather than substantial and real like in Hindu Tantra. Deities became empty and meditational yidams rather than inherently real. And so on.

 

So it's only fair that some of our wisdom is co-opted by others. If you co-opt the teachings of others without allowing some of your teachings to be co-opted, then you're a greedy and fearful tightwad who will surely go to hell.

 

I am powerful and I fuck everyone. But I also allow to get myself fucked. Thus there is balance. This is a very secret instruction. I kill only because I allow myself to be killed. It goes both ways.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

"Buddhahood without Meditation" is not a nuclear weapon. Thats a spitwad at best.

 

[goldisheavy]

"Buddhahood without Meditation" is not a nuclear weapon. Thats a spitwad at best.

 

That only means you're a moron. You could conceivably build your house on a nuke and not even know it.

 

You don't think a black magician would will to destroy the heavens. You don't think that would be their deepest intent?? Go onto the Satanism forums dude.

 

See I know a lot of stuff since I am a polymath.

 

Don't fret. Do you want heavens destroyed? No? Then they won't be, no matter what anyone does. I can't do something to you that you don't believe and support at least on some level of your being.

 

I wish you worried as much about liberation as you worry about safety. What a disgusting coward.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[RongzomFan]

I just don't like Vajrayana teachings being subverted with Goetia, Satan etc.

 

Thats just me.

 

I ask the bystanders who won the debate since you resort to name calling. I know ralis would side with you though.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[Vajrahridaya]

Of course Buddhists have been subverting things forever. You do realize that originally Buddhism scorned the very idea of deities? However, when Buddhism came to Tibet, people were attached to Bon deities like Tara and so on.

 

For example:

Your example is total bs! It surprises me that you believe it as well? The form and the the deities are different in many cases, but this stuff existed in India long before it came to Tibet. There was no scorn for deities... The Pali Suttas talks about deities and taking refuge in them for the sake of worldly prosperity, but not for liberation unless they are a Buddha. Vajrayana has always had deity yogas with tools of contemplation from the time of India...

 

Your example is totally whack! Whoever did these studies is not that insightful.

 

So you see, when Buddhism couldn't get rid of something, it just co-opted that something to fit its purpose. Thus chakras were co-opted and became empty and symbolic rather than substantial and real like in Hindu Tantra. Deities became empty and meditational yidams rather than inherently real. And so on.

 

There is no evidence to say who came up with tantra first really... except that tantric deities in Buddhist temples in ancient India have been excavated and found to be earlier.

 

Seriously, your information is hogwash.

 

So it's only fair that some of our wisdom is co-opted by others. If you co-opt the teachings of others without allowing some of your teachings to be co-opted, then you're a greedy and fearful tightwad who will surely go to hell.

Wow, you don't know what your talking about.

 

I am powerful and I fuck everyone. But I also allow to get myself fucked. Thus there is balance. This is a very secret instruction. I kill only because I allow myself to be killed. It goes both ways.

 

Some keen ignorance here buddy.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

Instead of guru yoga with enlightened buddhas, you do guru yoga with demons or something like that.

 

And in Chod you allow demons to consume your body. Why so? Because Buddhism teaches universal compassion. We have compassion even for demons. If demons want to eat our bodies, we don't resist. We offer them. This also, obviously, cultivates a state of utmost unparalleled fearlessness, which is equal to unbinding and liberation.

 

When Manjusri was threatened by lord Yama, he manifested himself as Yamantaka, which is like Yama times 10: more demonic and more menacing. Do you understand the meaning of this?

[Gerard]

D.O. is the exact same thing as 'cause and effect'. The only problem is that the way D.O. is presented here suggests that one cannot create their own causes...

 

Not quite the same thing but in essence it is. There is individual karma and then there is DO. The latter being the very Samsara itself and the zillions of mini-events that happen within as a result of karmic impulses.

 

Honestly I haven't read the whole thread because there is way too much bickering and negativity and I sway away from it as soon as I detect it. But maybe you are right and DO has been presented erroneously by reading others or thinking about it rather than experiencing it first had as a result from personal cultivation, the same way as the last Buddha did in this physical plane. Other Buddhas have used different methods to come across this realisation.

[Vajrahridaya]

That only means you're a moron. You could conceivably build your house on a nuke and not even know it.

 

 

 

Don't fret. Do you want heavens destroyed? No? Then they won't be, no matter what anyone does. I can't do something to you that you don't believe and support at least on some level of your being.

 

I wish you worried as much about liberation as you worry about safety. What a disgusting coward.

 

So the people in the World Trade Centers as well as the towers themselves wanted to be crushed? You give personal will too much credit. You seem more like a solipsist than someone who understands dependent origination.

[goldisheavy]

The Pali Suttas talks about deities and taking refuge in them for the sake of worldly prosperity, but not for liberation unless they are a Buddha.

 

In Pali Cannon there are instances of deities taking refuge in Buddha, but never the other way around. People themselves were asked to take refuge in the triple gem and only in the triple gem. Never in any deity. Ever. Deities are considered ignorant unless they also happen to be bodhisattvas at the same time. In that case, the status of a bodhisattva is what's important and the status of deity is ignorable.

 

And yes, Tibetan Buddhism is a big mix of things. It's not pure Buddhism by any means. That doesn't make it bad or unacceptable. Just face the truth.

[Vajrahridaya]

And in Chod you allow demons to consume your body.

 

No, a projected body, not your body, a decoy. Have you even received transmission in Chod and practiced it? I have.

 

When Manjusri was threatened by lord Yama, he manifested himself as Yamantaka, which is like Yama times 10: more demonic and more menacing. Do you understand the meaning of this?

 

I don't think you do.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

Of course Buddhists have been subverting things forever. You do realize that originally Buddhism scorned the very idea of deities? However, when Buddhism came to Tibet, people were attached to Bon deities like Tara and so on.

 

 

I didn't even see this until Vaj replied to it.

 

GIH, are you serious? All these deities were part of INDIAN buddhism.

 

Read the THE CAKRASAMVARA TANTRA by David Gray

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

So the people in the World Trade Centers as well as the towers themselves wanted to be crushed?

 

Yes. We give permission for things to be crushed in that manner because we believe in the constraints of the physicality more surely and more deeply than we believe anything else.

 

Mahasiddhas had the ability to deny such permission. Thus when people tried to shoot them with arrows or set them on fire, they'd fail. Things like that.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

In Pali Cannon there are instances of deities taking refuge in Buddha, but never the other way around. People themselves were asked to take refuge in the triple gem and only in the triple gem. Never in any deity. Ever. Deities are considered ignorant unless they also happen to be bodhisattvas at the same time. In that case, the status of a bodhisattva is what's important and the status of deity is ignorable.

 

No, praying to worldly gods for worldly things has always been acceptable in Buddhism, but not for liberation.

 

And yes, Tibetan Buddhism is a big mix of things. It's not pure Buddhism by any means. That doesn't make it bad or unacceptable. Just face the truth.

 

Actually, there are only a few new additions that took place in Tibet, and sure, plenty of epidermic changes, except for the tulku tradition, that's deep and a new addition.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

No, praying to worldly gods for worldly things has always been acceptable in Buddhism, but not for liberation.

 

I'd like a citation from the Pali Cannon please.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes. We give permission for things to be crushed in that manner because we believe in the constraints of the physicality more surely and more deeply than we believe anything else.

 

Mahasiddhas had the ability to deny such permission. Thus when people tried to shoot them with arrows or set them on fire, they'd fail. Things like that.

 

Ok, I understand what you're getting at. In a sense that is correct, but it's more complicated than this as well.