Dependent Origination

[RongzomFan]

I'd like a citation from the Pali Cannon please.

 

 

He is right.

[Vajrahridaya]

I'd like a citation from the Pali Cannon please.

 

I'm not good at quotations from texts... I don't remember exact places, pages, what exact scripture, etc. All I know is that it's an acceptable practice and has been in India and other areas of the world for centuries before Buddhism ever came to Tibet.

[RongzomFan]

Anyway most of the tantric deities like Heruka are straight out of India, as NWA is straight out of Compton.

[Vajrahridaya]

Anyway most of the tantric deities like Heruka are straight out of India, as NWA is straight out of Compton.

 

Actually... I think only Easy E and MC Ren was. Ice Cube was from South Central and I think Dr. Dre was from some more upper class suburban area? Funny joke... none the less.

[goldisheavy]

He is right.

 

Your word has exactly zero weight with me.

 

Still, maybe he is right. All I want is a citation. That's not a lot to ask.

[RongzomFan]

Your word has exactly zero weight with me.

 

Still, maybe he is right. All I want is a citation. That's not a lot to ask.

 

 

My word has no weight? Jesus Christ. You should look at your posts over the years.

 

Yes it is a lot to ask. The Pali Canon? Are you serious? Who the hell reads that?

 

I accept the Pali canon, but I don't read it. We don't even have the real Pali canon available.

 

You can ask a Sakya Loppon on his blog:

 

www.atikosha.org

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

I'm not good at quotations from texts... I don't remember exact places, pages, what exact scripture, etc. All I know is that it's an acceptable practice and has been in India and other areas of the world for centuries before Buddhism ever came to Tibet.

 

There is a difference between a practice being culturally acceptable and what the Buddha actually taught in the Pali Cannon. That's why I want a citation. If you can't back this up, I suggest you stop saying it for now.

[ben]

 

The analogy does work. It's funny though...

 

But yes, there are metaphysical reasons why the secret teachings are indeed secret and protected by deities. The Tulkus and Rinpoches who are highly realized are connected with these protector deities who do actually exist and even these deities won't let the Rinpoches give out information that they don't previous approve to give out. It's not all that simple nor is it a mundane thing. Maybe for some, but not for Chogyal Namkhai Norbu or many other highly realized masters.

[/quot

Protector deities like Begste the Mongolian God of War were appropriated from shamanic traditions.

Edited January 31, 2012 by ben

[goldisheavy]

My word has no weight? Jesus Christ. You should look at your posts over the years.

 

Look, everyone is free to make these kinds of choices. I don't expect slavish and unquestioning belief from others. How about you?

[Vajrahridaya]

Your word has exactly zero weight with me.

 

Still, maybe he is right. All I want is a citation. That's not a lot to ask.

 

Can't give you one... I've read too much, it's all mushed together in my head. I am right though.

 

Also... Alwayson is right about the deities coming from India. All the earliest Buddhist Tantras talk about this stuff. You need a more thorough education, and you need to stop reading these horrible scholars with no insight at all whatsoever that you use as examples. Just like Dwai needs to stop reading Advaitin commentaries on Buddhist material, if you or he want to know what Buddhism is about that is.

 

Some systematic study would do you good GIH.

[Birch]

Anyway most of the tantric deities like Heruka are straight out of India, as NWA is straight out of Compton.

 

Can I quote you?

[RongzomFan]

Well I thought it was just common knowledge that Vajrayana was practiced in India for hundreds of years before being transmitted to Tibet.

[Vajrahridaya]

Your brain washed.

Protector deities like Begste the Mongolian God of War were appropriated from shamanic traditions. I think the cross pollination of Buddhism with older Earth centric traditions indicates that D.O. is not a human centred teaching.

A lot of Tibetan masters have chronic health problems, they are not complete human beings, certainly no better or wiser than me.

 

Again, what has Buddhism achieved in real time? Has it contributed to the collective in any meaningful way?

 

Ok Mr. I am the body...

 

You're too blind to talk to. You keep doing you though ben.

 

Seek and ye shall find!! Whatsoever you look for, you will see.

[goldisheavy]

Anyway most of the tantric deities like Heruka are straight out of India, as NWA is straight out of Compton.

 

I believe some deities do come from India and some come from Tibet and the surrounding lands, like China and/or Mongolia or even Siberia. The point is that Buddhists have been known to re-purpose deities, to give them new meanings. This isn't unique to Buddhism. Every tradition, if it had the mind to subjugate the local tradition, had to co-opt at least some parts of it, rather then try to replace everything. Hence Christians stole Yuletide to make Christmas and so on. Buddhists did the same thing too.

 

This doesn't make anything bad or evil, but it is what it is. I don't like to distort things or pretend.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[RongzomFan]

I believe some deities do come from India and some come from Tibet and the surrounding lands, like China and/or Mongolia or even Siberia. The point is that Buddhists have been known to re-purpose deities, to give them new meanings. This isn't unique to Buddhism. Every tradition, if it had the mind to subjugate the local tradition, had to co-opt at least some parts of it, rather then try to replace everything. Hence Christians stole Yuletide to make Christmas and so on. Buddhists did the same thing too.

 

This doesn't make anything bad or evil, but it is what it is. I don't like to distort things or pretend.

 

 

Well I can't think of any that are Tibetan. I am just running through a list in my head. I am pretty sure all of them are Indian.

[Birch]

Well I thought it was just common knowledge that Vajrayana was practiced in India for hundreds of years before being transmitted to Tibet.

 

No, I meant really, can I use your quote? I asked Xakari and he said yes, hence the quote in my sig :-)

[Vajrahridaya]

I believe some deities do come from India and some come from Tibet and the surrounding lands, like China and/or Mongolia or even Siberia. The point is that Buddhists have been known to re-purpose deities, to give them new meanings. This isn't unique to Buddhism. Every tradition, if it had the mind to subjugate the local tradition, had to co-opt at least some parts of it, rather then try to replace everything. Hence Christians stole Yuletide to make Christmas and so on. Buddhists did the same thing too.

 

This doesn't make anything bad or evil, but it is what it is. I don't like to distort things or pretend.

 

Oh of course... there were plenty of new deities introduced into the same old from India practices. Some of the local demons and gods were subjugated and turned into protectors.

 

I'm not denying that at all.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[RongzomFan]

Kate,

 

If you want to use any of my quotes, please go ahead.

[Birch]

Kate,

 

If you want to use any of my quotes, please go ahead.

 

 

Thank you

[RongzomFan]

Oh of course... there were plenty of new deities introduced into the same old from India practices. Some of the local demons and gods were subjugated and turned into protectors.

 

I'm not denying that at all.

 

 

Oh yes maybe some of these protectors. I don't know about them.

 

But all the main ones are as Indian as Gandhi

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh yes maybe some of these protectors. I don't know about them.

 

But all the main ones are as Indian as Gandhi

 

Yup... they sure are. Funny that Gandhi started his non-violent movement in South Africa though.

[goldisheavy]

Well I can't think of any that are Tibetan. I am just running through a list in my head. I am pretty sure all of them are Indian.

 

It's hard to establish origin, because they seem to be everywhere. For example, Garuda. Read about it. Notice how this kind of iconography is present in many regions. Who is first? That's hard to say.

 

For example, consider the first chapter of Chuang Tzu:

 

1. In the Northern Ocean there is a fish, the name of which is Khwan,-- I do not know how many lî in size. It changes into a bird with the name of Phang, the back of which is (also)-- I do not know how many lî in extent. When this bird rouses itself and flies, its wings are like clouds all round the sky. When the sea is moved (so as to bear it along), it prepares to remove to the Southern Ocean. The Southern Ocean is the Pool of Heaven.

 

There is the (book called) Khî Hsieh,-- a record of marvels. We have in it these words:-- 'When the phang is removing to the Southern Ocean it flaps (its wings) on the water for 3000 lî. Then it ascends on a whirlwind 90,000 lî, and it rests only at the end of six months.' (But similar to this is the movement of the breezes which we call) the horses of the fields, of the dust (which quivers in the sunbeams), and of living things as they are blown against one another by the air. Is its azure the proper colour of the sky? Or is it occasioned by its distance and illimitable extent? If one were looking down (from above), the very same appearance would just meet his view.

 

It appears that Phang (I've also seen it transliterated as Peng) is exactly like Garuda here.

 

The point really is not to say what's first and what's second. That's not the point at all. The point is that Buddhism adopts and re-purposes things all the time. For example, Buddha has adopted and re-purposed the idea of karma. That idea existed before Buddha was born, and yet Buddha gave a new and different explanation of karma from the prevailing one. That's just one example.

 

So the point is that there is always intermingling going on. It's unfair to try to protect your teachings from being corrupted. You should try to spread the correct version of your teachings while allowing others to creatively corrupt what you say.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[RongzomFan]

For example, Buddha has adopted and re-purposed the idea of karma. That idea existed before Buddha was born, and yet Buddha gave a new and different explanation of karma from the prevailing one.

 

 

I thought Buddha came up with karma??

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[goldisheavy]

Oh of course... there were plenty of new deities introduced into the same old from India practices. Some of the local demons and gods were subjugated and turned into protectors.

 

I'm not denying that at all.

 

Great. So we're on the same page here. There is a bit of give and take going on between many traditions. It's unfair to be only on the taking side while guarding against giving through secrecy. Loosen up. That's what I am saying. Let go. Don't hoard. Don't hoard material things, but also don't hoard spiritual things either.

[goldisheavy]

I thought Buddha came up with karma??

 

Are you joking?