Censorship On The Dependent Origination Thread

[ralis]

Cat felt it necessary to delete words that are offensive to a few thin skinned readers. She claimed that this deletion did in no way change the meaning of the post. I disagree. This action changes the intent and context of the statement. Cat should know better than to take this action and send certain terms down "the memory hole!"

 

Censorship has no place in a free society and leads to a slippery slope!

 

 

 

My link

[三江源]

Cat felt it necessary to delete words that are offensive to a few thin skinned readers. She claimed that this deletion did in no way change the meaning of the post. I disagree. This action changes the intent and context of the statement. Cat should know better than to take this action and send certain terms down "the memory hole!"

 

Censorship has no place in a free society and leads to a slippery slope!

 

 

 

My link

 

Heh heh. The memory hole?

 

Do I have access to that? Wowser. SO much I could do...

[ralis]

Heh heh. The memory hole?

 

Do I have access to that? Wowser. SO much I could do...

 

You would like to have that power? What you censored went down the memory hole. I read 1984 when I was very young and it left a lasting impression.

[三江源]

You would like to have that power? What you censored went down the memory hole. I read 1984 when I was very young and it left a lasting impression.

 

Therapy can help.

[ralis]

Therapy can help.

 

 

Therapy for who?

[ralis]

It was Gerard who complained. I guess some Buddhists are really attached to controlling others.

 

 

My link

Edited February 7, 2011 by ralis

[Sloppy Zhang]

Ah, hmm, interesting topic, don't know on which side I'd fall on!

 

In general, I agree with you, ralis, that censorship is a slippery slope. We're on a forum where spirituality is taken quite seriously (while many people just consider it one more box to fill out on a survey form), so to that extent, emotions can run high. And sometimes when speaking from the heart, censorship be damned, who cares if you step on someone's toes?

 

Honest messages like that should be looked at for where they are coming from, and not to be compared to a checklist of "no no" words.

 

On the other hand.....

 

We do live in a society in which words have meaning, and in which some people consider words to be very important, and a reflection on the outside of what you contain on the inside. And certain words in conjunction with other words (such as an expletive in conjunction with an established and generally well respected religious/spiritual group) can be quite offensive to other peoples' sensibilities, and they could take it as a huge sign of disrespect, even if the message does come from the heart (though they may be likely to say that what's in the heart isn't very good if all the comes out is the f-bomb )

 

And I think that we should be courteous to others and keep their opinions in mind when we say things so......

 

I dunno. Balance is good in theory, tracking the intent of people can be good, but also hard to do, especially if a bias or stereotype sets in.....

 

As for the players involved, goldisheavy can say some pretty iconoclastic things, and those can be offensive, but I think he gives some rather excellent insights if you take a step back, don't get so hung up on what you absolutely know to be right, and just look at the meaning behind what he's trying to say.

 

Gerard seems to be a pretty nice, dedicated guy (and always comes up with lots of pictures!) but does seem to be a bit of a stickler to the rules, and for upholding the legitimacy of varying traditions. Which can cut both ways, because there are a lot of people in this world who have a lot to teach but.... eh, well it can conflict with the "free spirit" of the internet, and internet forums (didn't he also make a list of people who were contributing to the downward spiral of TTB? I believe I was on that list.... )

 

Ralis, you seem to be a pretty nice, yet iconoclastic guy yourself As to 1984, I'm sorry to say this but...... well it always comes up on the internet, and for me it's gotten to a point where seemingly no one reads any other books (this mostly has to do with forums populated with a teenage audience.....) it's like, they read 1984 in high school, then they stopped reading! (it's about when I stopped reading in high school, 1984 was a cool book, and every book after that was laaaaaaaaame....) unfortunately everybody references it and it just gets old.... maybe we can find another book that talks about a society controlled entirely by the government? Hmm....

 

 

So what it comes down to is- this is the internet, people are going to disagree, toes are going to get stepped on, everyone's going to get into one huge old fight, some people are going to come out REALLY not liking someone else, and..... yeah. People will keep swearing. People will keep asking for censorship. Some are going to be censored. Some aren't.

 

I don't want to encourage any apathy, lest TTB becomes the new 1984 but.... eh, it happens?

 

Though I do lean towards less censorship than more.

[ralis]

Ah, hmm, interesting topic, don't know on which side I'd fall on!

 

In general, I agree with you, ralis, that censorship is a slippery slope. We're on a forum where spirituality is taken quite seriously (while many people just consider it one more box to fill out on a survey form), so to that extent, emotions can run high. And sometimes when speaking from the heart, censorship be damned, who cares if you step on someone's toes?

 

Honest messages like that should be looked at for where they are coming from, and not to be compared to a checklist of "no no" words.

 

On the other hand.....

 

We do live in a society in which words have meaning, and in which some people consider words to be very important, and a reflection on the outside of what you contain on the inside. And certain words in conjunction with other words (such as an expletive in conjunction with an established and generally well respected religious/spiritual group) can be quite offensive to other peoples' sensibilities, and they could take it as a huge sign of disrespect, even if the message does come from the heart (though they may be likely to say that what's in the heart isn't very good if all the comes out is the f-bomb )

 

And I think that we should be courteous to others and keep their opinions in mind when we say things so......

 

I dunno. Balance is good in theory, tracking the intent of people can be good, but also hard to do, especially if a bias or stereotype sets in.....

 

As for the players involved, goldisheavy can say some pretty iconoclastic things, and those can be offensive, but I think he gives some rather excellent insights if you take a step back, don't get so hung up on what you absolutely know to be right, and just look at the meaning behind what he's trying to say.

 

Gerard seems to be a pretty nice, dedicated guy (and always comes up with lots of pictures!) but does seem to be a bit of a stickler to the rules, and for upholding the legitimacy of varying traditions. Which can cut both ways, because there are a lot of people in this world who have a lot to teach but.... eh, well it can conflict with the "free spirit" of the internet, and internet forums (didn't he also make a list of people who were contributing to the downward spiral of TTB? I believe I was on that list.... )

 

Ralis, you seem to be a pretty nice, yet iconoclastic guy yourself As to 1984, I'm sorry to say this but...... well it always comes up on the internet, and for me it's gotten to a point where seemingly no one reads any other books (this mostly has to do with forums populated with a teenage audience.....) it's like, they read 1984 in high school, then they stopped reading! (it's about when I stopped reading in high school, 1984 was a cool book, and every book after that was laaaaaaaaame....) unfortunately everybody references it and it just gets old.... maybe we can find another book that talks about a society controlled entirely by the government? Hmm....

 

 

So what it comes down to is- this is the internet, people are going to disagree, toes are going to get stepped on, everyone's going to get into one huge old fight, some people are going to come out REALLY not liking someone else, and..... yeah. People will keep swearing. People will keep asking for censorship. Some are going to be censored. Some aren't.

 

I don't want to encourage any apathy, lest TTB becomes the new 1984 but.... eh, it happens?

 

Though I do lean towards less censorship than more.

 

Actually I never stopped reading and am very well read. There are many other sources I could reference. However, that one is the most well known.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Actually I never stopped reading and am very well read. There are many other sources I could reference. However, that one is the most well known.

 

I am very glad to hear that!

[Nanashi]

This is spiritual fascism, man. I respect the individual mods as people, but their rule has been a downer-- things seemed to get a long fine when there was one intermittent mod. Look at how Drew Hempel has been exiled, and the situation when GiH was temp-banned over a political discussion was completely unwarranted.

[Birch]

It must be hard to mod this board.

 

"Spirituality" for me has no boundaries. But I understand that people like to be able to set off a place in their lives where whatever (awful?) things they think and do are somehow set apart ("sacred" I believe is the term?) from everything else. I personally believe that to be B$ (please don't edit).

 

Still, if people get offended when certain words are said AND you want to convince them, probably not a useful thing. The UK (and US), I believe are learning this with "nudging"

[Gerard]

It was Gerard who complained. I guess some Buddhists are really attached to controlling others.

 

 

My link

 

 

No ralis, not control, but respect and good manners yes. What would an stranger looking for healing therapy think of The Tao Bums if they happen to click on the Dependent Origination thread and read some of what has been said in there. I don't think I need to give you an aswer.

 

Try to act the way you do in these two other forums I visit sometimes and see how long you'll last with your behaviour:

 

http://www.teachat.com/

 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion

 

 

Or even better go to a Thai or Burmese monastery and swear at the senior monks saying that Dependent Origination is absolute nonsense.

 

Let me give you this advice: start working on your own mind rather than arguing with the minds of fellow humans.

[RongzomFan]

This is spiritual fascism, man. I respect the individual mods as people, but their rule has been a downer-- things seemed to get a long fine when there was one intermittent mod. Look at how Drew Hempel has been exiled, and the situation when GiH was temp-banned over a political discussion was completely unwarranted.

 

 

Drew Hempel has been exiled?

 

Nice enough guy but he would pollute threads with a lot of his weird personal views.

Edited February 8, 2011 by alwayson

[Birch]

"weird personal views."

 

Much of what I post, thanks dude

 

DH was an interesting set of perspectives to say the least. And funnily enough, since he's been gone, certain people seem to be working twice as hard to get a rise pun intended.

 

Anyway, I wouldn't worry, you can still go visit him over on his various blogs and such.

 

Music Guy disappeared as well.

 

So did Paul Walter

 

So did...

 

big list.

 

TTB's seems to be a clearing house of sorts. Of sorts

[goldisheavy]

Cat felt it necessary to delete words that are offensive to a few thin skinned readers. She claimed that this deletion did in no way change the meaning of the post. I disagree. This action changes the intent and context of the statement. Cat should know better than to take this action and send certain terms down "the memory hole!"

 

Censorship has no place in a free society and leads to a slippery slope!

 

 

 

My link

 

Ralis, I appreciate you standing up for freedom of expression. Obviously I completely agree with you on this, and the intent was not so much to curse any individual people, but to curse the practice of secret-keeping. The main emphasis here is that I very much detest the practice of secrecy as it appears in some spiritual traditions.

 

I believe secrecy is justifiable when the secrets are small, petty, and personally private (like how many times you masturbate... I really don't need to know that, and it doesn't affect the well-being of anyone, so it's fine to keep it a secret). Secrecy is also justifiable when you risk your (or someone else's) life for sharing some information and when that information is not liberative in nature. If the information is liberative then really the loss of life is no longer as significant in comparison. Liberation and wisdom are values that are much, much higher than bodily life. Still, when the bodily life is threatened for sharing some information, I can empathize with that, and I can understand secrecy in such case.

 

This is why I have cursed the practice of secrecy. Naturally anyone who promotes, defends, and/or praises such practice has fallen under my curse as a side-effect.

 

In most every case I can think of, secrecy is ruinous. Secrecy enables and protects theft, corruption and deviant behavior. Good people do not resort to secrecy except in limited extreme circumstances unless the secrets are small petty things that are not important to begin with (like the size of your private parts, for example, etc.). Further, the more people participate in some organization, the more transparent that organization needs to be for everyone's benefit and safety. This absolutely and emphatically includes all spiritual organizations.

 

Thank you.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

No ralis, not control, but respect and good manners yes.

 

You ignorant fool. Respect can't be forced. If someone is disrespecting you and you use force or the threats of force or punishments, and let's say you get hypothetical compliance, what you get in that case is not respect at all! What you get is deception! Now why would you want to deceive yourself?

 

The only way to change disrespect into respect is to change a person's heart. You can't do it through force. You can only do it through a compelling argument or a personal example.

 

Respect has to be natural and sincere. It has to be earned. It is not given freely or against one's will or sincere beliefs and intentions. Just asking for it is very wrong. You should try to figure out why it is you are being disrespected. Maybe you need to change your behavior? Maybe you're disrespected for a good reason? These must be things you consider instead of just outright preemptively and unilaterally demanding respect on principle.

 

Fool. Fool. Fool.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Sloppy Zhang]

What would an stranger looking for healing therapy think of The Tao Bums if they happen to click on the Dependent Origination thread and read some of what has been said in there. I don't think I need to give you an aswer.

 

Hopefully they would have read enough to understand a bit about the context in which the comments were made, and not just be like, "zomg f-bomb, obviously that person has nothing intelligent to add to the conversation!"

 

If they can't comprehend the context, then I'd say they have bigger problems!

 

Try to act the way you do in these two other forums I visit sometimes and see how long you'll last with your behaviour:

 

http://www.teachat.com/

 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion

 

I dunno if it's fair to compare TTB's to other forums, because just as easily as you can find forums which would get half of the members of TTB's banned, you can find just as many (if not more?) forums where gratuitous (and oftentimes unnecessary, bordering on unintelligible) swearing is par for the course sooooooo.....

 

Yeah.

 

Or even better go to a Thai or Burmese monastery and swear at the senior monks saying that Dependent Origination is absolute nonsense.

 

Would they speak enough english to know what's going on?

Edited February 8, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

"What would an stranger looking for healing therapy think of The Tao Bums if they happen to click on the Dependent Origination thread"

 

I dunno. Do you think a stranger looking for healing therapy would click on TTB's at all?

 

I suggest not confuddling healing with moralism, then many people might be happy

 

Personally, when I found TTB's, I think I remember looking for "qi-gong side effects" and then... ta-daaaa.

 

Trying doing a Google search and see how often you turn up a TTB's post.

[goldisheavy]

Drew Hempel has been exiled?

 

Nice enough guy but he would pollute threads with a lot of his weird personal views.

 

Right.... weird personal views? Pot, kettle? Need a mirror? You're as insane as anyone I've ever seen. You're ignorant and off the wall and completely useless in a discussion. Instead of explaining anything you spend most of your time uselessly posturing, like "Yes, I told you so" or like "Yes, it is" and other inane one-liners of that sort. You add absolutely nothing of value to this forum. So of all people, you can't be seriously trying to criticize Drew for being crazy.

 

I also thought some of the things Drew was saying were kind of crazy, but many things were interesting. In any case, I didn't think Drew was in any way bad, and I did think he was sincere, and he'd never leave a stupid one-liner post like "yes I told you so" and he'd always try to explain things and post interesting links. That's worth a lot more than all of your idiotic posts combined, alwayson.

 

If I believed in moderation at all and if I thought anyone should be banned, it is you. Why? Not because you swear or violate decorum in any other way. But because you're an ignorant idiot who pretends to know something, who is unhelpful in the extreme, and who is prone to posturing without any substance to back it up.

 

As it stands, the only moderation I think is appropriate is to remove viagra advertisements and other spam of that sort. Anything else goes.

Edited February 8, 2011 by goldisheavy

[idquest]

So much for a Rabbit year

[Sunya]

Right.... weird personal views? Pot, kettle? Need a mirror? You're as insane as anyone I've ever seen. You're ignorant and off the wall and completely useless in a discussion. Instead of explaining anything you spend most of your time uselessly posturing, like "Yes, I told you so" or like "Yes, it is" and other inane one-liners of that sort. You add absolutely nothing of value to this forum. So of all people, you can't be seriously trying to criticize Drew for being crazy.

 

I also thought some of the things Drew was saying were kind of crazy, but many things were interesting. In any case, I didn't think Drew was in any way bad, and I did think he was sincere, and he'd never leave a stupid one-liner post like "yes I told you so" and he'd always try to explain things and post interesting links. That's worth a lot more than all of your idiotic posts combined, alwayson.

 

If I believed in moderation at all and if I thought anyone should be banned, it is you. Why? Not because you swear or violate decorum in any other way. But because you're an ignorant idiot who pretends to know something, who is unhelpful in the extreme, and who is prone to posturing without any substance to back it up.

 

As it stands, the only moderation I think is appropriate is to remove viagra advertisements and other spam of that sort. Anything else goes.

 

I love your honesty man, and I agree completely with you.

[Vajrahridaya]

I love your honesty man, and I agree completely with you.

:lol:

 

He's funny... he is very young I think. He did say 12 at one time. I'm not sure if he's that young though?

[goldisheavy]

:lol:

 

He's funny... he is very young I think. He did say 12 at one time. I'm not sure if he's that young though?

 

If he's seriously 12, I'd be willing to cut him way more slack. Being 12 is rough. I was 12 once. But if he's older than 21, then I stand by everything I just said above.

[Vajrahridaya]

If he's seriously 12, I'd be willing to cut him way more slack. Being 12 is rough. I was 12 once. But if he's older than 21, then I stand by everything I just said above.

 

Yup... he certainly is difficult.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Right.... weird personal views? Pot, kettle? Need a mirror? You're as insane as anyone I've ever seen. You're ignorant and off the wall and completely useless in a discussion. Instead of explaining anything you spend most of your time uselessly posturing, like "Yes, I told you so" or like "Yes, it is" and other inane one-liners of that sort. You add absolutely nothing of value to this forum. So of all people, you can't be seriously trying to criticize Drew for being crazy.

 

 

Oh I dunno, he's taught me a lot about 'Robert the Bruce' the OBE guy. Actually I'm not sure I've got the name right, might be Bruce Boxleitner or Robert Bob, fuck I don't know. But in any case I do know that that guy is practically a God, and the final word on absolutely anything spiritual....or otherwise I should imagine.

 

So much for a Rabbit year

 

Year of the Rabid might be more appropriate.