So, what if we are not good people?

[KCHooligan]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

Edited February 8, 2011 by KCHooligan

[Aaron]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

 

Hello KC,

 

Someone tricked you. Tao does not say we are good by nature, but rather that we have an original nature. Our original nature has nothing to do with good or bad or morality or virtue, but rather an innate being that exists when we are born. The ego-self is developed because of the society we are raised in, our ability to function in modern society requires that we develop an identity that is separate from others. As long as you continue to see yourself as yourself, then you will continue to view your actions in regards to how they benefit you. This requires selfishness.

 

I repeat this idea a lot, because I believe it is important that people understand it. The truth of the matter is that you are not your ego-self, a passenger within a vehicle, but you are the vehicle. You are your hair, fingernails, heart, and blood. You are your lungs breathing, your heart beating, and even your stomach digesting.

 

Somewhere else I made this analogy and it is appropriate here as well. Your stomach has bacteria in it that helps you to digest food. These microscopic organisms are required for a healthy digestive system. Now doctors will refer to this bacteria as being separate from you, that they are separate lifeforms, but that isn't the truth, in fact they are the body, and without them the body does not function.

 

When we view ourselves as separate beings, we tend to be awed by the shear enormity of the universe. We view ourselves as tiny microscopic organisms, yet we miss a very important fact. We are here in this universe serving a purpose. We are not simply a part of the universe, we are the universe. Everything that exists is connected to us and is required for us to exist. When you begin to see this, not simply on an intellectual level, but on a spiritual level, what you come away with is a deep experience of familiarity.

 

You are not simply you, but you are It and I am It. We are not separate parts of It, but the whole of It, because me and you serve a purpose for It. The trick is to start seeing yourself more as It, than a part of It. Even more important than this you must love you, because even if you understand that you are It, if you do not love you, you can never love It.

 

People have this idea that compassion starts by doing good for someone else, but the truth is compassion starts by loving yourself for who you are, regardless of who you are, regardless of whether you are what your parents wanted you to be, or if you ended up being the person you wanted to be. You have to love yourself unconditionally, mistakes and all, and then if you're sincere in this love, you can start to love others. You'll understand that those moments of charity are moments when you express your love for all of creation, for It, because you love It, by simply loving that small piece of It which is you.

 

Don't kick yourself because you recognize you are selfish, be happy that you do recognize it, because the simple fact that you recognize it means that you can change this part of you. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue to try to be loving and compassionate to others, but rather that sometimes you need to fake it until you make it. Keep being loving and compassionate in your actions and one day you'll wake up and find that these actions are not being forced, but rather are occurring spontaneously from that original nature that exists within you, that nature that tells you, you are It and It is beautiful and ugly, cruel and compassionate, it is the flower that blooms in spring and the tree that withers and dies in the fire.

 

You will never be perfect or free from emotions, you'll never be a completely good person, but what you might find one day is that the person you wake up and look at in the mirror is someone that you can love and by loving that person you'll find you can love It again. (Now I'll tell you a secret, that person that loves It is already within you and once you start looking for him again, it's only a matter of time until you find him.)

 

Aaron

Edited February 8, 2011 by Twinner

[goldisheavy]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

 

Very good! Selflessness is just a more evolved, more refined, better looking, wiser selfishness. So if you continue to be selfish in progressively wiser and wiser ways, you'll benefit yourself and everyone around you. Consider what it means to be a human? Are you only a human or are you also humanity? What is human without humanity?

 

If you can see that you are humanity as much as you are human, then selflessness starts to make more sense.

[The Observer]

Wow Twinner that was beautiful

[hagar]

I second Twinner here.

 

On the same note, my own experience has taught me that its impossible to try to be a good person and be honest at the same time. Its just not so.

 

Beyond the relativistic notions of good and bad, actually being "good" is not being good. Its sometimes being "bad" and sometimes your conditioning is so strong it really doesn't matter what you percieve yourself to be.

 

99% of the actions we perform in life are pro survival or procreation. Or explained within the Buddhist paradigm; seeking pleasure and happiness and avoiding pain and death. These forces are just a reaction to having a body. So we suffer.

 

A Norwegian philospher stated that a good action is good only when it is done based on the inherent natural urge to do it; it has to come from a different place than our contidioning. So if you look at a flower, remembering that stepping on something beautiful is bad, you are not far from the person who just steps on it without a thought. And closer to the act of destroying the flower by stepping on it intentionally than you might believe.

If you spontaneously avoid the flower because you percieve directly, without thought of gain or loss, good or bad, your action is good in the true sense.

 

Bottom line is, honestly acting from our deepest heart, with complete sincerity should be the goal. That forces us to let go of control, of others opinion and our own judgement.

The consequence is that we are forced to not know what our next action would be. Then we could say we are acting in accordance with the Dao.

 

But to live like that? Nearly impossible, no?

 

h

[Marblehead]

Wow Twinner that was beautiful

 

I second that!

 

Oops! It was already seconded.

 

I third that!

Edited February 8, 2011 by Marblehead

[The Observer]

I second Twinner here.

 

On the same note, my own experience has taught me that its impossible to try to be a good person and be honest at the same time. Its just not so.

 

Beyond the relativistic notions of good and bad, actually being "good" is not being good. Its sometimes being "bad" and sometimes your conditioning is so strong it really doesn't matter what you percieve yourself to be.

 

99% of the actions we perform in life are pro survival or procreation. Or explained within the Buddhist paradigm; seeking pleasure and happiness and avoiding pain and death. These forces are just a reaction to having a body. So we suffer.

 

A Norwegian philospher stated that a good action is good only when it is done based on the inherent natural urge to do it; it has to come from a different place than our contidioning. So if you look at a flower, remembering that stepping on something beautiful is bad, you are not far from the person who just steps on it without a thought. And closer to the act of destroying the flower by stepping on it intentionally than you might believe.

If you spontaneously avoid the flower because you percieve directly, without thought of gain or loss, good or bad, your action is good in the true sense.

 

Bottom line is, honestly acting from our deepest heart, with complete sincerity should be the goal. That forces us to let go of control, of others opinion and our own judgement.

The consequence is that we are forced to not know what our next action would be. Then we could say we are acting in accordance with the Dao.

 

But to live like that? Nearly impossible, no?

 

h

 

I always felt the key is to be good whenever possible. If you happen to make a mistake or inadvertently hurt someone, make peace with that/them and not be burdened by guilt.

[suninmyeyes]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

Everything is under some sort of law of the attraction and it all depends on individual and what s/he is likes/loves.

Being "good" and "selfless"(in my universe) is more and more equating with being comfortable in recent times and it feels attractive.

Selfishnes does hurt(as you say),it is wrong shape that fits like a shoe that is too small.Forced selfishness is a wrong shoe on a wrong foot.

[三江源]

I second Twinner here.

 

On the same note, my own experience has taught me that its impossible to try to be a good person and be honest at the same time. Its just not so.

 

Beyond the relativistic notions of good and bad, actually being "good" is not being good. Its sometimes being "bad" and sometimes your conditioning is so strong it really doesn't matter what you percieve yourself to be.

 

99% of the actions we perform in life are pro survival or procreation. Or explained within the Buddhist paradigm; seeking pleasure and happiness and avoiding pain and death. These forces are just a reaction to having a body. So we suffer.

 

A Norwegian philospher stated that a good action is good only when it is done based on the inherent natural urge to do it; it has to come from a different place than our contidioning. So if you look at a flower, remembering that stepping on something beautiful is bad, you are not far from the person who just steps on it without a thought. And closer to the act of destroying the flower by stepping on it intentionally than you might believe.

If you spontaneously avoid the flower because you percieve directly, without thought of gain or loss, good or bad, your action is good in the true sense.

 

Bottom line is, honestly acting from our deepest heart, with complete sincerity should be the goal. That forces us to let go of control, of others opinion and our own judgement.

The consequence is that we are forced to not know what our next action would be. Then we could say we are acting in accordance with the Dao.

 

But to live like that? Nearly impossible, no?

 

h

 

Interesting.How so impossible? To be connected with your deepest heart.

To be authentic.

 

If actions cannot be in accord with what one feels to be one's full authenticity due to the endless concatenation of events that create our circumstances.. if one knows and feels the authentic, yet by force of circumstance chooses that one cannot be, in action, fully authentic, this is just being human, in the best possible way. This is refinement.

Embodying authenticity does not equate to acting it out regardless of others sensibilities.

 

Authenticity is an inner process.

 

It is really only those starting out and feeling their way in the world that need to foist their authenticity on others innoportunely and lack the skill to know when to show compassion, when to navigate and when to cascade.

 

How is it not possible to be a good person and be honest at the same time... if you are honest with yourself and honest to the degree life can accommodate at any given time.

[KCHooligan]

Finding some good feedback here. Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I'm very much in agreeance that goodness is just as bad when forced as forced badness. I think back to Tao Te Ching, where it states:

 

"When the great Tao is forgotten,

goodness and piety appear."

 

-Mitchell trans. Tao Te Ching

 

I just get real helpless feeling when I feel I'm not able to see things for what they are. Like I'm driving on the freeway with a blind-fold on!

[orb]

I second that!

 

Oops! It was already seconded.

 

I third that!

 

 

Daaamn Twinner, not bad....not bad at all!

Thank you.

Very refreshing

[Birch]

its impossible to try to be a good person and be honest at the same time. Its just not so.

 

I think this is where silence is very very useful

 

I don't know what being a good person is. I do know what trying to be a good person is and IME that often falls very short of what anyone wants.

 

I'm fuddling about with working on "doing the right thing". Certainly IME being under no obligation to "be" good is helpful towards that end.

[Aaron]

Finding some good feedback here. Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I'm very much in agreeance that goodness is just as bad when forced as forced badness. I think back to Tao Te Ching, where it states:

 

"When the great Tao is forgotten,

goodness and piety appear."

 

-Mitchell trans. Tao Te Ching

 

I just get real helpless feeling when I feel I'm not able to see things for what they are. Like I'm driving on the freeway with a blind-fold on!

 

Hello KC,

 

No one likes to feel helpless, but there's no need for you to feel this way. First lets look at that passage you qouted... "When the great Tao is forgotten, goodness and piety appear." Now some might debate whether or not this is an accurate translation, but I think it's accurate enough for us to get an idea of what these lines mean. Now when you read these lines and apply a value to Tao, then what you come away with is this idea that Tao is the ultimate goodness, but that's not accurate either, Tao is the way things work or as Lao Tzu is implying, the way things are supposed to work. When people are not working in harmony, or living in harmony, then they are not living according to Tao, and because they're not living according to Tao, they must come up with another way to work, hence good and piety arise.

 

Now think about this, if good and piety did not arise, what would arise in it's place? I wont answer that question, just think about it. My belief is that good and piety arise because it's the next best thing to Tao. It's a second resort, a way for people to live together in at least a semblance of harmony. It's not that these things are inherently bad, but rather a way for people who have developed ego-selves to live with one another.

 

Now the key here is not to knock good and piety, but rather to see them for what they are. Good and piety are value systems that we place on our actions in order to understand what is acceptable and unacceptable in a ego-self world. If they weren't in place the whole ego-self paradigm would fall down upon itself. This is why I am a firm believer that there never will be world peace or universal happiness, there will never be a utopia, because these things don't exist.

 

Nature is not sentimental. Things happen that can hurt us and help us, but the key is to see that these things happen, not because there is a God above that is out to get us or even worse, doesn't care, but rather because that's the way It is. Now when one develops an ego-self what happens is that we begin to realize the finite existence of that ego-self, it can't exist forever, in essence we will die.

 

Death is a great motivator. It's our fear of death that causes us to strive to be all we can be, to provide for those we wont be able to provide for later and also to try and figure out a way for us to escape it, whether that's coming up with a theory of reincarnation or believing that if we're good well end up in paradise. Now as ego-selves we all have that notion of death in the back of our minds, it gnaws at us. It's there even when we don't believe it's there. Now I say if you are afraid of dieing, then embrace that fear! Don't run from it or hide from it, just say, "I don't want to die!" And be done with it.

 

But if it was that easy, you'd see a ton of people who would no longer show up for work or go to church, or even buy video games, because the motivation for those things would be gone. We would no longer try to enjoy life as much as we can, in order to escape this idea of death, but rather we would simply just live life on life's terms.

 

So how does one escape this idea, this notion of finiteness, this need to get things right? Well the simplest way is to understand that death, even if it is simply the end of it all, is a natural part of life. You can't have birth without death, it would be impossible for any universe to support life that continued to procreate and never died out, it's a necessity. In the same way life would not be the same without procreation, that moment of wonder when you enter this world for the first time and see all the marvelous things the world has to offer. We need death.

 

But then if we look at death and see it for what it is, then what do we do? Well we recognize that we are It. We never really die. It will go on forever. Our fear of death stems from the idea that we are separate from this universe, that we are individual souls on a vast turbulent ocean, when in fact we are the molecules that make up that ocean. No our ego-selves wont continue, but the world will. Does this mean that we will come back as something else? Maybe, I mean, if we die and are buried and our bodies decay and fertilize the tree above us, aren't we that tree? If a mother eats the fruit from that tree, doesn't that mean we are the child within her as well? We aren't our ego-selves anymore, but we aren't dead, not in the literal sense, in fact our bodies haven't ceased to exist, they are only existing in a different way.

 

I wish that you could see the world the way I do. I wish that you could understand that all these doubts and worries you cling to are nothing more than dust in the wind, but I can't make you understand anything. I can tell you what's wrong and right until I'm blue in the face, but in order for you to get this, you have to be willing to work towards getting it. You have to be willing to give up everything you've been told is so dear, this idea of self and separateness and see beyond all that. You have to recognize on an intrinsic level that life is more than what you are experiencing right now, that the entirety of existence is the Tao and that the Tao is not separate from anything, because it is the source of all creation and exists within us and is us, just as we are It.

 

If you want to really stop feeling helpless, understand that all your worries don't change anything. That all these illusions of control are simply that, illusions. Recognize that Tao is and whether we are working in accordance with what we believe Tao is, or whether we work to further good and piety, it doesn't change a thing.

 

Tomorrow we could all wake up and this world could be destroyed by a meteor from space and that wouldn't change a thing. We would all still be here, just not the way we've been taught is the right way to be here. Our existence is not just guaranteed, but inevitable.

 

The best thing we can do for ourselves and others is to appreciate this world for what it is. The best thing we can do is to stop worrying about accumulating more and more and just be happy with what we have. It is understanding that our wants are not our needs and that our needs are not our wants that allow us to appreciate this ego-self world we are a part of, but it is knowing that we are so much more than the ego-self that will inevitably grant us peace from all these desires.

 

Well I hope that helps a bit. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

 

Peace be with you.

 

Aaron

Edited February 9, 2011 by Twinner

[Red Pheonix]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

 

I think it's great that you're aware of how you can be, most people can't see themselves for their own stink; every single person reading this has been guilty of it at one time or another... it's called pride and it kicks our asses!

 

There are many scholastic, dogmatic and technical approaches that can be taken to addressing this topic, but I think the most practical approach is the simplicity of meditation. It is our selfishness that prevents us from meditating, it's our selfishness that prevents us from experiencing things because we are focused inwards. Meditation is one of the greatest tools in resolving this. How many people here can sit down to meditate and instantly find stillness in their minds and hearts? Even those who have mastered meditation know that there are days when they have to go back to cleaning out the old emotion closet.

 

Here is how I use the tool in a larger scope, this is one way you can get deeper and start to resolve some of the issues within.

 

First lets explore 'why' we are introverted. It all goes back to our desires and attachments. If you had no desire and no attachments you would be perfectly happy to sit peacefully and bask in the radiance of the universe. Desire its self leads to things like a feeling of entitlement, we then become attached to ideas and wants; many times we don't even realize that these things are inside of us.

 

Now that we understand where these things come from, let's establish some mechanisms to help us pinpoint our issues. I have 2 suggestions. 1st, pay attention to where you mind goes when you meditate! Often times you'll see patterns in the things you fall back to, observe yourself and make notes... in time this will lead you to the root which is always desire. 2nd, we speak our attachments! Listen to yourself and contemplate on the things that come from your mouth. You can also use this tool with other people; if you want to know what's in someones heart just be quiet and let them speak... they will show you everything that they are attached to.

 

If you are able to see these things in yourself then you are most likely capable of letting them go. This can be hard in some situations because we desire resolution and feel entitled to a particular outcome. These are things that only bind us though, it is the weight of judgement that makes our heart heavy. If I have an issue that I absolutely cannot find resolve for, I do a little ceremony to let it go. For instance, perhaps I place the problem on paper in writing, then meditate and in my meditation I go to a place of light where I can give this thing up. Then in the future, if my mind goes back to this issue I simply recall the meditative state of my ceremony and tap into the peace I had. Do this a couple of times and the issue will go away... it works wonderfully!

 

This very issue is of the highest importance from an Internal Alchemy perspective because it is the key to being child like! A child does not see the world with predefined expectations as adults do; they are able to observe the great mystery and experience it in greater truth. If you want to attain things like the secret of the golden flower, you have to be a vessel capable of having peace and balance within; to find that place where the universe can reveal its self to you. Everything will be given to you if you are open to receive it, but you are not open if you already have a preconceived idea. You're certainly not open if you can't stop thinking about yourself and your own problems. In the end we can come to a place where we have no concern for ourselves and the Tao is expressed in our very essence

[hagar]

Interesting.How so impossible? To be connected with your deepest heart.

To be authentic.

 

If actions cannot be in accord with what one feels to be one's full authenticity due to the endless concatenation of events that create our circumstances.. if one knows and feels the authentic, yet by force of circumstance chooses that one cannot be, in action, fully authentic, this is just being human, in the best possible way. This is refinement.

Embodying authenticity does not equate to acting it out regardless of others sensibilities.

 

Authenticity is an inner process.

 

It is really only those starting out and feeling their way in the world that need to foist their authenticity on others innoportunely and lack the skill to know when to show compassion, when to navigate and when to cascade.

 

How is it not possible to be a good person and be honest at the same time... if you are honest with yourself and honest to the degree life can accommodate at any given time.

 

I see what you mean. But please elaborate on what you mean by "cascade".

 

What I did meant above dictates a different perception of where authentic action springs from.

In all cultivation there lies some degree of duality, of separation from our true nature. In this respect, we should of all attempt to let go of egoic needs and act as selflessly as possible. What I'm pointing to is the fact that most of our striving towards being good is denying the very truth of what is allready in fruition in us.

 

So we end up in this constant struggle with our baser emotions, needs and desires. In trying to be good, we'll never get there. Much in the same way that trying to meditate well will never get you there. I see many practitioners, including myself, really doing harm to themselves by not affirming their real needs or emotions, due to their unwanted or base qualities. A whole array of agendas hides under the cloak of "spiritual" activity, like meditation: supressing emotion, compensating for lack of self esteem, feeling special, wanting recognition, seeking bliss and pleasure, running away from uncomfortable life situations. What they really should use their precious time doing was to be honest. Many would then stop cultivation. I did at times.

 

Being authentic does not mean free expression. "Free" meaning unleashing all bottled up emotion or impulse. That's just action out your conditioning, and very unfree. Authentic action is letting another intelligence take over, guiding our actions. When this happens, we are not in the driver seat anymore. Its actually very lonely and scary. And sometimes it can hurt, sometimes it can be irrational, sometimes boring, sometimes brilliant, even stupid. But all these labels are based on the social context it is placed in. Not the truth of the action. Most of the time, I am unable to rest in that space. But when I do, it takes on strange forms.

 

On a retreat once, I really hurt a lady that was struggling with chronic illness, and was constantly talking about how she was not able to get better. I suddenly blurted out: "Maybe you should just give up". It just came out, and I saw how hurt she became. She confided in me and I stepped all over her. But it was the truth; only giving up would help her. It was not my intention to be bad or good. It just happened.

 

Almost like the truth uses you to express itself. Is it good in the conventional sense?

Sometimes not. Is it in alignment with the Dao? Only the effect will indicate it.

[Everything]

I know I'm well worse off than the average person in terms of selfishness. I desire change, that's why I'm studying the Tao Te Ching. I am curious though. It states when in accord with Tao, you're good by nature. What if you're not though? I always feel I'm betraying myself when doing "overly-generous" things with my time. Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao. Or might I, when all said and done, just be an ass at heart? I can't say I want to be more selfless for others, I'm so selfish I hurt myself in the process, so my desire to be selfless has selfish motives!

So, you have a strong sense how the environment treats you... Thats good. That also tends to make you bad in a way that it blinds you to how you treat that very same environment. You must find the balance between this "good" and "bad."

 

You're doing just fine, just balance your observations with a little more consciousness on how you treat the environment before making any decision in life.

 

Every decision should be win-win both for you and the environment. Good people loose and let the environment win, soon they will have nothing to give away anymore. Bad people tend to win and let the environment loose, soon they will have so much that the environment becomes destructive towards them.

 

BALANCE, thats in hamrony with the Tao.

[三江源]

I see what you mean. But please elaborate on what you mean by "cascade".

Well, when that word 'cascade' appeared I considered it momentarily, and then decided to let it stand, and see how it survived out there on it's own. I never used it before in this context, I wondered how you would respond to it. It suggest to me an elegant outflow, neither a deluge nor a trickle, something with it's own momentum which is fitting.

 

What I did meant above dictates a different perception of where authentic action springs from.

In all cultivation there lies some degree of duality, of separation from our true nature. In this respect, we should of all attempt to let go of egoic needs and act as selflessly as possible. What I'm pointing to is the fact that most of our striving towards being good is denying the very truth of what is allready in fruition in us.

 

So we end up in this constant struggle with our baser emotions, needs and desires. In trying to be good, we'll never get there. Much in the same way that trying to meditate well will never get you there. I see many practitioners, including myself, really doing harm to themselves by not affirming their real needs or emotions, due to their unwanted or base qualities. A whole array of agendas hides under the cloak of "spiritual" activity, like meditation: supressing emotion, compensating for lack of self esteem, feeling special, wanting recognition, seeking bliss and pleasure, running away from uncomfortable life situations. What they really should use their precious time doing was to be honest. Many would then stop cultivation. I did at times.

OK so what is coming out at me from here is the 'trying' aspect. it is the 'trying' that is the issue. Because that is not as refined as 'intent'. Do you feel that distinction? I think 'trying to be good' and 'intent to be good' come from quite different places in us. One has a 'should' in it and an 'aspiration' which immediately sets up a resistance within the psyche. The other is free from parental injunction and is a 'setting' - imagine a dial perhaps, that the shen can set, as we set a heating temperature.

 

Being authentic does not mean free expression. "Free" meaning unleashing all bottled up emotion or impulse. That's just action out your conditioning, and very unfree. Authentic action is letting another intelligence take over, guiding our actions. When this happens, we are not in the driver seat anymore. Its actually very lonely and scary. And sometimes it can hurt, sometimes it can be irrational, sometimes boring, sometimes brilliant, even stupid. But all these labels are based on the social context it is placed in. Not the truth of the action. Most of the time, I am unable to rest in that space. But when I do, it takes on strange forms.

 

On a retreat once, I really hurt a lady that was struggling with chronic illness, and was constantly talking about how she was not able to get better. I suddenly blurted out: "Maybe you should just give up". It just came out, and I saw how hurt she became. She confided in me and I stepped all over her. But it was the truth; only giving up would help her. It was not my intention to be bad or good. It just happened.

I laughed when I read your example. I would have said the same thing. That's not why I laughed. I laughed because you just gave a perfect example of what I meant by 'cascade'.

 

Almost like the truth uses you to express itself. Is it good in the conventional sense?

Sometimes not. Is it in alignment with the Dao? Only the effect will indicate it.

 

"Almost like the truth uses you to express itself" Yes, that's it. If your setting is in the certain spot, the truth cascades through. I dont know what "good in the conventional sense" is, really.

 

I just read through what you wrote and what I wrote and think I just said the same thing as you.

 

 

You didnt step all over her, not at all. You just showed her she could open the door of her cage. Who knows what she would do,once she stepped out.

 

xxx

[Non]

you're just a bad boy jerk that girls like....

[manitou]

Twinner, I recognize a channel when I hear one. That was one awesome moment you must have had.

 

I don't think there's goodness or badness to it at all. Just is-ness. If we want perfect clarity, we have the choice as to how much internal houseclearing we want to do. I liken it to barnacles growing inside a glass tube - a light wouldn't be able to shine down the tube without casting shadows. It is a process of elimination, in the end; an elimination of character defects that distort our view.

 

The choice is ours, always.

[KCHooligan]

Now, in hindsight, I was just suffering from inaction. To be clear, I'm not referring to 'non-doing', but literal inaction. We are beasts of purpose; I had spent a little too much time in leisure mode. This always fills my ego with shame, as I am happiest when in motion. Very good discussions though.

[hagar]

"Almost like the truth uses you to express itself" Yes, that's it. If your setting is in the certain spot, the truth cascades through. I dont know what "good in the conventional sense" is, really.

 

I just read through what you wrote and what I wrote and think I just said the same thing as you.

 

 

You didnt step all over her, not at all. You just showed her she could open the door of her cage. Who knows what she would do,once she stepped out.

 

xxx

 

It seems we are on the same note here. What I immediately feel is that the issue of intent is a tricky one, atleast for me. The ego uses all these subtle and cunning strategies to gain back control from what comes from a different source. Most times I have a hard time with it as I "try" as you say. How do we set up an intent, so that something deeper is able to express itself?

 

Letting go of control is scary. Mostly because it leaves us out there. And it often times runs counter to our familiar preferences, desires, dreams and plans. Letting go, atleast for me started a sort of grieving process, seeing alot of things I identified with go; old identities, habits, self conceptions, even things I really love to do. As a consequence, it made me backtrack abit =)

 

What you say about letting the Shen up I can connect to, but what did you mean by heating temperature?

 

h

[manitou]

Letting go of control is scary. Mostly because it leaves us out there. And it often times runs counter to our familiar preferences, desires, dreams and plans. Letting go, atleast for me started a sort of grieving process, seeing alot of things I identified with go; old identities, habits, self conceptions, even things I really love to do. As a consequence, it made me backtrack abit =)

 

 

Letting go is not difficult if you know what you're letting go to. If we see It all as One, then there is nothing to be frightened of. You're already there, and It is friendly.

 

Even looking at the current world situation, things changing so fast. There is a contingent of folks who are really scared by all this, thinks the caliphates are setting up now even as we speak. But when we truly let go and step way back, we can see that there is truly a rhyme and reason to everything that's happening; looking at anything historical in hindsight shows that the evolution occurs each and every time.

 

The same with us individually. We change, we evolve, we leave things behind, we find that our emotions don't hold as much sway over us as they used to; this is the tendency. It isn't to be feared; we come out of it much stronger, not buffeted around by conditions any more.

[Everything]

Now, in hindsight, I was just suffering from inaction. To be clear, I'm not referring to 'non-doing', but literal inaction. We are beasts of purpose; I had spent a little too much time in leisure mode. This always fills my ego with shame, as I am happiest when in motion. Very good discussions though.

I've never understood non-doing, but it does seem good. To die in order for your fellow earthlings to live. It seems good to die, be passive, do nothing. How could death disrupt harmony? I have no idea what people mean with that.

 

About inaction, I'm that way aswell. Always self conscious about my own behaviour alone, how I treat others. Putting the weight of the entire world on my shoulders, and then complaining and becoming a passive rat. Thats a weakness you must learn to deal with. Try to be decisive, even when the decisions are hard to make. It is better to do something wrong then to not do it at all in my experience. But this has nothing to do with your behaviour being "good" or "bad." It does relate in a way that "good" people tend to have passiveness as their weakness and "bad" people have impulsiveness as their weaknes. Balance, my friend... Balance.

 

Harmony with Tao, freedom.

[Aaron]

I've never understood non-doing, but it does seem good. To die in order for your fellow earthlings to live. It seems good to die, be passive, do nothing. How could death disrupt harmony? I have no idea what people mean with that.

 

About inaction, I'm that way aswell. Always self conscious about my own behaviour alone, how I treat others. Putting the weight of the entire world on my shoulders, and then complaining and becoming a passive rat. Thats a weakness you must learn to deal with. Try to be decisive, even when the decisions are hard to make. It is better to do something wrong then to not do it at all in my experience. But this has nothing to do with your behaviour being "good" or "bad." It does relate in a way that "good" people tend to have passiveness as their weakness and "bad" people have impulsiveness as their weaknes. Balance, my friend... Balance.

 

Harmony with Tao, freedom.

 

Hello Everything,

 

In my own mind non-action isn't about not taking action, but rather not interfering, not forcing our will upon others. So to explain it in it's most simple terms, it's about learning to live in harmony with others. There is a time for action and non-action, the trick it to learn when to do either.

 

Aaron

 

edit- A simpler example would be to view yourself as existing on a boat in a river. You can either try to fight against the current or learn to travel with it. At times you may approach a rock and need to change course, so you do, but if you don't want to struggle so much on your trip down the river, then you let the river do the work when you can.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Twinner

[gendao]

Should I assume that what I feel to be my true nature is just my "ego-self" attempting to keep control of my actions instead of following Tao.

Well, if you have to ask if you've found and are following your true nature...then you haven't.

 

This is similar to the New Agey advice to just "follow your heart." Sounds great...but how do you actually do that??

 

The catch to these is unblocking your connection to these aspects first...which is a whole task in itself. So, you can't just simply follow these tenets off the bat.

Edited February 13, 2011 by vortex