Regarding Shaktipat

[fiveelementtao]

Here's something else for people to chew on regarding Kundalini... Indian spiritual sects are varied. There is not a catholic Hindu faith. Some worship Vishnu, Some worship Shiva, Some worship Shakti (Kundalini Ma), etc... Many disagree with each other. There are varied understandings of Kundalini. Indians are as likely to misunderstand or project their personal agendas onto religions as anyone else... So, here are some alternate traditional Hindu, tantric understandings of Kundalini Ma.

 

There is a Shaivite tantric sect that prays to Kundalini Ma. Do you know what they call Her? They call Her "Whore."

 

This is because they understand that Her job (the personality) is to unite with pure consciousness (Shiva.) So, everytime the kundalini rises and opens another chakra, She becomes enamored with another false suitor. For instance, in the Heart Chakra, Kundalini becomes enamored with Religion. She mistakes religious activities for true spirituality. such as spreading religion and doing good deeds like feed the poor. This happens in a different way when every chakra is opened by Kundalini Ma. In each case, there is always a concept that Kundalini mistakes for true Spirit. Then after she learns that whatever she has become attached to is a false lover, she discards it for the next chakra and it begins again until true union (yoga) with Lord Shiva (consciousness) is acheived. It is not until She reaches the crown chakra where she sees Her true husband Shiva that she is reunited with Him and the Soul is liberated and...Kundalini dies.... If Kundalini does not die, She is reborn into another body, She takes the Soul with her and the person starts where they left off in the last life. This is why some people have different siddhis....

 

Therefore, according to this particular Tantric sect, any experiences whether they be physical, emotional, energetic, psychological or even spiritual are considered to be Kundalini Ma having an illicit affair and cheating on Her Husband...

 

The goal of traditional Tantric Yoga is not about energy experiences. It is to seek to satisfy all desires so that they may be removed. Those yogis who follow the tantric path understand this as they seek to satisfy their energetic desires. The trap is that one can become trapped in these experiences and believe they have achieved enlightenment...

[Vajrahridaya]

I've heard this perspective, and it's true...

 

But there's deeper.

 

Thanks for relating this though!

[C T]

 

The goal of traditional Tantric Yoga is not about energy experiences. It is to seek to satisfy all desires so that they may be removed. Those yogis who follow the tantric path understand this as they seek to satisfy their energetic desires. The trap is that one can become trapped in these experiences and believe they have achieved enlightenment...

Very insightful indeed. Thank you for taking the time to share this. I am sure many here will find such an impartation of knowledge quite useful.

 

You are quite right to state that the goal of Tantra is not (exclusively?) about energy experiences - but i do not agree that the yogi seeks to satisfy all desires so that these may be removed. Satisfaction implies going after desirable experiences - this is not the case traditionally.

 

The yogi fears not desires because there is nothing inherently right/wrong with having desires - what is achieved thru renunciative yogic practices is to see all desires as having one essence, one taste - thru this deeper seeing, cravings (tanha) for what is enjoyable, and aversions towards what is repulsive is transcended. This is why in some yogic traditions they work so much with filth, death, rot and decay, corpses, human skulls, bones etc.

 

Liberation from being dualistically bound is attained when the yogi no longer differentiates between conditional/impermanent aspects of good/tasteful/sweet/ecstatic/sensual/pleasurable experiences etc. and each of their opposite arisings. Union follows, usually effortlessly. All experiences then naturally transform into bliss. In fact, in the higher tantras, the more negative the experience or emotion, the greater the potential for transformation. Without the attainment of One Taste, this is not possible.

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to tirelessly share so much experiential knowledge - i am always learning from your posts, so please keep it up.

[ShaktiMama]

Here's something else for people to chew on regarding Kundalini... Indian spiritual sects are varied. There is not a catholic Hindu faith. Some worship Vishnu, Some worship Shiva, Some worship Shakti (Kundalini Ma), etc... Many disagree with each other. There are varied understandings of Kundalini. Indians are as likely to misunderstand or project their personal agendas onto religions as anyone else... So, here are some alternate traditional Hindu, tantric understandings of Kundalini Ma.

 

There is a Shaivite tantric sect that prays to Kundalini Ma. Do you know what they call Her? They call Her "Whore."

 

This is because they understand that Her job (the personality) is to unite with pure consciousness (Shiva.) So, everytime the kundalini rises and opens another chakra, She becomes enamored with another false suitor. For instance, in the Heart Chakra, Kundalini becomes enamored with Religion. She mistakes religious activities for true spirituality. such as spreading religion and doing good deeds like feed the poor. This happens in a different way when every chakra is opened by Kundalini Ma. In each case, there is always a concept that Kundalini mistakes for true Spirit. Then after she learns that whatever she has become attached to is a false lover, she discards it for the next chakra and it begins again until true union (yoga) with Lord Shiva (consciousness) is acheived. It is not until She reaches the crown chakra where she sees Her true husband Shiva that she is reunited with Him and the Soul is liberated and...Kundalini dies.... If Kundalini does not die, She is reborn into another body, She takes the Soul with her and the person starts where they left off in the last life. This is why some people have different siddhis....

 

Therefore, according to this particular Tantric sect, any experiences whether they be physical, emotional, energetic, psychological or even spiritual are considered to be Kundalini Ma having an illicit affair and cheating on Her Husband...

 

The goal of traditional Tantric Yoga is not about energy experiences. It is to seek to satisfy all desires so that they may be removed. Those yogis who follow the tantric path understand this as they seek to satisfy their energetic desires. The trap is that one can become trapped in these experiences and believe they have achieved enlightenment...

 

 

Ah, the Madonna (Goddess) -whore complex... Men resenting the sexual freedom (autonomy, power) of the female....I could go on. Can you speak of this with a positive spin, without the patriarchal culture prejudice? Shakti goes where She wills..... If you took away the whore aspect then what would this journey represent? If this was a masculine energy how would it be perceived? Let's get away from using/ blaming the Feminine for our failing to advance on the Spiritual Path. Another learning is in this....

 

I would posit that Religion is a Masculine creation.

 

s

[Jetsun]

Out of curiosity why is Kundalini considered female? if what I have experienced is kundalini it doesn't feel very yin

[fiveelementtao]

Ah, the Madonna (Goddess) -whore complex... Men resenting the sexual freedom (autonomy, power) of the female....I could go on. Can you speak of this with a positive spin, without the patriarchal culture prejudice? Shakti goes where She wills..... If you took away the whore aspect then what would this journey represent? If this was a masculine energy how would it be perceived? Let's get away from using/ blaming the Feminine for our failing to advance on the Spiritual Path. Another learning is in this....

 

I would posit that Religion is a Masculine creation.

 

s

 

 

Hmmm, This is only ONE traditional Indian Yogic tradition. If you don't like it, go talk to them. I am just being a messenger. I have not said whether I agree or disagree with it. I share it here to give another traditional perspective on Kundalini.

 

In terms of a positive spin: I believe that if one can meditate on their concept of Kundalini without judging it, identifying with it, anthropomorphizing it or seeking to compete or defend against it, it can in fact bring enlightenment. That is the whole point of Kundalini practices? Yes? detachment from illusion?

 

Identifying a centuries old, traditional tantric shakti sect from India as being patriarchal is in fact bringing Western cultural prejudice and imposing it onto an Indian concept.

 

As for me, I'm not blaming anything feminine. If you have done ANY investigation into what I teach you will find that the feminine is the FIRST thing I introduce my students to and is the basis of what I teach...

 

But the fact that you have taken this teaching personally tells me that you may not have read the thread carefully or with detachment...

 

One aspect of Tantric mysticism that many Westerners do not seem to understand is that EVERYTHING including all the gods, goddesses are seen as projections of the self. Anytime anyone worships any being or concept as being something other than their own projection, they are in fact trapping themselves within their own illusory psychological projections. One of the goals of tantric practices is to understand this while engaging in it. To say that Shakti goes where She will, in terms of traditional Tantric teachings is to capitulate to one's own ego and choose to be ruled by one's servant. The highest tantric understanding of Shakti is achieve a state of detached enlightenment to say, "Shakti is me and She goes where I will." If someone does not understand that this is the goal, then, In traditional tantric understanding, they are trapped in their own delusion and are worshipping their own ego and in fact are seeking to be trapped by it....

 

Again. I am not saying whether or not I agree. This is traditional tantric understandings of Shakti...

[fiveelementtao]

Out of curiosity why is Kundalini considered female? if what I have experienced is kundalini it doesn't feel very yin

 

First let me say that I believe it is a mistake to try and understand Indian energy concepts with the same lens that we interpret Taoist energy concepts. Yin and Yang do not directly translate directly into East Indian concepts. I tried to do this for years and was unable to do so. IMO, I think those that do try to mix them together are diluting both traditions.

 

Having said that, perhaps one way to look at it is to look at the lava beneath the earth. We would all agree that it is fiery and still pure Earth...

[三江源]

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Edited April 5, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

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Edited April 5, 2015 by 三江源

[fiveelementtao]

Thanks cat, for that insight...

As I put in my first post, I said that these shaiviates worshiped shakti and prayed to her... It is important to note that Shiva does not call Shakti a whore. He would never do so... When she meets him in the crown they are united. Their love is not diminished.

 

This is not about human masculine and Feminine. If this teaching strikes some as offensive, that is because it is MEANT to do so in order to shock the person out of their self referential view of the world. This is another Tantric device to reveal our narcissism. When understood, it can bring Satori!

 

What these Shaivites are doing is seeking to understand that THEY are the ones whoring around when they take their sights off of the ultimate goal which is union of Consciousness and Self.

 

It is in fact quite beautiful, IMO, when looked at from distance...

 

We do have a searing split in our consciousness about women.

 

We do have searing splits in our consciousness about so many things, perhaps everything. Such is duality.

 

The experience of woman being both the mother and the object of lust is such fertile ground for spiritual evolution.

 

As I understand it the describing of Shakti in this way is the same as the role of temple whores - who were women who initiatated men, women beyond preference, women there to convey the arts of tantra as a sacred gift available to those deemed ready by the temple law. Women able to embody a sacred quality of universality and impersonality. As I understand it they were revered. As I understand it the whore essentially remained virgin, in the sense that she was 'untouched' ...on an inner level. The virgin whore was not split, need not be split in any woman within her own self, if her purity remains undefiled,no matter what external rituals she might choose.

 

So the 'whore' in this sense means to go where you are needed,initiating as you go,in your infinite bounty and creativity, untouched by what you do, and it is sacred and free from personal drivers. No contract involving personal connection.

Edited February 10, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[三江源]

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Edited April 5, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

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Edited April 5, 2015 by 三江源

[phore]

[Seadoggy]

oh my many Gods!!!!!

[Creation]

Out of curiosity why is Kundalini considered female? if what I have experienced is kundalini it doesn't feel very yin

 

As far as I understand Indian thought, Power, energy you might say, the agency of action, has always been considered to be feminine, corresponding to Consciousness being considered masculine. I think this is the root of considering Kundalini to be female.

 

Kali is an interesting lady. She is very un-feminine by social standards. But that is just the point, she is pure power, pure energy, the very primordial essence of all other Goddesses.

 

Still, assigning genders to things is not unambiguous. For example, in some cultures the sun is considered male and the moon female, but in other cultures the moon is considered male and the sun female.

 

And Shiva is considered the lord of dance.

[fiveelementtao]

 

Still, assigning genders to things is not unambiguous. For example, in some cultures the sun is considered male and the moon female, but in other cultures the moon is considered male and the sun female.

 

Excellent Point. In the Ancient Teutonic tradition, the Moon (Monne) is a male god whose name literally translates as "Mind." The English word "Man" is also from the same root word for Mind. The Sun is a female goddess called "Sowul" which is where we get the modern English word for Soul.

 

(Interesting Side Note: Some Siberian shamans also consider the Moon to be male and the Sun female...)

 

This is another reason why it is sometimes difficult if not impossible to simply transfer spiritual concepts between traditions. They don't always translate well.

[ShaktiMama]

Hmmm, This is only ONE traditional Indian Yogic tradition. If you don't like it, go talk to them. I am just being a messenger. I have not said whether I agree or disagree with it. I share it here to give another traditional perspective on Kundalini.

 

In terms of a positive spin: I believe that if one can meditate on their concept of Kundalini without judging it, identifying with it, anthropomorphizing it or seeking to compete or defend against it, it can in fact bring enlightenment. That is the whole point of Kundalini practices? Yes? detachment from illusion?

 

Identifying a centuries old, traditional tantric shakti sect from India as being patriarchal is in fact bringing Western cultural prejudice and imposing it onto an Indian concept.

 

As for me, I'm not blaming anything feminine. If you have done ANY investigation into what I teach you will find that the feminine is the FIRST thing I introduce my students to and is the basis of what I teach...

 

But the fact that you have taken this teaching personally tells me that you may not have read the thread carefully or with detachment...

 

One aspect of Tantric mysticism that many Westerners do not seem to understand is that EVERYTHING including all the gods, goddesses are seen as projections of the self. Anytime anyone worships any being or concept as being something other than their own projection, they are in fact trapping themselves within their own illusory psychological projections. One of the goals of tantric practices is to understand this while engaging in it. To say that Shakti goes where She will, in terms of traditional Tantric teachings is to capitulate to one's own ego and choose to be ruled by one's servant. The highest tantric understanding of Shakti is achieve a state of detached enlightenment to say, "Shakti is me and She goes where I will." If someone does not understand that this is the goal, then, In traditional tantric understanding, they are trapped in their own delusion and are worshipping their own ego and in fact are seeking to be trapped by it....

 

Again. I am not saying whether or not I agree. This is traditional tantric understandings of Shakti...

 

No, I am not taking this personally. No reason to do so but are you taking this personally. I am not challenging you personally.

 

What is the name of the One traditional yogic tradition, please?

 

We will butt heads on this because I don't limit myself to the traditional context of understanding kundalini as a sanskrit term. I will not speak further on this because then the yogic fundamentalists come and want to beat me over the head for wanting to expand the traditional understanding of Shakti and Kundalini. Let us be at peace.

 

Western cultural prejudice is patriarchal. We have yet to make much progress there. I have sat in enough diversity trainings to see how much farther we must go as a society to be free from the prison of male privilege.

 

No, I know nothing about what you teach. I have not investigated it. Are you thinking I am projecting on you my prejudices when I was talking about the paragraph you quoted? I don't even know you. I was curious about why you chose that paragraph because cultural context is important.

 

 

I think we miss deeper understandings if we use examples without examining other variables. For example, in the bible there is a passage that talks about heaping coals of fire on top of person's head. How that has been interpreted by modern christianity as there are legitimate reasons to do some kind of injury to someone. In the cultural context, back then coals were carried on top of people's heads in containers to go from one home's hearth to another home's hearth, to carry fire as hospitality offering and for survival purposes when the home fires went out.

 

Using morality as a teaching tool in a spiritual practice is a sticky proposition. IMO it is best to be avoided.

 

Masculine concept of spirituality tends to be vertical, exclusive, solitary. Feminine spirituality tends to be horizontal, inclusive, community based. There is a place for both to become one.

 

I think we do a disservice to the heritage of India to say there is only One yogic traditional path. There are many, many, many to choose from. It seems the same as saying there is only one traditional qigong path in China. There are thousands.

 

I can't say definitely what the one true purpose of kundalini awakening is. I can say what I say but there are different responses, different agreements depending on different schools. The goal of Tantra Yoga is enlightenment, yes? What is enlightenment?

 

s

 

My favorite yantra. Can you feel it shifting the energies inside you?

[Taomeow]

First let me say that I believe it is a mistake to try and understand Indian energy concepts with the same lens that we interpret Taoist energy concepts. Yin and Yang do not directly translate directly into East Indian concepts. I tried to do this for years and was unable to do so. IMO, I think those that do try to mix them together are diluting both traditions.

 

Having said that, perhaps one way to look at it is to look at the lava beneath the earth. We would all agree that it is fiery and still pure Earth...

 

Yin and yang are applicable to all phenomena, far as I've been able to discern.

 

They abide by a few simple rules. Here they are:

 

Nothing is yin by itself and nothing is yang by itself. Something is yin compared to something that is more yang, something is yang compared to something that is more yin. Something can be compared to itself at a different point of time and/or when engaged in a different process, and discerned as more yin or more yang at this point than it was or will be at some other point. E.g., a child of any gender is more yang than the same child will be seventy years later (no longer a child, of course, and no longer as yang as at seven.)

 

"Female" is a manifestation of yin compared to "male." No woman is "pure yin" by herself. No man is "pure yang" by himself. In a group of women, some will be more yin than others, and these others will be "yang" in comparison to the ones who are "more yin." In a group of energy phenomena, some will be more yin than others, but a change in the energy configuration will cause them to change their yin-yang potentials. Extreme yin transforms into yang, and extreme yang transforms into yin.

 

Kundalini is female. This female, when she is asleep, is very yin. Extremely yin -- silent, dormant, full of potentials, possibilities, blueprints for unfolding all folded in and hidden. If she is awakened abruptly, this creates perfect conditions for extreme yin flipping over into yang, which is the normal and natural behavior of these phenomena. Kundalini awakened gradually and gently is like a pregnant woman nurturing her future baby. Kundalini awakened suddenly is like a woman in labor -- more often than not premature and with the baby in the wrong position. A woman in labor is engaged in a yang process, that of externalizing the internal, realizing a potential, manifesting the unmanifest. This doesn't turn her into a man though. Just a woman who is, at this point, more yang than she herself was before.

 

Hope this helps.

[ShaktiMama]

Yin and yang are applicable to all phenomena, far as I've been able to discern.

 

They abide by a few simple rules. Here they are:

 

Nothing is yin by itself and nothing is yang by itself. Something is yin compared to something that is more yang, something is yang compared to something that is more yin. Something can be compared to itself at a different point of time and/or when engaged in a different process, and discerned as more yin or more yang at this point than it was or will be at some other point. E.g., a child of any gender is more yang than the same child will be seventy years later (no longer a child, of course, and no longer as yang as at seven.)

 

"Female" is a manifestation of yin compared to "male." No woman is "pure yin" by herself. No man is "pure yang" by himself. In a group of women, some will be more yin than others, and these others will be "yang" in comparison to the ones who are "more yin." In a group of energy phenomena, some will be more yin than others, but a change in the energy configuration will cause them to change their yin-yang potentials. Extreme yin transforms into yang, and extreme yang transforms into yin.

 

Kundalini is female. This female, when she is asleep, is very yin. Extremely yin -- silent, dormant, full of potentials, possibilities, blueprints for unfolding all folded in and hidden. If she is awakened abruptly, this creates perfect conditions for extreme yin flipping over into yang, which is the normal and natural behavior of these phenomena. Kundalini awakened gradually and gently is like a pregnant woman nurturing her future baby. Kundalini awakened suddenly is like a woman in labor -- more often than not premature and with the baby in the wrong position. A woman in labor is engaged in a yang process, that of externalizing the internal, realizing a potential, manifesting the unmanifest. This doesn't turn her into a man though. Just a woman who is, at this point, more yang than she herself was before.

 

Hope this helps.

 

nicely said....

 

s

[Birch]

Yin and yang are applicable to all phenomena, far as I've been able to discern.

 

They abide by a few simple rules. Here they are:

 

Nothing is yin by itself and nothing is yang by itself. Something is yin compared to something that is more yang, something is yang compared to something that is more yin. Something can be compared to itself at a different point of time and/or when engaged in a different process, and discerned as more yin or more yang at this point than it was or will be at some other point. E.g., a child of any gender is more yang than the same child will be seventy years later (no longer a child, of course, and no longer as yang as at seven.)

 

"Female" is a manifestation of yin compared to "male." No woman is "pure yin" by herself. No man is "pure yang" by himself. In a group of women, some will be more yin than others, and these others will be "yang" in comparison to the ones who are "more yin." In a group of energy phenomena, some will be more yin than others, but a change in the energy configuration will cause them to change their yin-yang potentials. Extreme yin transforms into yang, and extreme yang transforms into yin.

 

Kundalini is female. This female, when she is asleep, is very yin. Extremely yin -- silent, dormant, full of potentials, possibilities, blueprints for unfolding all folded in and hidden. If she is awakened abruptly, this creates perfect conditions for extreme yin flipping over into yang, which is the normal and natural behavior of these phenomena. Kundalini awakened gradually and gently is like a pregnant woman nurturing her future baby. Kundalini awakened suddenly is like a woman in labor -- more often than not premature and with the baby in the wrong position. A woman in labor is engaged in a yang process, that of externalizing the internal, realizing a potential, manifesting the unmanifest. This doesn't turn her into a man though. Just a woman who is, at this point, more yang than she herself was before.

 

Hope this helps.

[Birch]

Wonderful post Taomeow! Also pointing very nicely to the (IMO) more subtle sense of "duality" in Taoism as opposed to Logic-based approaches.

Loved it:-)

[fiveelementtao]

No Shaktimama, We will not butt heads.

 

I have no need to change you or your opinion. In fact this thread was not even directed at you. It was a response to someone's question about the difference between Qi and Kundalini... so why you felt the need to "Butt heads" is...well, unnecessary...

 

My beautiful, powerful sister... KAP is awesome and has helped many people. You are well respected on this board and I have no doubt you are a wonderful person, teacher and powerful practitioner...

 

But having said that...you do not have a monopoly on Kundalini teachings, traditional or otherwise... and others will occasionally share teachings that you do not agree with. I am one of those people and you simply can't go around butting heads with everyone who has a different experience than you do...

 

So, for you and I to have a reasonable discussion on Kundalini, we would have to FIRST agree on a definition of the word. We do not. So, any discussion would be filled with chaos and mutual misunderstanding and would be a waste of energy...

 

Listen, I had a similar joust with Santi a couple of years ago on TTBs about the nature of the definition of Kundalini. And, after many pages of going back and forth, we decided as gentlemen that he and I simply do not agree on the same definition of the word or purpose of Kundalini. And we decided like gentlemen to allow each other to have their own opinions... I am happy to have the same deal with you, but I have no desire to engage in intellectual debates...

 

As I have said, I have not even said whether or not I agree with this teaching. But, I do think it adds to the discussion.

 

As I have been doing for some time now, when someone asks me about reputable kundalini teachers, I will send them to you and Santi...

 

Blessings, to you, my sister... Keep up the good work...

Mike

[ShaktiMama]

No Shaktimama, We will not butt heads.

 

Blessings, to you, my sister... Keep up the good work...

Mike

 

Deal and done.

Blessing back at you, my brother.

 

s

[三江源]

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Edited April 5, 2015 by 三江源

[sifusufi]

When The Drummers Were Women

 

http://www.amazon.co...818#reader-link

 

I started this in the summer of 07', more history lessons than I could absorb at that time.