What's the difference between neigong and qigong?

[bodyoflight]

What is the difference between neigong and qigong and what's the differences between those two?

 

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

 

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

 

Looking forward to learning in this thread..

[Ya Mu]

What is the difference between neigong and qigong and what's the differences between those two?

 

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

 

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

 

Looking forward to learning in this thread..

I will give you an answer in practical terms and the history as I know it. I am not big on history, but here is what I can say.

There were many different exercises termed many different names when Master Hu Yao-Zhen with Liu Gui-Zhen and others decided to standardize the term as "Qi Gong". Grandmaster Hu Yaozhen is considered by many as the father of modern day qigong.

The communists decided to standardize "qigong" and the result is that quite a bit (most) qigong is nothing but calisthenic exercise.

 

Neigong is the internal static and dynamic cultivation of energy; but not only qi but also jing, and shen. Neigong is the true Taoist cultivation method.

 

Hu Yao-Zhen was known as "single finger can shake the world." He was my teacher's teacher.

[Maddie]

The communists decided to standardize "qigong" and the result is that quite a bit (most) qigong is nothing but calisthenic exercise.

 

Really, so you mean most of what you see them doing in the parks in the morning in China which they call Qigong is nothing more than calisthenics???

[Thunder_Gooch]

Really, so you mean most of what you see them doing in the parks in the morning in China which they call Qigong is nothing more than calisthenics???

 

yes

[Ya Mu]

Really, so you mean most of what you see them doing in the parks in the morning in China which they call Qigong is nothing more than calisthenics???

In the 40's or so there were only 7 major publicly taught forms. Now there are (2000???). So the answer is yes, MOST of what is called qigong today are "healthy exercises"; ie calisthenics.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Ya Mu

[thelerner]

I've heard the 2 being used relatively interchangeably. YaMu are you saying Neigong has little or no movement? Or is it movements have to be driven by chi and not just physical motions.

 

Also if there's little physical movement how do you get away from exercises becoming overly mental/visualization?

 

 

Thanks

Michael

[Ya Mu]

I've heard the 2 being used relatively interchangeably. YaMu are you saying Neigong has little or no movement? Or is it movements have to be driven by chi and not just physical motions.

 

Also if there's little physical movement how do you get away from exercises becoming overly mental/visualization?

 

 

Thanks

Michael

Static/Dynamic, hence Stillness-Movement Neigong is the art of dancing in the Wu Wei derived from stilling/removing Mind from the equation, absolutely "NO" to the mental/visualization. Neigong should have both Heaven and Earth components.

[Jetsun]

I always thought that Qigong was the movement of energy in your body through movement of the body, while Neigong was movement of energy through the body by use of the mind.

[The Way Is Virtue]

What is the difference between neigong and qigong and what's the differences between those two?

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

Looking forward to learning in this thread..

 

Hi bodyoflight. You will likely get somewhat different answers depending on who you ask. This is my current understanding. Nei gong is an older term for internal subtle energy cultivation, while qigong is a newer, more generic term which encompasses any type of subtle energy cultivation. So, the question then is what is internal energy as opposed to other forms of subtle energy (qi)? Basically, internal energy is the subtle energy that flows within our meridians and channels and energy centers within our bodies (whether all of this is really all contained 'within' the body is another matter though).

 

Qigong that focuses more on directing subtle energy (qi) to external parts of the body such as the muscles or

skin, and possibly also bones, tendons, and ligaments, such as is done in some forms of 'hard style' martial arts, could be considered external or hard style qigong. There are many different styles of qigong though and some would be hard to classify as either just external or internal, or hard or soft.

 

Generally though, when a system is referred to as nei gong, it implies that there is more than just basic cultivation of the qi in the 12 main meridians. In a true nei gong system one works to fully open and develop the eight extra channels and various special energy centers as well. Also, with the term nei gong there is often an implication of the system being capable of developing special skills or abilities with the use of the internal energy and energy centers that are cultivated.

 

I don't know much about pranayama but my limited understanding is that this term would be roughly equivalent to the term qigong, as there are probably different types of pranayama, or different uses of pranayama with different focuses and purposes as there are in qigong, but I could be wrong about that.

 

One thing to watch out for is that some teachers use the term nei gong as a selling point to describe their system, even though what they teach may not go much beyond basic work on the main meridians and corollaries, and enhancing basic health. This is similar to various qigong systems or martial arts systems throwing the word 'taoist' around although in reality the system may have little or nothing to do with genuine taoist cultivation practices. Words like nei gong and taoist sell, and there will always be those people who try to take advantage of such things. Anyway, IMO, what really matters is if whatever system one is interested in meets one's personal needs and purposes.

Edited February 10, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[solxyz]

Neigong is an older term, meaning "internal alchemy" which is contrasted with the external alchemy of swallowing cinnabar pills and such. Qigong is a modern term; it is a very general term which can include almost any kind of cultivation practices, but mostly those which include some kind of physical component. I wouldnt make too much of what name is applied to any particular system.

[Ya Mu]

 

...

One thing to watch out for is that some teachers use the term nei gong as a selling point to describe their system, even though what they teach may not go much beyond basic work on the main meridians and corollaries, and enhancing basic health. This is similar to various qigong systems or martial arts systems throwing the word 'taoist' around although in reality the system may have little or nothing to do with genuine taoist cultivation practices. Words like nei gong and taoist sell, and there will always be those people who try to take advantage of such things....

Very good point. Most of what is "sold" is qigong and most of that is more or less calisthenic exercises.

There are certain people who went to China, saw a janitor exercising in the park, and asked him to teach his "qigong". Janitor saw great monetary visions and told the "long nose" of course he would teach his "qigong". Said person came back, started a school, and is all of a sudden a grandmaster of spectacular bullshit.

 

It is very much a buyer beware field, as much as I hate to say it.

I was somewhat guilty of the reverse. Back when I started I tried to use the word "neigong" and nobody knew what the heck it meant, so I joined the rank and file of the qigong world and substituted the word "qigong", for people had at least heard of this (at least some people). Now people are more exposed to the term "neigong" and as the years have gone on I have attempted to use the word far more than I have in the past. And I do teach authentic neigong.

Lots of confusion out there.

 

"Medical Qigong" is another thing that has gotten bastardized. Medical qigong, the terms also first used by Grandmaster Hu and his peers (he didn't have many), means wai qi liao fa , healing with external energy. Now you have everybody and his brother, WHO DON'T EVEN TEACH MEDICAL QIGONG, using it to describe what they do and as titles on DVD's.

Go figure.

[The Way Is Virtue]

"Medical Qigong" is another thing that has gotten bastardized. Medical qigong, the terms also first used by Grandmaster Hu and his peers (he didn't have many), means wai qi liao fa , healing with external energy. Now you have everybody and his brother, WHO DON'T EVEN TEACH MEDICAL QIGONG, using it to describe what they do and as titles on DVD's.

Go figure.

 

Yes, I think many people use the term medical qigong these days as a general term for health improvement qigong, but your definition of medical qigong matches the original clinical use of the term, I believe. With any system I guess it is always a good idea to do some preliminary research if possible to get a better understanding of where the system is coming from and what the goals and purposes are of the system. On the other hand that may not be possible in some cases if one is not fluent in chinese or if the system one is interested in has always kept a low profile throughout its course of development. At any rate, IMO, for the most part it is probably a good idea to at least meet and spend some time with the teacher of the system before attempting to draw any definite conclusions one way or the other.

[hagar]

Its probably impossible, atleast in a pragmatic sense, to distinguish or separate the two terms in a modern, western context. Yet I do agree with the historical division, and point that qigong is a modern umbrella term.

 

Some of the practices and systems now labeled as "qigong" are actually neigong, and visa versa.

 

My teacher definately teaches moving and static forms of neigong that he calls, for pragmatic reasons "qigong". He does however teach Nei Dan as a separate retreat. Yet in general, the principles at work in different aspects of his system all contain the Nei Dan transmission and core aspects.

 

From what I have managed to scrape together, the main difference with what could be called "accumulating" qi forms and meditations and Nei gong is that Nei gong practises often are based on a paradigm of transmuting energy more than accumulation. You are not the container of energy, but the conductor. I may be wrong.

 

h

Edited February 10, 2011 by hagar

[Red Pheonix]

What is the difference between neigong and qigong and what's the differences between those two?

 

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

 

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

 

Looking forward to learning in this thread..

 

This is the sort of topic that's going to bring a variety of answers, that's ok though; it's shrouded in ambiguity and besides that it's ok for people to understand things in different ways.

 

Both Neigong and Qigong are quite ancient. I would consider Dao Yin to be the first form of Qigong, it's precursor if nothing else. Neigong was always kept secret, in ancient times it was either held secretly in lineages or taught to the imperial families. It's really difficult to find truth on these subjects looking back at the last century because of the confusion caused by the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Basically many things were outlawed, the government set out to kill many of the mystical Taoists as well. In the governments effort to control things they did away with and rebranded many things. For instance, the Quanzhen sect of Taoism is now at the forefront and largely dominate in Wudang, however they were given more power by the government while other sects were wiped out, this is because the government thought they would be easier to work with and control. That's not to say that Quanzhen is without merit on their own, it is indeed a wonderful sect. In the end many things were changed, renamed and hidden in order to survive.

 

Chi is an ambiguous term that's used often times as an explicit reference. There are many types of Chi and it's described 1000 different ways. Keep that in mind when people are explaining 'their' version of things. That doesn't mean that anyone is right or wrong, it's just good to be mindful of this.

 

I would describe Qigong as the act of gathering/storing Qi in it's most general sense. This is usually done in a moving form although it can also be done in still forms like posting. Heck, you can go so far as to say that some martial forms are Qigong (if done appropriately). Qigong does not, generally, involve meditation or specific visualizations although it can at times involve the use of sound. Many Kung Fu styles have a Qigong counter component that's created to help develop aspects required for the martial form. For instance White Crane Kung Fu has different Qigong sets where are specifically designed to support White Crane; just as they have their own 5E sets. Some Qigong is also designed to achieve a certain goal or to develop a certain type of Chi, Iron Shirt skill cultivation techniques would be a good example of this.

 

I would describe Neigong as being similar to Qigong in construct, however very different in that Neigong utilizes special breathing, meditation and visualization methods; these are things that make a distinguishment between the two. In Qigong you might be in a passive mind state, but you aren't doing specific meditations. You might be doing normal Taoist breathing, but you are not doing specific breathings. For the most part you do not visualize in Qigong where Neigong uses visualization to develop certain things. Qigong is generally safe to mix and match, Neigong is not because it's meant to develop a very specific gong and yes you can get very sick if you mix the wrong ones.

 

My two cents... it's really best to read all of these and take in what is good from each; all of these answers have something to share

[Red Pheonix]

Hi red phoenix. Would you believe in a neigong that requires no special breathing? And requires no special visualization methods? That's right, none of these components that you mention in your post.

 

Absolutely Rainbow_Vein! Neigong 'can' utilize any of those items, but Qigong will not utilize them.

[Ya Mu]

Yes, I think many people use the term medical qigong these days as a general term for health improvement qigong, but your definition of medical qigong matches the original clinical use of the term, I believe....

You are probably correct in some folk's use of the term but I think the main reason for it's widespread misuse is one of these 3:

 

1)They can't project qi and just wish for their qigong to be special, too.

2)Ignorance

3)Not ignorant, but market savy. This is the same as lying.

 

I don't think it should be excused. ALL exercises of any kind are supposed to be for health improvement. So the term "medical qigong" is what it is and that is wai qi liao fa.

[Ken]

Qigong is a modern term that was invented in the 50s, it replaced the old terminologies such as neigong, neidan because they sound backward and superstitious which wouldn't do well under the wave of modernizations and reforms around that time. So in China at least, whatever practices you do, doesn't matter what they are called, neigong, dandao, super-duper-qi-accumulating-energy-transmuting-universe-unifying-practice or whatever, they are all considered to be a form of Qigong.

 

People in the west, or on here at least, started banging on the supposedly differences between qigong and neigong because, I believe, they read the book by Kosta about John Chang and it was claimed in there that neigong is superior to qigong. The claim is silly of course because it reflects an ignorance of the history and evolution of these terminologies in China.

 

But anyway, the name is not important. What's important are the objective (or claims) of the energetic practice that you are considering and whether or not there is any evidence that these claims are possible to achieve with the practice.

[The Way Is Virtue]

People in the west, or on here at least, started banging on the supposedly differences between qigong and neigong because, I believe, they read the book by Kosta about John Chang and it was claimed in there that neigong is superior to qigong. The claim is silly of course because it reflects an ignorance of the history and evolution of these terminologies in China.

 

Hi Ken. I know for certain that at least with a former teacher of mine who was a traditional Chinese from China, and who had studied various practices from various teachers in both China and Hong Kong, that he used the terms of qigong and nei gong differently (actually he used terms that sound like 'hay gong' and 'loy gong', if I remember the Cantonese terms and pronunciation correctly, since his main dialect was Cantonese), but when he spoke of nei gong he was referring to very special internal cultivation practices and some of the special abilities that people who practice nei gong can develop. I also know that he practiced a special form of nei gong, as I saw him practicing it on a number of occasions, and it was not what most people would think of when they refer to qigong, but he did not teach that publically. So, at least some native Chinese (he was born in the 1920's or 1930's in China) do make a distinction between nei gong and the more generic qigong term. It does seem though that some Chinese use the term nei gong just to mean internal cultivation in general and even to mean internal strength building in some martial arts traditions, from what I have seen, so it is understandable why there can be a fair bit of confusion about the term and why different people may understand the term differently. Many people will use the term in the way they have heard it used by their teacher or teachers, and I also think it would be a mistake to assume that just because someone is a westerner that they have only learned something from a book. Many in the west have learned from traditional Chinese teachers to some degree or other, either in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, etc., or in the west from teachers who have taught here in the west.

Edited February 10, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

You are probably correct in some folk's use of the term but I think the main reason for it's widespread misuse is one of these 3:

1)They can't project qi and just wish for their qigong to be special, too.

2)Ignorance

3)Not ignorant, but market savy. This is the same as lying.

I don't think it should be excused. ALL exercises of any kind are supposed to be for health improvement. So the term "medical qigong" is what it is and that is wai qi liao fa.

 

Well, I think some Chinese qigong teachers are now referring to their health qigong systems as medical qigong although it may or may not include external qi healing. Not saying it is right or wrong, just that it seeems it is starting to be used that way. It seems the term has continued to evolve somewhat from its original usage as external qi emitting in clinical use. Language has a way of constantly evolving, and it is not uncommon for those who know or learned the original usage of a term to be somewhat annoyed when people start to use the term in some way that diverges from the original meaning. It certainly can lead to some confusion though.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Red Pheonix]

Hi Ken. I know for certain that at least with a former teacher of mine who was a traditional Chinese from China, and who had studied various practices from various teachers in both China and Hong Kong, that he used the terms of qigong and nei gong differently (actually he used terms that sound like 'hay gong' and 'loy gong', if I remember the Cantonese terms and pronunciation correctly, since his main dialect was Cantonese), but when he spoke of nei gong he was referring to very special internal cultivation practices and some of the special abilities that people who practice nei gong can develop. I also know that he practiced a special form of nei gong, as I saw him practicing it on a number of occasions, and it was not what most people would think of when they refer to qigong, but he did not teach that publically. So, at least some native Chinese (he was born in the 1920's or 1930's in China) do make a distinction between nei gong and the more generic qigong term. It does seem though that some Chinese use the term nei gong just to mean internal cultivation in general and even to mean internal strength building in some martial arts traditions, from what I have seen, so it is understandable why there can be a fair bit of confusion about the term and why different people may understand the term differently. Many people will use the term in the way they have heard it used by their teacher or teachers, and I also think it would be a mistake to assume that just because someone is a westerner that they have only learned something from a book. Many in the west have learned from traditional Chinese teachers to some degree or another, either in China or Hong Kong or Taiwan, etc., or in the west from teachers who have taught here in the west.

 

Both Ken and The Way Is Virtue are illustrating an important point here. I have a Master from Taiwan who's one of the most educated persons I know in Chinese Medicine and Kung Fu; he would say that there's no such thing as Qigong. At the same time I have a Master that has scrolls that his family provided the Imperial family hundreds of years ago, scrolls that illustrate the alchemical process of the Neigong which (at that time) was distinct from the common 'Qigong' (our modern term) practices which existed.

 

I think in the end, China is a big place and many Masters want to be right. You have to remember this when getting advice. That doesn't make any of the Masters wrong, from their perspective their answers are quite valid and there is something to be learned from all of it if you are open and childlike

[The Way Is Virtue]

I think in the end, China is a big place and many Masters want to be right.

 

Hi Red Phoenix. I don't think the issue is so much about masters or anyone else wanting to be right, but just people expressing what they have learned and understand from whatever tradition or traditions they have learned from. I think most people do understand that sometimes terms tend to get used differently by people from different backgrounds and traditions, although in some cases it is indeed just due to people having incorrect or incomplete information.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Ya Mu]

Well, I think some Chinese qigong teachers are now referring to their health qigong systems as medical qigong although it may or may not include external qi healing. ...

Yes they are. Partly because they have to only talk about this with certain restrictions and part because they too, fit into the category of 1,2, and 3 I posted. Medical qigong IS an established modality of Chinese Medicine, as applied therapeutics, and it only confuses people to arbitrarily use these terms. Not as easy these days to find real medical qigong in China due to crackdown by gov.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes they are. Partly because they have to only talk about this with certain restrictions and part because they too, fit into the category of 1,2, and 3 I posted. Medical qigong IS an established modality of Chinese Medicine, as applied therapeutics, and it only confuses people to arbitrarily use these terms. Not as easy these days to find real medical qigong in China due to crackdown by gov.

 

Roger that.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Ya Mu]

Qigong is a modern term that was invented in the 50s, it replaced the old terminologies such as neigong, neidan because they sound backward and superstitious which wouldn't do well under the wave of modernizations and reforms around that time. So in China at least, whatever practices you do, doesn't matter what they are called, neigong, dandao, super-duper-qi-accumulating-energy-transmuting-universe-unifying-practice or whatever, they are all considered to be a form of Qigong.

 

People in the west, or on here at least, started banging on the supposedly differences between qigong and neigong because, I believe, they read the book by Kosta about John Chang and it was claimed in there that neigong is superior to qigong. The claim is silly of course because it reflects an ignorance of the history and evolution of these terminologies in China.

 

But anyway, the name is not important. What's important are the objective (or claims) of the energetic practice that you are considering and whether or not there is any evidence that these claims are possible to achieve with the practice.

Hi Ken,

I think those that actually know the difference speak one way and those that don't speak another. But yes, the communists seem to prefer the general term "qigong" for "health exercises". And I don't think this reflects ignorance of the evolution of the terminologies as much as ignorance of the methods.

 

But I certainly agree with you on what you say here "... What's important are the objective (or claims) of the energetic practice that you are considering and whether or not there is any evidence that these claims are possible to achieve with the practice."

[Gerard]

Do other countries or cultures besides china have them too and what do they call these practices?

 

Yes. Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong (as the ones I have experience with). They follow the traditional Chinese way more than what you find in mainland China today unless you exit the parks and find specific teachers.

 

Someone once said that neigong is no different from prayanama ... what do you all think?

 

Pranayama manipulates the breathing process through various stages. Qigong is direct energy work using rhythmic movement, slow breathing and visualisation.

 

I hope this basic explanation helps.