What's the difference between neigong and qigong?

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[The Way Is Virtue]

I have a Master from Taiwan who's one of the most educated persons I know in Chinese Medicine and Kung Fu; he would say that there's no such thing as Qigong.

 

So, did this teacher explain what exactly he means by that?

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[bodyoflight]

Hi bodyoflight. You will likely get somewhat different answers depending on who you ask. This is my current understanding. Nei gong is an older term for internal subtle energy cultivation, while qigong is a newer, more generic term which encompasses any type of subtle energy cultivation. So, the question then is what is internal energy as opposed to other forms of subtle energy (qi)? Basically, internal energy is the subtle energy that flows within our meridians and channels and energy centers within our bodies (whether all of this is really all contained 'within' the body is another matter though).

 

Qigong that focuses more on directing subtle energy (qi) to external parts of the body such as the muscles or

skin, and possibly also bones, tendons, and ligaments, such as is done in some forms of 'hard style' martial arts, could be considered external or hard style qigong. There are many different styles of qigong though and some would be hard to classify as either just external or internal, or hard or soft.

 

Generally though, when a system is referred to as nei gong, it implies that there is more than just basic cultivation of the qi in the 12 main meridians. In a true nei gong system one works to fully open and develop the eight extra channels and various special energy centers as well. Also, with the term nei gong there is often an implication of the system being capable of developing special skills or abilities with the use of the internal energy and energy centers that are cultivated.

 

I don't know much about pranayama but my limited understanding is that this term would be roughly equivalent to the term qigong, as there are probably different types of pranayama, or different uses of pranayama with different focuses and purposes as there are in qigong, but I could be wrong about that.

 

 

 

Let me tackle my doubts one by one.

 

Is neigong the same as kundalini meditations, yoga meditations and/or pranayama?

 

Cos your description sounds very similar to kundalini meditations, yoga and/or pranayama as we are moving energy through the energy centres and various channels.

 

Comments from everybody would be much appreciated.

Edited February 11, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Ya Mu]

...

 

Re: 7 major forms - the teachers of 5 of these forms are listed in my book under Master Wang's teachers. I can't tell you what the forms were except for the static/dynamic form. Possibly some research on the names will yield what they were famous for. I had a typo in the book where it should have read Hu Yaozhen.

 

re: calisthenics

I have not seen anything that convinces me that many of these type of movements are as good for health as rebounding. I would go so far as saying that most are not.

Yes, qigong is umbrella term. Neigong specific term.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Ya Mu

[The Way Is Virtue]

Qigong is direct energy work using rhythmic movement, slow breathing and visualisation.

 

Hi Gerard. I believe your description of qigong practices is a bit too narrow. There are certainly qigong

practices that don't use visualization or rhythmic movement, and some forms of qigong practice do use

special and deliberate breathing techniques somewhat along the lines of what is done in pranayama such as

varying the length of the inhale compared to the exhale and varying the time one holds the breath between inhale and exhale, etc., although I am not aware of any qigong practices that just breath in or out through

one or the other nostril like they do in pranayama, but chances are there may be some forms of qigong that do that too. Also some forms of qigong may sometimes deliberately use more rapid or forced breathing as well I believe for special purposes such as some types of hard style qigong.

 

There is no question that it is hard to make concrete statements about qi gong or nei gong as there are so many different traditions and influences. Taoist practices apparently drew from shamanic practices and other ancient practices and taoist and buddhist practices were often influenced by each other in China as well, and so there are many variations.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[fiveelementtao]

Let me tackle my doubts one by one.

 

Is neigong the same as kundalini meditations, yoga meditations and/or pranayama?

 

NO. Not even close... ALL of these disciplines move energy through centers, meridians and channels. But in very different ways and for different reasons with different results and sometimes different energies. By asking this question, you are trying to understand a supercomputer by trying to compare it to a game boy.

[Ya Mu]

... There are certainly qigong

practices that don't use visualization or rhythmic movement, and some forms of qigong practice do use

special and deliberate breathing techniques somewhat along the lines of what is done in pranayama...

You would be surprised (well, I guess YOU wouldn't) how many times I have been argued with that qigong MUST have breath control and visualization. I particular do not like the forms that do.

[Red Pheonix]

So, did this teacher explain what exactly he means by that?

 

Indeed he did, his engrish is pretty good too lol. I simply wanted to illustrate that a westerner should expect to see a variety of responses and reasons, but should not fall short at indoctrination, rather to listen to everyone and find their truth. Theres generally something to learn from it all imo.

 

It's like a finger pointing to the moon, don't focus on the finger or you'll miss out on all that heavenly glory!

 

NO. Not even close... ALL of these disciplines move energy through centers, meridians and channels. But in very different ways and for different reasons with different results and sometimes different energies. By asking this question, you are trying to understand a supercomputer by trying to compare it to a game boy.

Yea, what 5ET said... this guy just phones it right home

[The Way Is Virtue]

Let me tackle my doubts one by one.

Is neigong the same as kundalini meditations, yoga meditations and/or pranayama?

Cos your description sounds very similar to kundalini meditations, yoga and/or pranayama as we are moving energy through the energy centres and various channels.

Comments from everybody would be much appreciated.

 

Hi bodyoflight. If you like, nei gong is a specialized form of internal energy cultivation. There may be similarities in some ways to kundalini and yoga and pranayama but I have not studied or practiced those traditions so I can't comment too much on that. As has been pointed out here, various teachers may use the term nei gong differently so it is hard to make definitive statements about it, at least from my perspective anyway. My former teacher used the term nei gong to describe special internal cultivation practices that aren't necessarily the same as internal alchemy practices which also has different traditions with different roots. There certainly seem to be correspondences to at least some of the energy centers spoken of in yogic traditions and in Chinese internal cutivation traditions, from what I can see. All I can say is they are different traditions that no doubt have at least some differences, and which may have different purposes as well. Regarding nei gong, some of the abilities that my former teacher described that can be attained through nei gong practice are things like having the ability to jump up into high tree brqanches or onto a roof of a building, for example. I know most people would assume that such things are the just fables, but my former teacher seemed to believe that such things were indeed possible through special nei gong practices. I personally have never seen anyone do that though.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Ken]

Still dwelling on the terminologies?

 

I really think one should concentrate on the actual practice and what is possible to achieve instead. A practice that has a flowery name but no real benefits, or even worse actually harmful to your health, does not worth as much as the simple qigong form you see in the parks in China, surely everyone agrees with that.

 

There are a lot of BS practice out there that have awe-inspiring names, one should be careful in choosing the right one out of all the trash. I am not going to recommend specific practices but here are a few genuine practices that I know of which has at minimum real health benefits:

 

(1) Wang Liping's Longmen practice.

(2) Yan Xin Qigong.

(3) Hu Yaozhen's qigong healing methods.

(4) Chen Wei's Tianshan qigong.

(5) Peng Ming's Zhineng qigong.

 

The list above is NOT exhaustive of course...it only includes practices that I have personal experience, or I know people who do them or vouched for by people that I respect and trust.

[The Way Is Virtue]

You would be surprised (well, I guess YOU wouldn't) how many times I have been argued with that qigong MUST have breath control and visualization. I particular do not like the forms that do.

 

It is often a matter of what a person has personal experience with, I believe. I also have not done well with qigong practices that use visualization or special breathing, but some people seem to do well with those approaches.

Edited February 11, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Franklin]

just a note about medical qi gong

being used to describe a exercise or exercise set

 

sometimes the term medical qi gong is used today to denote practices that are not for general health promotion but instead to correct certain imbalances in the body or to treat certain conditions

 

so a person without a certain condition or imbalance should not practice them

as it could create imbalance in the body

 

where as the yang sheng type exercises promote general health

and are usually also ok for people with imbalances or conditions to practice

 

 

I have had different teachers define nei kung and qi gong in different ways

many of those categorizations have already been mentioned in this thread

 

also in the internal styles of kung fu sometimes nei kung is a term used for certain exercises or practices that work to develop the internal power in the style- the exercises could be training certain deep physical and energetic connections, be working to gain mobility and control over certain aspects of the body, and also a whole host of other things

this usage of the term nei kung is very different from the one that will be talked about here on the tao bums (which tends to be more about spiritual stuff)

 

 

franklin

[The Way Is Virtue]

I have had different teachers define nei kung and qi gong in different ways

many of those categorizations have already been mentioned in this thread

 

also in the internal styles of kung fu sometimes nei kung is a term used for certain exercises or practices that work to develop the internal power in the style- the exercises could be training certain deep physical and energetic connections, be working to gain mobility and control over certain aspects of the body, and also a whole host of other things

this usage of the term nei kung is very different from the one that will be talked about here on the tao bums (which tends to be more about spiritual stuff)

franklin

Hi Franklin. I did mention that as well previously in this thread. I have also seen the term used by some to describe special exercises in bagua and xing i for building internal strength/power as you described,

and also used to describe tai ji qigong routines as well. Many of these types of exercises don't appear to be all that different from movements that are contained within the internal martial arts forms already, the main difference being that these movements are done more repetitively, but sometimes there are some different movements and stretches thrown in there as well. Some teachers just refer to them as supplementary exercises or supplementary qigong exercises. I guess the bottom line is the person looking to learn a system needs to be aware of these different usages and do a little investigation to see what all is really being taught in any particular system, to see if that meets their needs.

[bodyoflight]

I have done a little digging around..

 

first off.. does qigong projects chi or does it not project chi as speculated by a few forummers here..

 

qigong, according to my 2 cents, is meditation and movement combined.. which is shown in the following video..

 

 

it is clear that these people were practicing qigong and yet that tibetan master was able to project his chi?

 

comments please from everyone

[bodyoflight]

NO. Not even close... ALL of these disciplines move energy through centers, meridians and channels. But in very different

 

ways and for different reasons with different results and sometimes different energies. By asking this question, you are

 

trying to understand a supercomputer by trying to compare it to a game boy.

 

Please tell us what are the differences in the reasons, results and types of energies between neigong, prayanama and kundalini yoga..

 

as way is virture said.. neigong allows you to possibly jump on buildings...

 

i have seen some videos where a master is able to repel attackers through chi alone ...

 

 

 

also the infamous john chang with his neigong feats

 

 

In the Yoga Sutras, which are approximately 2000 years old, Patanjali mentions kundalini yoga or pranayama gives you the following Siddhis:

 

Knowledge of the past and future

Understanding the sounds (language) of all beings

Knowledge of previous existences

Knowing the minds of others

Invisibility

Suspending the ability of the body to be heard, touched, tasted, or smelled

Foreknowledge of the time of death

Strength of any attitude (such as friendliness)

Super strength (such as the strength of an elephant)

Knowledge of subtle, hidden, remote things

Knowledge of worlds, realms, universes, etc.

Knowledge of the arrangement of stars, planets, etc.

Knowledge of the movement of stars, planets, etc.

Knowledge of the arrangement of systems in the body

Freedom from hunger and thirst

Attainment of steadiness or immobility

Visions of Siddhas (perfected beings)

Knowledge of anything and everything

Knowledge of the mind

Knowledge of pure consciousness (purusha)

Psychic hearing, touch, vision, taste, and smell

Entering and controlling the bodies of others

Ability to float or walk on water, swamps, thorns, and other such objects

Ability to glow or radiate light around the body

Super hearing (hearing at vast distances)

Ability to fly

Mastery over the elements (earth, water, fire, air, space)

Making the body atomically small, indestructible, perfect

Perfection of the body in beauty, strength, grace, and brilliance

Mastery over the senses

Quickness of the mind, perception with the senses

Supremacy over all states of existence, omnipotence

Higher knowledge

Discriminating knowledge

Absolute freedom (kaivalyam)

 

it seems that the highlighted siddhis are very similar to neigong feats..

 

isn't that the case then that neigong is very similar to kundalini yoga or pranayama?

Edited February 11, 2011 by bodyoflight

[Ya Mu]

Dang Ken, you don't yet know, respect or trust any of Ya Mu's students and system?

 

(3) Hu Yaozhen's qigong healing methods.

Ken probably does not know that my methods are in a large part of the direct lineage from Grandmaster Hu. He was one of Master Wang's primary teachers. As in Hu>Wang>Lomax. I probably have never discussed this much with my students as I attempt to live in the NOW and history is history so I don't go on much about the lineage, with the exception of paying respects to Master Wang. Grandmaster Hu was born in 1879 and lived until 1973. He was recognized by his peers as the father of modern qigong and medical qigong. He was very well known for his neigong methods. There are many wondrous stories of Grandmaster Hu, and as I said in another post on this thread, he was known as "single finger can shake the world" because his qi was so powerful. He was observed many times levitating as well as possessing other highly developed skills. He was recognized by his peers as one of the more powerful qigong masters of his time; the same for Master Wang, who was recognized by his peers as one of the more powerful qigong masters of his time. I will email you some more info on Grandmaster Hu.

 

The skills of students of this lineage are among the highest neigong and medical qigong skills available and speak for themselves, as you are aware, and as you are coming into your own with them. You are already far past most that I have observed from other systems with more than 15 years of training. But thanks for mentioning me, not because I am anything but a cog on the wheel, but because these methods are simply amazing and wondrous in their ability to help humanity, and will continue to do so.

 

I do wonder why Ken lists dead men instead of the actual teachers of these methods. Not impossible, but dead men are very difficult to find and study with.

[Ya Mu]

I have done a little digging around..

 

first off.. does qigong projects chi or does it not project chi as speculated by a few forummers here..

 

qigong, according to my 2 cents, is meditation and movement combined.. which is shown in the following video..

 

 

it is clear that these people were practicing qigong and yet that tibetan master was able to project his chi?

 

comments please from everyone

It does appear as if you are getting involved with the sensationalism aspect of energetics. My advice, should you want it, would be simply to find a teacher you resonate with and study with them. If medical qigong, the ability and methods to help others through qi projection, is what you are after there are several fine programs in the USA and in other parts of the world. But talking about them will not get anyone anywhere as it is in the practice itself. Forget leaping tall buildings for the most likely outcome of such a desire is to have the tall building leap at you. And that helps no one.

[bodyoflight]

It does appear as if you are getting involved with the sensationalism aspect of energetics. My advice, should you want it, would be simply to find a teacher you resonate with and study with them. If medical qigong, the ability and methods to help others through qi projection, is what you are after there are several fine programs in the USA and in other parts of the world. But talking about them will not get anyone anywhere as it is in the practice itself. Forget leaping tall buildings for the most likely outcome of such a desire is to have the tall building leap at you. And that helps no one.

 

I am looking for a system that works and a chi system which works will definitely confer benefits to a serious practitioner..

[Ya Mu]

I am looking for a system that works and a chi system which works will definitely confer benefits to a serious practitioner..

But you did mention qi projection. Which is a different field of study than self-development although one has to go through the self-development aspect in order to study the other. Are you interested in only self-development or in the medical aspect for helping others? One resource would be to look on www.nqa.org for teachers in your area.

It IS extremely difficult to judge which system works without looking at the students of any particular system. In the medical qigong field they either can or can't. The efficacy is either low, mid, or high. If the students have low efficacy chances are the self-development aspect of the system is weak.

[Ken]

Hi Ya Mu, Actually I do know that, I thought it would be implicit that the list would include their authorized students too. Hu Yaozhen and Wang Juemin are acknowledged qigong masters and their practices are certainly of high quality.

 

Also only Master Hu had passed away in the list, the others are still around but they are somewhat harder to locate. That's why I only include the head guy in order to include their lineal descendants.

 

 

(3) Hu Yaozhen's qigong healing methods.

Ken probably does not know that my methods are in a large part of the direct lineage from Grandmaster Hu. He was one of Master Wang's primary teachers. As in Hu>Wang>Lomax. I probably have never discussed this much with my students as I attempt to live in the NOW and history is history so I don't go on much about the lineage, with the exception of paying respects to Master Wang. Grandmaster Hu was born in 1879 and lived until 1973. He was recognized by his peers as the father of modern qigong and medical qigong. He was very well known for his neigong methods. There are many wondrous stories of Grandmaster Hu, and as I said in another post on this thread, he was known as "single finger can shake the world" because his qi was so powerful. He was observed many times levitating as well as possessing other highly developed skills. He was recognized by his peers as one of the more powerful qigong masters of his time; the same for Master Wang, who was recognized by his peers as one of the more powerful qigong masters of his time. I will email you some more info on Grandmaster Hu.

 

The skills of students of this lineage are among the highest neigong and medical qigong skills available and speak for themselves, as you are aware, and as you are coming into your own with them. You are already far past most that I have observed from other systems with more than 15 years of training. But thanks for mentioning me, not because I am anything but a cog on the wheel, but because these methods are simply amazing and wondrous in their ability to help humanity, and will continue to do so.

 

I do wonder why Ken lists dead men instead of the actual teachers of these methods. Not impossible, but dead men are very difficult to find and study with.

[thelerner]

I am looking for a system that works and a chi system which works will definitely confer benefits to a serious practitioner..

 

Systems..we got them. Consider putting the search aside for 3 months and start a system. If you find wisdom in Ya Mu's words (I do) go to his site, order the materials and start the work. There is Kap which is nice because it has 'live' skype classes or Spring Forrest Chi Gung. This thread and others have a dozen or so reputable routes, or find for teacher close to you.

 

Stop the search and get on a path. Even if its a poor one you'll be working up some momentum.

 

Michael

[gendao]

(1) Wang Liping's Longmen practice.

(2) Yan Xin Qigong.

(3) Hu Yaozhen's qigong healing methods.

(4) Chen Wei's Tianshan qigong.

(5) Peng Ming's Zhineng qigong.

I've taken an intro workshop in 1 & Ya Mu's portion of 3. Without going into detail, I'd say the 2 share the same basic framework and are extremely compatible (at least at the lower levels).

 

I've also heard that Yan Xin emitted a ridiculously powerful qi field that would often cause miraculous instant healings. Of course, one person healed during these seminars was the now famous qigong master Chunyi Lin who even studied with Yan Xin’s teacher..

 

I've also heard good things about Lin's own Spring Forest Qigong...but unfortunately have not had time to personally test-drive it out yet..

 

But, I'd like to learn more about Yan Xin qigong...although one excerpt about one of his forms (9 breath?) I heard sounded like a very odd technique that did not resemble 1 or 3 in the slightest. So, I'm not sure what framework or theories it is based off of? I am mainly just impressed by it due to the legendary rep of Yan Xin himself.

 

I dabbled around with Zhineng's off-shoot - Chi-Lel qigong a while back when I was much more closed. Was a moving form that didn't do much for me - but that could have been because of how closed I was at the time.?

 

Haven't ever tried Tianshan qigong yet...

 

Anyhow, from what little I know so far, I'm guessing that 1-3 are the most powerful here...especially for neidan or healing.

 

 

Except, what about MoPai though?

Edited February 11, 2011 by vortex

[寒月 Hanyue]

Terms, well....

 

One thing is that the terms on the surface are quite straight forward, but at the same time so open they really mean nothing. It is only when given context that meaning can occur. Context is determined by the tradition using the term. There is no ONE SINGULAR definition of terms like qi, xin, shen, yi, neigong, qigong, waiggong, never has been. You have to look beyond the term, to who is using it and in which context? Which is why I find it funny that people read an old text and see a term and assume it MUST be referring to the same thing they THINK it is?

 

So what is the answer? Trust in your teacher. Find a real teacher and try to understand their teachings, and then appreciate the terms they use in the context their teachings provide. Easier said than done.

 

Why? Because there are many teaching and using the terms with no real connection to where the terms come from and this is a problem. Caveat emptor, be careful who your teachers are...

 

My tuppence worth

[henro]

Terms, well....

 

One thing is that the terms on the surface are quite straight forward, but at the same time so open they really mean nothing. It is only when given context that meaning can occur. Context is determined by the tradition using the term. There is no ONE SINGULAR definition of terms like qi, xin, shen, yi, neigong, qigong, waiggong, never has been. You have to look beyond the term, to who is using it and in which context?

 

And this is so important when it comes to Chinese as a language and culture. I'm married to a Chinese girl, and I'm learning to speak Chinese along with my studies of martial arts, and Chinese medicine. Every word and phrase can take on different meanings depending on the context. Add to that all the dialects, regions of the country, the rise and fall of dynasty's, family and sect secrets, and the turmoil of the last 80 years and you've only begun to scratch the surface of actually translating the language.

[johndoe2012]

So it is to be careful not to underestimate "chinese callinestics" they are potential

but most people I think will stuck with Mind moves Body. This also the reason Tai Chi Chuan become a dance or just seeing the martial arts form and even use karate concepts on it. And even need introducing Qigong movement before doing the Form itself which again is done as callinestics.

 

one of the reasons I'm doing Classical Tai Chi which uses Internal Disclipine

 

I think there is a world of difference between this and other Tai Chi styles with large frame forms.