On The Tao Te Ching

[Marblehead]

I have know about this for a while but have not taken any action as of yet. I guess I will have to buy the darn thing pretty soon.

 

 

 

Lao Tzus Tao Te Ching: A Translation of the Startling New Documents Found at Guodian. By Robert G. Henricks. New York: Columbia University Press, 2000. ISBN 0-231-11816-3.

 

This is the first published translation of a fragmentary text of the Tao te ching discovered in an ancient tomb in 1993. This Bamboo-Slip Lao-tzu from Guodian (Kuo-tien) differs in format from the received text or from the Ma-wang-tui silk manuscripts found in the 1970s. Henricks is expert on all such materials, and well qualified to introduce the English speaking world to the new finds. He explains the textual, historical, and interpretive issues; relates the views of other analysts; and offers his own thoughtful positions. Appendices include a line-by-line comparison (in Chinese) with the more familiar editions, and the translation itself provides the original Chinese text (both in exact transcription and in modern equivalents) on the page facing each translated section. Scholars worldwide are still pondering the new finds significance, and specialists may not share all of Henricks specific conclusions. But all will appreciate the painstaking care with which he has presented the new text for Western readers.

 

-- Russell Kirkland, Religious Studies Review 27 (2001), 314

Edited February 10, 2011 by Marblehead

[Apech]

Looks good!

 

Suggest you buy it, read it, study it and give us your review. In others words you do all the hard work and we'll take the benefit.

 

Cheers

 

Apech

[Marblehead]

Looks good!

 

Suggest you buy it, read it, study it and give us your review. In others words you do all the hard work and we'll take the benefit.

 

Cheers

 

Apech

 

 

Hehehe. Well, a few minutes after I made that post I went to Amazon and ordered the freakin' book, the paperback, the hard back is too expensive.

 

So yes, I will do what I can after it arrives and I have given it some of my attention.

[Apech]

Hehehe. Well, a few minutes after I made that post I went to Amazon and ordered the freakin' book, the paperback, the hard back is too expensive.

 

So yes, I will do what I can after it arrives and I have given it some of my attention.

 

Thanks in advance - always look forward to your comments and posts.

[Eric23]

I bought it several years ago and finally decided it wasn't for me as a regular reading companion. It's definitely harder to read than some of the other translations out there. Some of the metaphors and terminology that are literally translated were not obvious and required referencing the notes. However, it is a scholarly approach and includes good notes and supporting text. Will be interested in your opinion.

 

Picked up Hamill's translation after Henricks that I really enjoyed reading. Unfortunately it got stolen along with my briefcase. The thieves didn't get the notebook computer they were looking for, instead they got Lao Tzu and a copy of Roberto Belano's Savage Detectives (a great read btw).

[Marblehead]

I bought it several years ago and finally decided it wasn't for me as a regular reading companion. It's definitely harder to read than some of the other translations out there. Some of the metaphors and terminology that are literally translated were not obvious and required referencing the notes. However, it is a scholarly approach and includes good notes and supporting text. Will be interested in your opinion.

 

Yeah, I guess that is why I have waited so long before ordering it.

 

The reviews I have read indicate that it is an excellent piece of scholarly work.

 

But then someone told me that it really didn't add much to their understanding of the TTC.

 

But, as this is a translation of the oldest known source for the TTC I thought I should at least know what is in it to compare against standard translations.

 

Anyhow, no more bean spilling until after I have read it. Hehehe.

[KCHooligan]

[Aaron]

I've come to the conclusion that the Tao Teh Ching isn't the answer to everything. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt. As others have already stated, the text went through subtle variations over several centuries and what we have now is almost certainly not what was originally written. In my own opinion you should read it and make a reasonable assumption to it's intent. I don't think Lao Tzu ever intended it to be used as a bible, quoted and investigated under close scrutiny and debate, but rather one should read it and go from there.

 

Now one can still read it and examine it, but I think in the long run, if one doesn't actually apply what's being expressed in the text, then it's the same as going to church on Sunday and the brothel on Monday. The true key to understanding Tao doesn't lay in understanding the Tao Teh Ching, but rather understanding the nature of the Tao and our own intrinsic connection to it. Lao Tzu's intent wasn't to explain the Tao, but to explain how one can come to understand the Tao.

 

Aaron

Edited February 11, 2011 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

I was just reading a comparison of this today on Gale Religious and Philosophy Database. Very interesting, in the fact that it illustrates the Daodejing is overall a product of manuscript, not printed culture (aka- they handwrote, and re-edited as they saw fit for their current climate, and uses of it). The essay highlighted that the newfound Guodian (300 B.C.E.) uses more legalistic language, more harsh than natural, which suggests confuscious influence. The journal article even toys with the idea that this version of the Daodejing may even serve as a means for such a text to be studied by confuscious followers of the day. I'd cut/paste the article for discussion, but that'd be irresponsible ;-)

 

Behuniak, J J (July 2009). 'Embracing the One' in the Daodejing. Philosophy East and West, 59, 3. p.364(18). Retrieved February 10, 2011, from Religion and Philosophy

 

Hi KC,

 

Yes. I think that is going to be my biggest challenge - separating what is actually Taoist and what is Confucian. I hope Henricks did all the hard work for me. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

I've come to the conclusion that the Tao Teh Ching isn't the answer to everything. It needs to be taken with a grain of salt. As others have already stated, the text went through subtle variations over several centuries and what we have now is almost certainly not what was originally written. In my own opinion you should read it and make a reasonable assumption to it's intent. I don't think Lao Tzu ever intended it to be used as a bible, quoted and investigated under close scrutiny and debate, but rather one should read it and go from there.

 

Now one can still read it and examine it, but I think in the long run, if one doesn't actually apply what's being expressed in the text, then it's the same as going to church on Sunday and the brothel on Monday. The true key to understanding Tao doesn't lay in understanding the Tao Teh Ching, but rather understanding the nature of the Tao and our own intrinsic connection to it. Lao Tzu's intent wasn't to explain the Tao, but to explain how one can come to understand the Tao.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Exactly. And I have said before and have no fear of saying it again here: I feel that Taoist Philosophy is incomplete if we read only the TTC therefore I always suggest that the Chuang Tzu be read as well.

 

But then I will agree that one can grasp a good feel of Taoist Philosophy from reading only the TTC.

 

Now, applying the principles in our 'real' life is a horse of a different color. Not all that easy.

[Marblehead]

Well, the book arrived. A day late but right on the money.

 

So I guess for a few days, after eating supper, instead of watching TV I will be doing some reading.

[Marblehead]

Finished the introduction and translator's notes.

 

Two items of significant importance to me are the following:

 

This is not a translation of the TTC as we know it today. There are not 81 chapters. Rather, what was found consists of three different documents (among others) that contained chapters and parts of chapters of what we know the TTC to be today.

 

The documents found are obviously copies of copies that a teacher used in his teaching the heir apparent of Chu. So what was found cannot be used to determine whether or not the TTC already existed as a consolidated text with 81 chapters.

 

 

Of curiosity to me, but not holding great importance, is this:

 

"The division of the Laozi into its current eighty-one chapters was apparently done by Liu Ziang (c. 79 - c. 6 b.c.).

[Marblehead]

Well, I have finished inputting all the 'chapters' from the Guodian find to the computer. My intention is to create a modified copy of Henricks' TTC replacing the chapters or portion of chapters of Henricks original translation with the translations he presented in his Guodian TTC. I will call it the Guodian TTC.

 

If anyone is interested in this let me know and we will see what we can do.

 

There is still more of the book I have not read yet but I want to finish this project before I read the remainder and I will let y'all know if there is anything in it that we might discuss.

[Apech]

Very interesting Marblehead. Thanks for feeding back the results of your study so far.

 

Do you get the impression that the meaning of Tao or any related concepts is very different in this text - or is it just a matter of a different order of chapters with bits missing?

 

A.

[Marblehead]

Very interesting Marblehead. Thanks for feeding back the results of your study so far.

 

Do you get the impression that the meaning of Tao or any related concepts is very different in this text - or is it just a matter of a different order of chapters with bits missing?

 

A.

 

What I picked up while reading and typing I do not see any significant differences. The themes and concepts remain pretty much intact. A few different words that could cause one to rethink their understanding of the original concept presented but nothing major, I think.

 

I will post updates as I make progress.

[manitou]

I look forward to reading what you have to say about it too.

 

Don't hurry.

 

Take your time.

 

Have a beer.

 

Put your feet up.

[Marblehead]

I look forward to reading what you have to say about it too.

 

Don't hurry.

 

Take your time.

 

Have a beer.

 

Put your feet up.

 

Ha! Don't drink beer. Never did like the smell or taste of it.

 

But you did inspire me to make a cup of tea (oolong) sweetened with honey. Just had my first sip. So nice.

 

Anyhow, yes, there is more reading for me to do later. There is a section on the relationship of water to Tao (I think that's what it is) and I am curious of what it says. But I must be patient. One thing at a time. I don't do multi-tasking. Hehehe.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

For anyone interested:

 

I have completed my project with the Guodian translations. What I did is take Henricks "Te-Tao Ching" and replaced all the lines with the corresponding lines from the Guodian strips and noted which Chapters had these modifications. Worked out pretty well IMO.

 

Anyone interested in viewing this need only give me a holler.

[manitou]

Marbles, is it too lengthy to post? I'd LOVE to see what you've come up with.

[Marblehead]

Marbles, is it too lengthy to post? I'd LOVE to see what you've come up with.

 

I think it might post okay. There is no copyrighted material in what I did so there should be no problem there.

 

Let me see what I can work out.

[unmike]

I think it might post okay. There is no copyrighted material in what I did so there should be no problem there.

 

Let me see what I can work out.

 

Seconded! Would love to see what the marblemaster wrought.

[Marblehead]

The decision has been made. I will be posting the Henricks' modified translation in the Tao Teh Ching sub-forum later today.

 

For those who would like to compare his original translation with the modified version I will be posting, The original can be found here:

 

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks.html

 

Please understand that no notes, comments, or explanations will be included as this is copyrighted material.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Marblehead

[dawei]

[Marblehead]

[manitou]

Marbles, I've got crocuses.