The Oldest Culture of All

[Immortal4life]

[Aaron]

Hi Immortal,

 

I've been doing a bit of research on Eastern Religions and one interesting find lies in Turkmenistan. In the plains there they've found ancient ruins of what they believe were the ancient descendants of the Aryans. The forts they've found match descriptions of an ancient civilization found in the Vedics. It's, I believe, safe to assume that they were the earliest ancestors of the Indians, but also that they influenced Chinese culture as well. Pictographs found on a seal match pictographs used in Ancient China nearly 2,500 years later.

 

My personal, non-educated guess is that the spiritual traditions that evolved into Brahmanism and Taoism both originated in this plain, and evolved in different ways over the many thousand years that passed. Perhaps the ancient practice of Qi Gong and Yoga started here as well.

 

Something else that is interesting and supports this assumption is that this civilization practiced a proto-Zoroastrianism, in other words an older form of what eventually became Zoroastrianism as defined by Zoroaster. If one looks at some of the underlying beliefs in Zoroastrianism, there is evidence to support that this was perhaps the origin of our understanding of Tao or Brahma, the original source of all creation...

 

Anyways, it's all speculation. I do believe that history is important, but I don't think it will preclude the true understanding of existence, which I believe has remained unchanged in India for several thousand years and China for nearly as long.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Another interesting fact. Brahmans have passed down by oral tradition ancient chants that are practiced during religious ceremonies. These chants are from a language that we no longer understand, one that could've been spoken several thousand years ago. Because of the strict nature of the teaching of these chants, it's entirely likely that the pronunciation used today is exactly the same used when it was originally spoken. How can you make this assumption? Well the fact that if you have an eighty year old brahman recite the chant in one part of India, it will be exactly the same as the chant being recited by a twelve year old who has been taught the chant on the other side of India.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Twinner

[Immortal4life]

Yes, I have heard about the Aryan/Indian connection to Zoroastrianism and Ahura Mazda.

 

Got any links or resources?

Edited February 11, 2011 by Immortal4life

[The Observer]

All shamanic cultures originally worked with energy. Read Drew Hempel's blog http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com/. He's a little eccentric but read his posts about Bushmen and harmonics. He has first hand experience with what he researches (qigong).

[ben]

[Ulises]

It looks like the Bushman culture has kept till today (in an arc of time of 60.000/100.000 years old, according to scholars)the spontaneous contact with the Life Force that was at the beginnings of pre-Vedic culture (Pashupati shakers) and the other lineages...first it was the raw, spontaneous unfolding of the energy, qi,n/om...then people began to write down the postures, asanas, practices born from the direct encounter with the Life Force.

 

I experienced this in the last years: first my body was moved by the energy into asanas (I didn't know a word about yoga in that time), spontaneous mudras, qi gong postures and movements...(some of them very "esoteric") that I saw later in books, DVD's, etc.

More people I have met told me about the same experience.

it's circular: you can either attune to the n/om/qi and being danced....or you can adopt the asana/posture/sequence of movements that lead you to the attunement of the energy....

Edited February 11, 2011 by Ulises

[Non]

what about the ancient Egyptians? I read somewhere that perhaps yoga did originate there and then later moved on to India where it became a science and art.

 

AS or energetic arts, I guess all the primitive cultures and shamanistic traditions had some form of energetic practice. Heck, everything is energetic practice .

[Aaron]

Yes, I have heard about the Aryan/Indian connection to Zoroastrianism and Ahura Mazda.

 

Got any links or resources?

 

Well "The Story of India" is an excellent documentary, but there's also some fairly interesting entries on Wikipedia. Other than that, I've heard snippets from various sources, conversations, etc.

 

In regards to Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, if I remember correctly, the set up of the pantheon is similar, but also there is a strong duality present in Zoroastrianism, it may have even been more present before Zoroaster's arrival.

 

Interesting to add, Zoroastrianism predates Judaism. Many academics believe that it heavily influenced the monotheistic nature of Judaism. There's also evidence to support it predates every other known religion on the face of earth, (excluding the Athena Cults and some ancient shamanistic traditions.)

 

On a side note, the Tao Teh Ching is a far cry from Shamanism. The influence of shamanism on Taoism is often seen within the I-Ching and not later texts such as the Tao Teh Ching or Chuang Tzu. There has never been any clear evidence that Taoism originated from Shamanism, rather it's speculation.

 

Anyways, I hope that helps you get started.

 

Aaron

Edited February 12, 2011 by Twinner

[ben]

The prominence of the Big Dipper in Taoism indicates shamanic roots. Other Taoist lineages work with the Big Dipper or the nail of heaven as it is called in Mongolian shamanism. The Tao Te Ching should be considered as the collective wisdom voice of the Taoist sages, Lau Tzu referred to older masters in the Tao Te Ching.

Edited January 31, 2012 by ben

[manitou]

 

On a side note, the Tao Teh Ching is a far cry from Shamanism. The influence of shamanism on Taoism is often seen within the I-Ching and not later texts such as the Tao Teh Ching or Chuang Tzu. There has never been any clear evidence that Taoism originated from Shamanism, rather it's speculation.

 

Aaron

 

 

Maybe a far cry, but it sure merges pretty seamlessly. The Sage is a shaman, as far as I can see.

[Aaron]

The prominence of the Big Dipper in Taoism indicates shamanic roots. I practise a lineage form that involves stepping out the Big Dipper, so I have first hand experience of proto-Taoism. Other Taoist lineages work with the Big Dipper or the nail of heaven as it is called in Mongolian shamanism. The Tao Te Ching should be considered as the collective wisdom voice of the Taoist sages, Lau Tzu referred to ‘older’ masters in the Tao Te Ching. Taoism is not theism, it is processual embodyment and eventually...............

 

 

Hello Ben and Manitou,

 

I guess my point is that in shamanic traditions, Shamans are never described like Sages are. If you can offer any examples, I'll be happy to agree, but I've never seen or heard of any. I think it's okay if you want Taoism to be linked to ancient Chinese Shamanic traditions, but in the long run, as I stated before, there is no real link, aside from hypothesis, that Taoism evolved from the former. In fact it is much more likely that it evolved from exposure to Hindu philosophy, just as many people believe Qi Gong evolved from Yoga. The similarities between the basic philosophies of Hinduism and Taoism are much more alike than Shamanism and Taoism.

 

 

Aaron

Edited February 12, 2011 by Twinner

[manitou]

I say that because of my direct experience, not anything that I've read about anyone tracing anything before. I claim no anthropological or historical context...

 

The commonality is in the concept of wu-wei and the Castaneda/Toltec concept of the power of silence. They both involve not-doing to achieve, plus acting from a point of impeccability, whether it be the Sage or the warrior. This I only know from direct experience; other than that, I can't prove it.

 

I think the indigenous, wherever they lived, were given the instinctual instruction manual for how to manipulate energy. I think we have devolved over time, in this particular aspect. Doesn't matter whether the medicine men were in China, Russia, Australia, or anywhere. The commonalities are just too, well, common.

[Ulises]

[Immortal4life]

more explanation from an historical perspective-

The Official Graham Hancock Website

"First of all, there is a common legacy of all these world wide ancient civilizations that they do not even address. This legacy lies not in the 'modern' myth of Atlantis, but in the myths and legends of each of these civilizations which make common reference to cataclysms, especially floods, similar gods or god experiences, and precessional and other astronomically significant numbers, etc, etc. The writing, architecture, and agriculture of these ancients are by products of their development which had its roots in a lost civilization of 12000 years ago. Who today remembers his great grandfather much less thousands of years ago, yet we are subtly influenced by him in ways unknown to us. We have built our lives on the legacy of our ancestors.

 

A survivor of some cataclysm, say a flood, who barely escapes with his life, lands on an island that was a mountain top with little or nothing left of his former life but the knowledge and resourcefulness of how to survive. He may have used a computer or driven a car, but he can't build one nor does he have the materials. He may have organizational skills, however, and be able to bring order to a confused more primitive people who have become cannibalistic as well as chaotic as they crowd together on the top of this mountain. Although he , of course, can read and write, there is nothing to read and no one can read what he writes, so he draws pictures to communicate where language does not work. Others copy his pictures and add their own personality to them until after many millennia a system of picture writing has been established. A system used to record the memory of 'he' who taught them in the beginning.

 

Likewise,the use of certain building techniques spring from those first shelters that 'he' helped them build. Certain architectural styles stem from 'his' own architectural background. These are modified to fit the materials and function of their civilization.

 

Though 'he' probably was not keeping seeds on board 'his' boat at the time of 'his' escape, 'he' knows enough about planting to make use of the indigenous plant life in order to introduce agriculture. Most people today have a basic understanding of growing food which they could use in a time of crisis. Again 'his' agriculture would be in keeping with the resources at hand. As the years went by, everything 'he' taught them would appear as if it were developed by the people themselves.

 

The legacy of the ancients of the lost civilization lies in their knowledge and know-how. They imparted this to those lesser informed, then died. Some of the knowledge was retained and passed on either in myths or in functionality as in the development of structures, agriculture, and picture writing. Around the world this development would be similar, but appropriate to the area that each ancient influenced. And there was a universal symbol left by the ancients, which even school children know, --the serpent, with or without feathers."

 

Fu Xi and Nu Wa

 

Hermes

 

Adam and Eve

[Immortal4life]

[Marblehead]

I think we need be careful when talking about the Zoroastrian religion because much of the original thought has been corrupted by later followers.

 

But, as far as religions go, it is probably the one religion I would accept into my beliefs if I felt a need for such. Originally there was only God, no devil. We are born with free will and it is we how decide to do good (follow the way of God) or evil. And it is we who must take full resopnsibility for our actions.

 

Later followers couldn't handle the responsibility of their action so they created the devil to blame their evil-doings on. Zoroastrianism is still considered a monotheistic (one God, no Devil) religion.

[ben]

[Immortal4life]

Info concerning the Big Dipper constellation-

http://modernconstellations.com/allerleiumasvast.html

http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html

[Ulises]

I agree there is some commonality but Taoism has been grossly distorted and relativised by lazy translators of classical Chinese texts like the Tao Te Ching. An example being: ‘the way that can be named is not the eternal way‘. Arguments for importation of ideas are actually more in favour of the Chinese. An example being ‘Zero” which has been claimed as an Indian invention but was actually being used in China as far back as the fourth centuary BC.

 

@ Twinner

Again, my argument for Taoism’s shamanic roots is the prominence placed on the Big Dipper, a characteristic of all Shamanic cultures. Most Westerners are intent on projecting the Big Daddy Myth , aka God, onto Taoism and other rare traditions. Do you study any Taoist practises?

 

@Everyone , chi kung and other related Chinese Medicine practises are not derived from Indian Yogic methods. The Chinese Neolithic culture was relatively sophisticated and was the incubator of Chinese Medicine and processual philosophy. The I Ching was the single biggest influence on Chinese culture. Ihe I Ching comes from the Wu or Shamans, a lunar and matriarchal tradition, no Big Daddy.

 

You have to dig deeper because conventional history is distorted.

 

 

hey, hey, relax, my friend,

I was drawn since the first moment to Taoism, very intuitively,because I felt unconsciously the strong shamanic roots not totally severed - despite the late patriarchal attempts to tame the wild shamanic...years later from my personal experience, sinchronicitiesetc. I got conscious confirmation...

I think that if you dig deeper enough, you'll find shamanic roots - or traces of it - in all the traditions: no big deal, it was the primordial tradition , coming back to Africa, millions of years ago...

 

And I think the problem is not Big daddy, or Big Mommy....but the lack of playfulness, the trickterish, protean knowledge that Reality is much more than any view,always...

I love the fluidic theology of the Bushmen: they say that God has a wife and children...one day it rained, there were a lot of frogs,that week, the Bushmen called God "frog"....when we'll retrieve such theological/cognitive freedom, the world will be different...

Edited February 14, 2011 by Ulises

[manitou]

The more we mention shamanism on this forum, the more confused it gets. I take a share of the blame because I have used that word loosely in the past, I'll be more careful in the future.

 

Seems like there are two types of shamans we're talking about. There's the traditional shaman we all think of - the medicine man, the healer, the mystic. But the word 'shaman' is also used liberally in the New Age vocabulary, the Toltec tradition of Castaneda. The new age shamans are people who have developed the third eye and apply the various uses, whether for healing, understanding, vision, or triangulating. I apologize for any confusion in the past - in this thread there is certainly a difference between the New Age shamans and the historical shamanic cultures mentioned in an earlier post. Apples and oranges in a sense, but the New Age 'shaman' is capable of getting to the same genuine place of uncarved wood, just different methods.

 

The New Age shaman gets to his place of genuineness by recapitulating his life; seeking the pivotal points of his life and either thanking or apologizing. He goes deep within himself to root out undesirable habits; in essence, he attempts impeccability in all he does and Thinks - he gets to the point where he can control his internal dialogue (no different than meditation - except he tries to be impeccable about keeping the internal dialogue and all judgment out of his head at all). It's all the same thing as what we talk about here, only a different vocabulary. When the shaman (or the Sage) can get down to the bottom of his character to his heart and the pure essence, this is when the magic starts to occur.

 

The Sage would call it wu-wei. Castaneda would call it the Power of Silence. Either way, it works.

[ben]

Info concerning the Big Dipper constellation-

http://modernconstellations.com/allerleiumasvast.html

http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/omkar.html

 

Thanks for the links on the big dipper, I have long known about the swastika being a symbol for the big dipper. Why ancient cultures placed such an emphasis on the stars is still a mystery. I practise a Taoist ritual form that involves stepping out the big dipper, but its effects and lineage are very Chinese. I would be interested to learn about other traditions methods for working with the big dipper- Taoism has plethora of such practises.

[Ulises]

The more we mention shamanism on this forum, the more confused it gets. I take a share of the blame because I have used that word loosely in the past, I'll be more careful in the future.

 

Seems like there are two types of shamans we're talking about. There's the traditional shaman we all think of - the medicine man, the healer, the mystic. But the word 'shaman' is also used liberally in the New Age vocabulary, the Toltec tradition of Castaneda. The new age shamans are people who have developed the third eye and apply the various uses, whether for healing, understanding, vision, or triangulating. I apologize for any confusion in the past - in this thread there is certainly a difference between the New Age shamans and the historical shamanic cultures mentioned in an earlier post. Apples and oranges in a sense, but the New Age 'shaman' is capable of getting to the same genuine place of uncarved wood, just different methods.

 

The New Age shaman gets to his place of genuineness by recapitulating his life; seeking the pivotal points of his life and either thanking or apologizing. He goes deep within himself to root out undesirable habits; in essence, he attempts impeccability in all he does and Thinks - he gets to the point where he can control his internal dialogue (no different than meditation - except he tries to be impeccable about keeping the internal dialogue and all judgment out of his head at all). It's all the same thing as what we talk about here, only a different vocabulary. When the shaman (or the Sage) can get down to the bottom of his character to his heart and the pure essence, this is when the magic starts to occur.

 

The Sage would call it wu-wei. Castaneda would call it the Power of Silence. Either way, it works.

 

 

Just to add that through the work of scholar/mystic Peter Kingsley, it seems that the roots of western culture come from Mongolian shamanism, so the use of the word shaman by western people is perfectly correct historically...

http://www.peterkingsley.org/Details.cfm?ProdID=60&category=2

[manitou]

Just to add that through the work of scholar/mystic Peter Kingsley, it seems that the roots of western culture come from Mongolian shamanism, so the use of the word shaman by western people is perfectly correct historically...

http://www.peterkingsley.org/Details.cfm?ProdID=60&category=2

 

That's good to know. But it does seem to be a point of confusion on these threads from time to time.

 

I checked out the link - that book looks incredible. I would order it but my stack of unread books is already too high....

[Immortal4life]

Yeah, I am also quite interested in the connection between astrology, specific constellations, and Taoist qigong exercises.