devoid Posted February 13, 2011 Hi Friends, Thank you all for the great discussion we started based on chapter 1. Here's chapter 2: II. Waging War Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war, cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays. There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy, neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice. Bring war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough for its needs. Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished. On the other hand, the proximity of an army causes prices to go up; and high prices cause the people's substance to be drained away. When their substance is drained away, the peasantry will be afflicted by heavy exactions. With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue. [13 and 14 are presented together, see above] Hence a wise general makes a point of foraging on the enemy. One cartload of the enemy's provisions is equivalent to twenty of one's own, and likewise a single picul of his provender is equivalent to twenty from one's own store. Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards. Therefore in chariot fighting, when ten or more chariots have been taken, those should be rewarded who took the first. Our own flags should be substituted for those of the enemy, and the chariots mingled and used in conjunction with ours. The captured soldiers should be kindly treated and kept. This is called, using the conquered foe to augment one's own strength. In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns. Thus it may be known that the leader of armies is the arbiter of the people's fate, the man on whom it depends whether the nation shall be in peace or in peril. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 13, 2011 It is amazing how I can read these instructions and see how many of them my country, the United States of America, has violated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devoid Posted February 13, 2011 It is amazing how I can read these instructions and see how many of them my country, the United States of America, has violated. Hi Marblehead, Thanks for your insightful post. I've decided long time ago not to personally mix politics with Taoism so my response to your post will be a bit more generalized: My observation is that many who have waged war over the times have not really thought it through before jumping to action. I am convinced that many will make the same mistakes time and again in the future and as such this treatise will continue to remain as valid in the future as it is today and was in the past. If history is any indicator it will probably continue to remain as overlooked. There are a couple of things that I really, really like about this chapter - those are the inclusiveness (of thinking holistically) the understanding of knowledge and the chivalry (rather than the cavalry ) 7 and 15-18 contain some great examples of this. I mentioned in the chapter 1 thread that the Art of War can be considered "the way of dealing with challenges", assuming one is willing to let go of the word war. Although this chapter has war written all over it, I also believe that is possible for this chapter. In the coming days I will write a post on that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 13, 2011 Hi Devoid, Yep. What's that saying? Those who do not understand history are comdemned to repeat it again and again. Or something like that. And I agree with you regarding the holistic view presented. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devoid Posted February 13, 2011 Hi Devoid, Yep. What's that saying? Those who do not understand history are comdemned to repeat it again and again. Or something like that. And I agree with you regarding the holistic view presented. Well said, Marblehead! I guess additionally, I tried to say that those who do not take Sun Tzu seriously are condemned to the same fate as those who do not understand history. I suppose that from this we can deduce that being a successful warmonger is no easy feat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted February 13, 2011 I suppose that from this we can deduce that being a successful warmonger is no easy feat Hehehe. That's a fact. As evidence, in the US Goldwater was considered a hawk and people didn't like that thinking that he would be a warmonger so we elected Kennedy because he spoke like a dove. Of course, he then got us involved in the Vietnam War. Oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manitou Posted February 14, 2011 This chapter is so very straightforward it's hard to find anything to chew on. The mention of bringing war material with you from home, but forage on the enemy - this sounds to me a lot like in the TTC where the Sage does not travel far from his provision cart. To have an open mind about foraging on the enemy, and actively looking for the opportunity to do so, would make use of the synchronicity of the moment in finding food and other provisions, thereby eliminating the need for more than two loadings of the supply wagons (as it says). It also serves the purpose of not costing the people at home as much money, avoiding impoverishment. They seem very concerned about this in this passage. In essence, they would be "drawing sustenance from the Mother", as it says in the TTC. It's interesting to see also that down toward the bottom, where it says 'Now in order to kill the enemy, our men must be roused to anger; that there may be advantage from defeating the enemy, they must have their rewards.' It almost sounds as though the generals were training dogs for a dog fight. I am so happy to see that the captured soldiers were to be treated kindly. Down at the bottom, when they talk about using the conquered foe to augment one's own strength, this sounds to me like the TTC concept of bending or capturing the light. To stand back and see what direction or dynamic the opposing side is using, then use that force to one's own effect. It doesn't get much better than that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devoid Posted February 18, 2011 If we replace the word 'war' with 'challenge' or 'struggle' it begins to become easy to see how this treatise can be use for other things. While the treatise is quite detailed it really sums up to telling us to look holistically at anything with which we wish to struggle in a manner which will lead to success within the given context. From this viewpoint the first chapter on planning is perhaps the most important because it lays the foundation for how one should approach and pursue challenges. On these ground I would therefore like to propose an alternative, interpreted, translation for the treatise: The Way (Tao) of (dealing with) Challenges. Sorry for quoting myself here, but I need this to provide the continuation I promised for Chapter 2: Continuing to substitute war with challenges, this chapter tells us about the issues we can face in dealing with them: When we try to tackle too big a challenge upfront we risk running into trouble. As a result, we may not be able to deal with the challenge because we are being worn down in the long run due to fatigue setting in when the process becomes protracted. Dealing swiftly with challenges is of course most efficient, yet, when faced with the big ones, we must start working on parts of the challenges. In doing this we should make sure to celebrate the small victories along the way - especially the first ones as they boost morale. I could go on like this.... I am truly awed (although not shocked ) at how universally applicable this chapter is as well as how inspiring it is to look at challenges through the specter of Sun Tzu. Feel free tof ask or comment if you want to discuss any of this chapter or my interpretations (also should you chose to disagree ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
