[TTC Study] Chapter 23 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[devoid]

Thanks Marblehead,

 

I have questions for you on this one: What does Chapter 23 really tell us?

 

I'll admit that to me this one sounds more like a tautology than a taotology, but I will not be surprised if it is only because I didn't look deep enough

[Marblehead]

Thanks Marblehead,

 

I have questions for you on this one: What does Chapter 23 really tell us?

 

I'll admit that to me this one sounds more like a tautology than a taotology, but I will not be surprised if it is only because I didn't look deep enough

 

Fair question. I will leave it for the moment with hopes that someone else will address your question. (Trying to get more people involved. Hehehe.) But I will address it in time if no one else does.

[Easy]

The interpretation of this chapter is dependent on whether "loss" is seen as positive or negative. The Wu translation seems to have loss as a positive...the loss of the affectations of conditioning for example. I think his use of the word "accession" indicates this. In the other translations the absence of faith or trust could refer back to that which has been lost. Interesting that Henricks leaves out the last observation regarding trust/faith; however he could have indirectly condensed the essence of it in the obvious strength of his last few words..."the Way also disregards him."

[Mr. T]

howdy!

 

yeah, i am still trying to figure this one out, as well. just like all the other chapters!! i remember when i first read this chapter i was riding the bus at the time, and it happened to be the dead of winter. it snowed all day...hard. the bus was very, very late, and the afternoon route didn't even run. i also remember thinking that i needed to stop riding the bus!

 

i will post my preferred translation here for this chapter, because it is somewhat different...

 

Lin translation

 

Sparse speech is natural

Thus strong wind does not last all morning

Sudden rain does not last all day

What makes this so? Heaven and Earth

Even Heaven and Earth cannot make it last

How can humans?

 

Thus those who follow the Tao are with the Tao

Those who follow virtue are with virtue

Those who follow loss are with loss

Those who are with the Tao, the Tao is also pleased to have them

Those who are with virtue, virtue is also pleased to have them

Those who are with loss, loss is also please to have them

Those who do not trust sufficiently, others have no trust in them

[manitou]

Only simple and quiet words will ripen of themselves.

 

Simple and quiet words come from the place of stillness within us, the I Am, the Be Here Now. It is the place that self-realization takes us to, the place from which the Sage is able to truthfully say the words that will ripen...come to pass. Because he is Here Now, he is not confused by internal dialogue of any type, positive or negative. His vision is clear for the past or triangulation of the future.

 

 

For a whirlwind does not last a whole morning,

Nor does a sudden shower last a whole day...

 

This section seems to affirm the fact that the only thing we can trust is Change. It may be saying that it is pointless for us to run around in our rash endeavors trying to make conditions better and better for ourselves. There really is no new condition that will change the Here Now, your awareness level, or your happiness level. A new condition may distract us from an unhappiness level for a while, but never permanently.

 

Hence, he who cultivates the Tao is one with the Tao;

He who practices Virtue is one with Virtue;

 

We have a current thread about So What if we're Not Good, or something like that. It appears that this may be indicating that being one with Te (virtue) is part of being one with Tao. Virtue does count for something; my view is that virtue is meant in the sense of lack of impediments within our character that distort our view of what's real.

 

LIN YUTANG translation (last two lines)

 

He who is identified with abandonment -

Abandonment is also glad to welcome him.

He who has not enough faith

Will not be able to command faith from others

 

This reminds me of the straw dogs analogy the TTC uses elsewhere. The rain falling equally on all, etc. I'm not crazy about Lin Yutang's usage of the word 'faith' in his last stanza; sounds too religious to me. Faith 'in' something. I actually think that smacks of duality, but maybe that's just me.

[Easy]

Virtue does count for something; my view is that virtue is meant in the sense of lack of impediments within our character that distort our view of what's real.

 

 

My understanding of "virtue" in the Tao Te Ching context is similar to the term "authenticity" in the western Existentialism context.

[KCHooligan]

Upon reviewing my previously written view of this verse (private notes), I realized I basically paraphrased opposed to summarized. So, off the cuff, I believe it means you are your actions. And if your actions reflect Tao, you obtain te. If they reflect someone acting out of virtue (ego-related), you embody those virtues. If your actions create chaos, disharmony, or of dualistic nature, you embody a lost being (lost from the Way).

 

In simplest form, you are your actions.

 

The last line (like many other instances I've been noticing)- is a repeated idea that a Sage has trust in Tao, therefore should have trust in everything, as everything is Tao.

 

Now, how off am I when I can't connect the body with the conclusion?!

[manitou]

To Do or not To Do. That is the Question.

[Marblehead]

To Do or not To Do. That is the Question.

 

And we each should answer our own question.

[Easy]

 

 

In simplest form, you are your actions.

 

 

 

It all comes down to that!. Everything else is just blow-by...nothing, nothing, nothing but blow-by (If even that.).

Edited February 14, 2011 by Easy

[manitou]

My understanding of "virtue" in the Tao Te Ching context is similar to the term "authenticity" in the western Existentialism context.

 

Exactly. The uncarved wood.

[windblown]

English/Feng

 

"To talk little is natural. "

 

Reading this does something...gives me something to chew on...opens up the universal energies for me to live it. I don't 'know' the truth of this intimately but it sounds good. I'd like to be in that type of stillness. I do meditate every day now and have passed the anxious stage of not getting it 'right.' I just sit in my bed and feel the breath going in and out of my nose. I watch the thoughts like clouds and gently bring my mind to empty when I notice I am thinking again. Sometimes I fall asleep which is quite beautiful too. I don't mind.

 

However I am rather chatty at work and with my family. I adore listening to others and being open to them. I used to think I was an introvert and secretly coveted this superior, (or so I thought,) way of being. But I was isolating and closed in and rather self-absorbed. I felt 'unique.' Now I love talking to many different people. It helps me to realize the commonalities that we as humans share. I feel unity.

 

So I suppose I'm not there yet...maybe I will metamorphisize into that. Do I even want to? Hmmmmm. Of course the effort of 'trying to be quiet' is so fake and pretend sageism. I used to be a little like that too. After all I had been to India and studied meditation and Yoga with an Enlightened Master...Ha! I realize how little I know now but the greatest realization is don't have to beat my head against the wall trying to 'figure out life.'

 

I just get to be my natural self and not care two hoots what other people think. And usually, they seem to like me so it all works out. Following intuition or wu-wei sure makes life easier. I have to remember to stop trying to control everything and get all twisted in my mind. Al-anon is great for this.

 

Anyways...I find these chapters rather overwhelming with so much to take in. I can only do one line at a time and hope that I may experience that particular ideal.

[Marblehead]

Hi Windblown,

 

Nice post. Thanks for sharing in the discussion.

 

Yes, we need be careful when we consider that "To talk little is natural."

 

Natural is natural, it is not defined by any one attribute.

[devoid]

Fair question. I will leave it for the moment with hopes that someone else will address your question. (Trying to get more people involved. Hehehe.) But I will address it in time if no one else does.

 

Hi Marblehead,

 

I think there have been many excellent replies to this post.

 

I am still looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this chapter, though.

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

 

I think there have been many excellent replies to this post.

 

I am still looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this chapter, though.

 

Okay. Hehehe. Give me a little time to go back over it and the others' posts so I don't contradict anyone unintentionally.

 

I'll be back!

[Marblehead]

Darn! I just messed up posting my response and have to do it all over again.

 

Here goes.

 

First, regarding the last two lines. Henricks notes "Finally, note that the final line in the chapter in later editions of the text ... does not occur in the Ma-wang-tui texts."

 

The Ma-wang-tui being the oldest known until the Guodian texts were found. So it is likely that the last two lines are a later addition so I will disregard them.

 

Second, in my opinion the first six lines is nothing more than setting the stage for lines 7 - 11. These lines don't really tell us anything significant.

 

So what is left? Lines 7 - 11. What's it saying? I understand it as telling us that we are, or become, whatever our actions and thoughts are. If we devote ourself to the Tao we become one with Tao. If we devote ourself to Virtue (I prefer using the lower case 'v' for this word indicating the virtues of man) we become one with the virtuous. If we devote ourself to loss (we lost something that we were attached to) then we become one with that loss, i.e. a lost soul.

 

So kinda' like that saying "We are what we eat." I see the chapter telling us that "We are our actions and thoughts."

Edited February 17, 2011 by Marblehead

[manitou]

 

So kinda' like that saying "We are what we eat." I see the chapter telling us that "We are our actions and thoughts."

 

 

To quote you from another thread:

 

"Yep."

[devoid]

Very good, Marblehead,

 

After careful reconsideration of this chapter, yours and other posts I am absolutely convinced that the taotology of this chapter is that it is the source of maxims. As such, chapter 23 is the one out of which spring the two, of which (again) spring the many (maxims) - here's another one:

 

He who posts on taobums is a taobum!

 

[Marblehead]

He who posts on taobums is a taobum!

 

 

Hehehe. That's the way it's gotta' be.

[Otis]

My understanding of "virtue" in the Tao Te Ching context is similar to the term "authenticity" in the western Existentialism context.

+1

[dawei]

[Marblehead]

So the opening line may not be so much about how many words one uses (speech) but about the natural way in which words do not last nor have no lasting impact. Just as the next few lines point out: no matter the strength of the storm or the amount of the down pour, they do not last. Nature itself has sound but it is not the sound which defines its role or produces its effects among the ten thousand. The chapter goes on and seems to say to "be one with" those base things which define and produce effects: Dao and De.

 

Yeah, if we talk a lot but rarely say anything others stop listening to us after a short while.

 

(Yes, I do talk a lot here but I usually try to say something. Hehehe.)

[manitou]

[Marblehead]

A shaman never knows when to shut up - Castaneda

 

And I remember that you accused me of being one of those.