the weak yin male cannot find balance

[Non]

yea so it's about social cues then?

 

What social cues? That's just stupid, in this society is all about making people feel leftout because you're not "in the know" about social cues.It's like a secret society.If people were all normal communication would be normal and we all wouldn't have to guess at what is accepted and what isn't. But people are leftout. For example women expecting men to know "how to talk to her" and "take advantage of her"... how she actually wants men to dominate her, and put up with her rejections, and go beyond and tease her and make fun of her, and dominate her. to use her and abuse her. to control her and all her decisions.to possess her even though she says she wants the exact opposite.

 

This goes COMPLETELY against NORMAL LOGIC yet the majority of women seem to like and want this from men.

 

You pretty much confirm that ALL of what I say is true and it all comes down to knowing when and how to interpret social cues of when it's acceptable to treat women like shit and dominate them when she says "no stop, hehe, oh no, stop, fuck! UGH!!"

 

It's THE SAME everywhre. THE SAME. WOmen generally accept that it's just nature. Both men and women. Women are passive, men are aggressive and sinister.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

yea so it's about social cues then?

 

What social cues?

 

Things like turns of phrase, innuendo, body language, particular behaviors, and things like that.

 

That's just stupid

 

Sometimes it kind of is. And it's hard enough with just one culture. You get cross cultural situations, mixing signals, and everything, and you can be in for a lot of confusion.

 

If people were all normal communication would be normal and we all wouldn't have to guess at what is accepted and what isn't.

 

I hate to break it to you, Non, but people AREN'T normal. There is NO SUCH THING as normal. There is no one set standard for how to talk to somebody.

 

It takes people a long time to figure out what to do and what not to do. And guess what? Times change. What was appropriate five years ago may no longer be appropriate now. It takes trial and error, and the ability to GET OVER MISTAKES, and MOVE ON.

 

how she actually wants men to dominate her, and put up with her rejections, and go beyond and tease her and make fun of her, and dominate her. to use her and abuse her. to control her and all her decisions.to possess her even though she says she wants the exact opposite.

 

Seriously, Non, have you been diagnosed with anything? Because if not, I highly suggest you get yourself checked out. Because depending on the people involved, and the type of flirting, it could *seem* like boundaries are being crossed. The whole "no doesn't really mean no" thing only applies if it's consensual flirting and you're picking up on the cues, because sometimes there is a "no, seriously, stop" being issued. And if you can't pick up on it, that means trouble.

 

So, I suggest you find out, because that would help a lot.

 

This goes COMPLETELY against NORMAL LOGIC yet the majority of women seem to like and want this from men.

 

There. Is. No. Normal. Period.

 

Everyone is different.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Women are passive, men are aggressive and sinister.

 

No. But people are told that enough that they start to believe that.

[Non]

Things like turns of phrase, innuendo, body language, particular behaviors, and things like that.

 

 

 

Sometimes it kind of is. And it's hard enough with just one culture. You get cross cultural situations, mixing signals, and everything, and you can be in for a lot of confusion.

 

 

 

I hate to break it to you, Non, but people AREN'T normal. There is NO SUCH THING as normal. There is no one set standard for how to talk to somebody.

 

It takes people a long time to figure out what to do and what not to do. And guess what? Times change. What was appropriate five years ago may no longer be appropriate now. It takes trial and error, and the ability to GET OVER MISTAKES, and MOVE ON.

 

 

 

Seriously, Non, have you been diagnosed with anything? Because if not, I highly suggest you get yourself checked out. Because depending on the people involved, and the type of flirting, it could *seem* like boundaries are being crossed. The whole "no doesn't really mean no" thing only applies if it's consensual flirting and you're picking up on the cues, because sometimes there is a "no, seriously, stop" being issued. And if you can't pick up on it, that means trouble.

 

So, I suggest you find out, because that would help a lot.

 

 

 

There. Is. No. Normal. Period.

 

Everyone is different.

 

NO, I will not GIVE IN to thinking that it's NORMAL to think that NO REALLY MEANS YES when it comes to "subtle cues" which ONLY PEOPLE "IN THE KNOW" know about it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

It's a social structure that implies that there are certain initiates (those in the know, or initiates accepted into an "order") and those NOT in the know.

 

It is based on INEQUALITY and it's main purpose is DECEPTION.

 

This is NOT good whether it's considered "normal" or "good" by the majority of a populace!

 

This is meant to have people classed as "popular" and "unpopular". Just like high school, or college fraternities."Cool" and "uncool".

 

People never grow up.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Non]

NO, I will not GIVE IN to thinking that it's NORMAL to think that NO REALLY MEANS YES when it comes to "subtle cues" which ONLY PEOPLE "IN THE KNOW" know about it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

It's a social structure that implies that there are certain initiates (those in the know, or initiates accepted into an "order") and those NOT in the know.

 

It is based on INEQUALITY and it's main purpose is DECEPTION.

 

This is NOT good whether it's considered "normal" or "good" by the majority of a populace!

 

This is meant to have people classed as "popular" and "unpopular". Just like high school, or college fraternities."Cool" and "uncool".

 

People never grow up.

 

I am FINE the way I am. You're telling me I'm crazy when the majority are crazy. You're telling me to BE crazy like thee others because it's "normal" and if Im not like that I'm "crazy".

 

Fuckin status quo.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Jeremy]

It's a social structure that implies that there are certain initiates (those in the know, or initiates accepted into an "order") and those NOT in the know.

 

It is based on INEQUALITY and it's main purpose is DECEPTION.

 

This is NOT good whether it's considered "normal" or "good" by the majority of a populace!

 

This is meant to have people classed as "popular" and "unpopular". Just like high school, or college fraternities."Cool" and "uncool".

 

People never grow up.

 

As a "lurker" of this forum, I have to make an exception and post just to say that Non, your posts are a breath of fresh air and I have a feeling that other people are silently grateful for your contributions here as well. Let me be the one to suggest that you DO NOT seek "professional help" to be made "normal" haha!

 

Krishnamurti said, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

 

Anyway, aside from chi kung, I find that good therapy is listening to Eckhart Tolle lectures (they can be found on most bittorrent sites), which has really helped me with "being present" and being at peace with the dysfunction of our culture, a dysfunction, one could say, of which the male-female relations issue you describe is only a surface-level symptom.

 

I've never been able to relate to women very well, though I always felt a deep love for them that would be expressed through eye contact. There were many painful times in my late teens and twenties when I was around women in different places and would make some pretty intense connections with them just through eye contact. I could rarely think of what to say or how to talk to them, and when I did it almost never led to anything more than a simple conversation. I was unable to "build attraction" and was completely incompetent at "flirting".

 

All that time I thought the problem was my own shyness, and I blamed myself for all the "lost opportunities".

 

Then I got into chi kung and meditation. After a few years, I began to realize that there was a very good reason I'm not good at flirting. Because flirting is fundamentally based on deception. It may be "innocent" most of the time, but it's not truly sincere. It's about posturing for social status and playing ego games, sometimes more subtly than others.

 

So I was determined to figure out how to express my desire in completely straightforward, sincere, and unapologetic way. The chi kung helped me get over my fear of what other people think, which allowed me to develop a "practice" of approaching women that turned into a fascinating social experiment. I realized that the most sincere way I could express desire without resorting to theatrics or games (like "PUA" stuff) was to just go about my day, and if I saw a women that noticed me and gave me what I called a "green light", which is prolonged eye contact, smile, etc., to basically go up and ask her if she's single.

 

Not to make small talk first, because in my opinion small talk is just noise to "fill the space" and pretend there's a reason I'm talking to an attractive woman that doesn't have to do with my being attracted to her. I shouldn't have to "beat around the bush", again it goes back to honesty.

 

And I found that they almost always say no. See I was thinking that if I could find some kind of "magic bullet" to cut through all the BS, it would snap them out of their little trance and they would be like, "ah, finally a guy who is sincere, somebody I don't have to posture for and expend all this effort putting through tests!"

 

But sadly, they seem to be so stuck that they actually found ways to adapt their flirting patterns to my sincerity. For example, one girl I asked a few years ago who worked at a grocery store I was frequenting said no, she's not single. I happily said OK, smiled, and walked away. Then she said "But HEY, props for askin!" then proceeded to draw me into conversation about the bread! I realized that it was all just part of her "game", which really felt kind of yucky, because here I was trying to be sincere and she sort of threw it back in my face. Anyway, as I continued shopping at that store, I would give her a brief nod and say hi if I saw her, which is exactly what I do with any person I recognize anywhere. She would often look away and pretend to ignore me. I felt a bit sorry for her. Then one day I was at the deli putting some food in a bowl, and I hear this loud "HOW ARE YOU!!!" right in my ear. It startled me and I spun around, and there she was standing inches from me. I said something like "great, how bout you?" She just stared at me goes "GOOD!" I looked at her and she just stood there staring at me. The look on her face was actually a little creepy! I eventually turned around and went back to getting my food. Sure, most would interpret that as "she was obviously showing interest", but why couldn't she have just been upfront and said, "Hey, remember when you asked if I was single and I said no? Well I am now," or, "I was scared by how direct you were so I lied, I actually am single." That would have been a beautiful moment of honesty that I would have totally appreciated. But she could only do what she was trained to do by society, which was to throw out clues without being direct. Of course, if I had made another "move", she probably would have backed off again to draw me into the whole flirting pattern.

 

I've done this "are you single" thing to well over one hundred women in the Portland area (I lost count around 40) and I could tell many similar stories. The bottom line is that the evidence has shown me that people are living in fear and they are stuck in useless scripts that society programmed them with, probably during the public education system (I don't really buy into the evolutionary psychology explanation that they're trying to select the best genes or whatever).

 

I did actually get one date, with a 19-year-old model haha!! (I was 29 at the time) Of course, I could barely relate to her and she kept getting distracted by text messages on her mobile phone, so that didn't go anywhere. Everywhere I go people are mesmerized by their techno gadgets, which has added another layer of unconsciousness to our relationships with one another.

 

Anyway, my experiment is winding down and I don't ask the question much these days. I have enough stories to fill a pretty hilarious book. I've pretty much resigned to the fact that most women aren't ready for that level of sincerity and directness. Like Non, I wonder if I'm destined to be a celibate monk. I also wonder if my experiment had some kind of impact on the collective female psyche, and if so, maybe I'm close to some "hundredth-monkey" kind of threshold that would lead to women breaking out of these patterns on a wide scale haha but that may be just a delusion of grandeur! The problem is that, while this experiment was a lot of fun at the start, it's become rather depressing, and I don't know if it's appropriate to continue. Also, I'm starting to think this is mainly women's attitude problem, that it's their own responsibility to work through it, and that they will have to actively seek out men like me if they want a change. As a man, all I can do is learn to be at peace with what is.

 

Ultimately, the women all seemed to really appreciate what I was doing. A couple of them actually told me that they thought what I was doing was great, though they weren't single, and then they proceeded to try to flirt with me afterward! But almost none of them could bring themselves to let their guard down and just simply say, "Yes, I am single! Are you?" Is that really so difficult? They seem to think that having their guard up will filter out all the unworthy men, but does it ever occur to them that the good guys aren't interested in wasting their time trying to break through the defenses?

 

I once heard some girl who was sitting with her friends, who overheard me do my thing, say, "OH MY GOD, DID YOU GUYS SEE THAT??? THAT WAS SOOOOO SWEEET!" I thought, yeah, it looks sweet when you witness it from a distance but when you're being asked directly you get weird and scared. Silly girls!

[Non]

As a "lurker" of this forum, I have to make an exception and post just to say that Non, your posts are a breath of fresh air and I have a feeling that other people are silently grateful for your contributions here as well. Let me be the one to suggest that you DO NOT seek "professional help" to be made "normal" haha!

 

Krishnamurti said, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

 

Anyway, aside from chi kung, I find that good therapy is listening to Eckhart Tolle lectures (they can be found on most bittorrent sites), which has really helped me with "being present" and being at peace with the dysfunction of our culture, a dysfunction, one could say, of which the male-female relations issue you describe is only a surface-level symptom.

 

I've never been able to relate to women very well, though I always felt a deep love for them that would be expressed through eye contact. There were many painful times in my late teens and twenties when I was around women in different places and would make some pretty intense connections with them just through eye contact. I could rarely think of what to say or how to talk to them, and when I did it almost never led to anything more than a simple conversation. I was unable to "build attraction" and was completely incompetent at "flirting".

 

All that time I thought the problem was my own shyness, and I blamed myself for all the "lost opportunities".

 

Then I got into chi kung and meditation. After a few years, I began to realize that there was a very good reason I'm not good at flirting. Because flirting is fundamentally based on deception. It may be "innocent" most of the time, but it's not truly sincere. It's about posturing for social status and playing ego games, sometimes more subtly than others.

 

So I was determined to figure out how to express my desire in completely straightforward, sincere, and unapologetic way. The chi kung helped me get over my fear of what other people think, which allowed me to develop a "practice" of approaching women that turned into a fascinating social experiment. I realized that the most sincere way I could express desire without resorting to theatrics or games (like "PUA" stuff) was to just go about my day, and if I saw a women that noticed me and gave me what I called a "green light", which is prolonged eye contact, smile, etc., to basically go up and ask her if she's single.

 

Not to make small talk first, because in my opinion small talk is just noise to "fill the space" and pretend there's a reason I'm talking to an attractive woman that doesn't have to do with my being attracted to her. I shouldn't have to "beat around the bush", again it goes back to honesty.

 

And I found that they almost always say no. See I was thinking that if I could find some kind of "magic bullet" to cut through all the BS, it would snap them out of their little trance and they would be like, "ah, finally a guy who is sincere, somebody I don't have to posture for and expend all this effort putting through tests!"

 

But sadly, they seem to be so stuck that they actually found ways to adapt their flirting patterns to my sincerity. For example, one girl I asked a few years ago who worked at a grocery store I was frequenting said no, she's not single. I happily said OK, smiled, and walked away. Then she said "But HEY, props for askin!" then proceeded to draw me into conversation about the bread! I realized that it was all just part of her "game", which really felt kind of yucky, because here I was trying to be sincere and she sort of threw it back in my face. Anyway, as I continued shopping at that store, I would give her a brief nod and say hi if I saw her, which is exactly what I do with any person I recognize anywhere. She would often look away and pretend to ignore me. I felt a bit sorry for her. Then one day I was at the deli putting some food in a bowl, and I hear this loud "HOW ARE YOU!!!" right in my ear. It startled me and I spun around, and there she was standing inches from me. I said something like "great, how bout you?" She just stared at me goes "GOOD!" I looked at her and she just stood there staring at me. The look on her face was actually a little creepy! I eventually turned around and went back to getting my food. Sure, most would interpret that as "she was obviously showing interest", but why couldn't she have just been upfront and said, "Hey, remember when you asked if I was single and I said no? Well I am now," or, "I was scared by how direct you were so I lied, I actually am single." That would have been a beautiful moment of honesty that I would have totally appreciated. But she could only do what she was trained to do by society, which was to throw out clues without being direct. Of course, if I had made another "move", she probably would have backed off again to draw me into the whole flirting pattern.

 

I've done this "are you single" thing to well over one hundred women in the Portland area (I lost count around 40) and I could tell many similar stories. The bottom line is that the evidence has shown me that people are living in fear and they are stuck in useless scripts that society programmed them with, probably during the public education system (I don't really buy into the evolutionary psychology explanation that they're trying to select the best genes or whatever).

 

I did actually get one date, with a 19-year-old model haha!! (I was 29 at the time) Of course, I could barely relate to her and she kept getting distracted by text messages on her mobile phone, so that didn't go anywhere. Everywhere I go people are mesmerized by their techno gadgets, which has added another layer of unconsciousness to our relationships with one another.

 

Anyway, my experiment is winding down and I don't ask the question much these days. I have enough stories to fill a pretty hilarious book. I've pretty much resigned to the fact that most women aren't ready for that level of sincerity and directness. Like Non, I wonder if I'm destined to be a celibate monk. I also wonder if my experiment had some kind of impact on the collective female psyche, and if so, maybe I'm close to some "hundredth-monkey" kind of threshold that would lead to women breaking out of these patterns on a wide scale haha but that may be just a delusion of grandeur! The problem is that, while this experiment was a lot of fun at the start, it's become rather depressing, and I don't know if it's appropriate to continue. Also, I'm starting to think this is mainly women's attitude problem, that it's their own responsibility to work through it, and that they will have to actively seek out men like me if they want a change. As a man, all I can do is learn to be at peace with what is.

 

Ultimately, the women all seemed to really appreciate what I was doing. A couple of them actually told me that they thought what I was doing was great, though they weren't single, and then they proceeded to try to flirt with me afterward! But almost none of them could bring themselves to let their guard down and just simply say, "Yes, I am single! Are you?" Is that really so difficult? They seem to think that having their guard up will filter out all the unworthy men, but does it ever occur to them that the good guys aren't interested in wasting their time trying to break through the defenses?

 

I once heard some girl who was sitting with her friends, who overheard me do my thing, say, "OH MY GOD, DID YOU GUYS SEE THAT??? THAT WAS SOOOOO SWEEET!" I thought, yeah, it looks sweet when you witness it from a distance but when you're being asked directly you get weird and scared. Silly girls!

 

 

and there will be "excessively yang men" who say "dude, wtf just TELL HER, COMMAND HER to give you her number, like a REAL MAN."

 

Seriously though, that's not at all polite. SHe will sense if you're cautious about it, and tell you nobecause you're not "confident enough" in being a cocky callous and overcontrolling dominating jerk.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Enishi]

Great post Jeremy!

 

I would add though that flirting doesn't have to equal manipulation or subtle mind games, it can just be playful teasing and sexual escalation.

[markern]

Flirting isen`t insincere just because the words are actual lies. THe point is that you are expressing emotions and meaning through your body language and through the subtext to teh actual words ratehr than the words. That is actually very similar to any sort of in person communication wether between friends, colleges or parents and children. It just gets a bit more exreme in flirting. So I think you put too much emphasis on the words. THrough talking about completely different things you could have communicated your interest and she could have communicated hers. Even dispite possibly saying "lies" about realtionship status and other things this would have been honest in my opinion.

[sifusufi]

 

Everywhere I go people are mesmerized by their techno gadgets

 

 

 

Really does take out the human element dosen't it?

 

However I "get" a # of folks here just by the way they phrase!

[Non]

Great post Jeremy!

 

I would add though that flirting doesn't have to equal manipulation or subtle mind games, it can just be playful teasing and sexual escalation.

 

I think it's mostly about women having unrealistic expectations,like a man needs to be like what is portrayed in hollywood movies or pop culture. Men don't have to be entertainers and that's really in the eye of the beholder... I mean ok, we don't have jokes to come up with on the spot, we don't have sexy things to say to lure you, wth I thought seduction was a Woman's job.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[sifusufi]

Great post Jeremy!

 

I would add though that flirting doesn't have to equal manipulation or subtle mind games, it can just be playful teasing and sexual escalation.

 

Good one!

 

 

 

Time is short... life is good

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=SPPvSiFLyXA

[Sloppy Zhang]

But sadly, they seem to be so stuck that they actually found ways to adapt their flirting patterns to my sincerity. For example, one girl I asked a few years ago who worked at a grocery store I was frequenting said no, she's not single. I happily said OK, smiled, and walked away. Then she said "But HEY, props for askin!" then proceeded to draw me into conversation about the bread! I realized that it was all just part of her "game", which really felt kind of yucky, because here I was trying to be sincere and she sort of threw it back in my face. Anyway, as I continued shopping at that store, I would give her a brief nod and say hi if I saw her, which is exactly what I do with any person I recognize anywhere. She would often look away and pretend to ignore me. I felt a bit sorry for her. Then one day I was at the deli putting some food in a bowl, and I hear this loud "HOW ARE YOU!!!" right in my ear. It startled me and I spun around, and there she was standing inches from me. I said something like "great, how bout you?" She just stared at me goes "GOOD!" I looked at her and she just stood there staring at me. The look on her face was actually a little creepy! I eventually turned around and went back to getting my food. Sure, most would interpret that as "she was obviously showing interest", but why couldn't she have just been upfront and said, "Hey, remember when you asked if I was single and I said no? Well I am now," or, "I was scared by how direct you were so I lied, I actually am single." That would have been a beautiful moment of honesty that I would have totally appreciated. But she could only do what she was trained to do by society, which was to throw out clues without being direct. Of course, if I had made another "move", she probably would have backed off again to draw me into the whole flirting pattern.

 

Did it ever occur to you that YOU are being the rude one? You understand that people are doing what they are trained to do by society, you understand that most of them do not have a handle on straightforward honesty, and then you FAULT them for that? YOU are actually being quite insensitive to THEM, because YOU are acting like, "oh, well I know the real truth, this is how you should live your life, this is how you should meet people, if you can't conform to my standards, then you don't deserve to be in a relationship with me."

 

I see this attitude a lot in the posts that are like, "I can't get along with the rest of humanity, I just want to go away and be a hermit" and blah blah blah. It's like, what happened to compassion? What happened to connecting with fellow human beings? What happened to helping one another?

 

I've found that while, over the course of my practice, I have found myself changing a bit, I've also found myself understanding the mechanisms by which other people behave, because I disassemble the ones that govern my actions. And when I do so, I can't hold contempt for those people, because I know that what I'm experiencing doesn't even cross their mind.

 

Rather than giving up on them, I instead make an effort to interact in such a way that they'll understand, to help them see another way of living and acting through their lens.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone take part in deceit. I am not suggesting that someone compromise their morals, or compromise the integrity of another person, just to get laid. I am suggesting that people get down off their high horse, see how people are actually living, and see how you can connect to people IN THE REAL WORLD!

 

I would add though that flirting doesn't have to equal manipulation or subtle mind games, it can just be playful teasing and sexual escalation.

 

+1

 

Flirting isen`t insincere just because the words are actual lies. THe point is that you are expressing emotions and meaning through your body language and through the subtext to teh actual words ratehr than the words. That is actually very similar to any sort of in person communication wether between friends, colleges or parents and children. It just gets a bit more exreme in flirting. So I think you put too much emphasis on the words. THrough talking about completely different things you could have communicated your interest and she could have communicated hers. Even dispite possibly saying "lies" about realtionship status and other things this would have been honest in my opinion.

 

+1

 

And given that through various means of socialization, people have gotten to a point where being direct can be, at the very worst, wrong, and at the very best, highly uncomfortable, you've got to be able to relate to them, and make them comfortable.

 

Even if the person likes you, if you rock their world too much, they're going to feel uncomfortable around you, they're going to feel like they can't get a handle on you or the situation, and they are going to pass on you. Take their feelings into consideration, try to see it through their perspective, and act in such a way that it makes them comfortable to ease into the situation.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think it's mostly about women having unrealistic expectations,like a man needs to be like what is portrayed in hollywood movies or pop culture. Men don't have to be entertainers and that's really in the eye of the beholder... I mean ok, we don't have jokes to come up with on the spot, we don't have sexy things to say to lure you, wth I thought seduction was a Woman's job.

 

As evidence by the part in bold, women have expectations of men, and men have expectations of women.

 

Growing up in society, various things (friends and family, entertainment, life experiences, etc) tells you how you are supposed to perform your gender roles. People expect the things they have been told to expect. When they meet someone who breaks the mold, they are uncomfortable, so they desperately try to fit that mold, thinking that everyone "should" fit that mold, when guess what? NOBODY FITS THE MOLD!

 

It's the greatest lie that anyone has ever told, and it's marketing 101- make everyone think that everyone else is behaving a certain way, even if nobody else is going a certain way.

 

I've had a few political science classes, where you look at polling data vs. government decisions. Initial polls show people behave a certain way, but suddenly all the newspapers make articles saying, "America thinks the other way", so everyone thinks everyone else is thinking the other way, so they think the other way too! AND IT'S ALL A LIE!

 

NOBODY fits the mold, and even if you talk to the most stereotypical person you can think of, you'll find that to be the case. But guess what? YOU'VE GOT TO RELATE TO THEM ON THEIR TERMS!

 

I've met plenty of women who'd be considered "air heads", who just color their hair a certain way and do their make up just so, but when you talk to them, they actually have quite a bit going on up there, but they don't ever let anybody catch on, because that's not how they're "supposed" to act. But to get to that point you've gotta get them to a point where they feel comfortable opening up, where they feel like you aren't going to judge them for that, where they feel like you can both relate on the level you are "supposed" to relate to, where they don't feel like they're taking too big of a risk, because most people don't like taking risks, they like to stay in their comfort zone!!!!

 

Seriously, I don't know how many more ways I can articulate this point......

[Non]

Did it ever occur to you that YOU are being the rude one? You understand that people are doing what they are trained to do by society, you understand that most of them do not have a handle on straightforward honesty, and then you FAULT them for that? YOU are actually being quite insensitive to THEM, because YOU are acting like, "oh, well I know the real truth, this is how you should live your life, this is how you should meet people, if you can't conform to my standards, then you don't deserve to be in a relationship with me."

 

I see this attitude a lot in the posts that are like, "I can't get along with the rest of humanity, I just want to go away and be a hermit" and blah blah blah. It's like, what happened to compassion? What happened to connecting with fellow human beings? What happened to helping one another?

 

I've found that while, over the course of my practice, I have found myself changing a bit, I've also found myself understanding the mechanisms by which other people behave, because I disassemble the ones that govern my actions. And when I do so, I can't hold contempt for those people, because I know that what I'm experiencing doesn't even cross their mind.

 

Rather than giving up on them, I instead make an effort to interact in such a way that they'll understand, to help them see another way of living and acting through their lens.

 

I am not suggesting that anyone take part in deceit. I am not suggesting that someone compromise their morals, or compromise the integrity of another person, just to get laid. I am suggesting that people get down off their high horse, see how people are actually living, and see how you can connect to people IN THE REAL WORLD!

 

 

 

+1

 

 

 

+1

 

And given that through various means of socialization, people have gotten to a point where being direct can be, at the very worst, wrong, and at the very best, highly uncomfortable, you've got to be able to relate to them, and make them comfortable.

 

Even if the person likes you, if you rock their world too much, they're going to feel uncomfortable around you, they're going to feel like they can't get a handle on you or the situation, and they are going to pass on you. Take their feelings into consideration, try to see it through their perspective, and act in such a way that it makes them comfortable to ease into the situation.

 

 

yea well I've seen and experienced that most women don't even really want to connect on a real level. It seems they will ONLY even try to be friendly and "truly connect" with a male unless he lives up to their expectations of "sexual game", which is largely based on Hollywood portrayals of men.

 

Where's the Real "connection" you're talking about here then? Where's the Real connection any woman really talks about?

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

NO, I will not GIVE IN to thinking that it's NORMAL to think that NO REALLY MEANS YES when it comes to "subtle cues" which ONLY PEOPLE "IN THE KNOW" know about it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, Non, I hate to break it to you, but that's how it is. There is a lot more to communication than what is just verbally being said, and it's just a fact that there are some people who have a harder time picking up on that than others, and they suffer for a long time with it if they don't know what's going on.

 

So you need to find out if that applies to you.

 

It's a social structure that implies that there are certain initiates (those in the know, or initiates accepted into an "order") and those NOT in the know.

 

Yes. When you are born into a society, or if you move into a society, there are unspoken rules that people just assume you know. And if you break those rules, they will look down on you. This is why foreign relations is an important field, because what's good to you might be terrible for other people, and if you don't understand this, it is not going to be fun for you.

 

It is based on INEQUALITY and it's main purpose is DECEPTION.

 

It's not deception, because it's SHARED. Each person is supposed to know about it. You're supposed to know if someone is actually saying, "you're a stalker" or are just teasing you for always bumping into you!

 

This is NOT good whether it's considered "normal" or "good" by the majority of a populace!

 

It's only "not good" if you suffer because you don't get it.

 

This is meant to have people classed as "popular" and "unpopular". Just like high school, or college fraternities."Cool" and "uncool".

 

People never grow up.

 

So, again, Non, WHAT IS IT YOU WANT?

 

This whole system seems to really bother you, despite the fact that you don't like it and claim you don't want to be a part of it. Yet this seems to bring you a great deal of pain, and it seems you've had some greatly painful experiences in the past.

 

I really think you need to (and in a way, are trying to) reconcile your own opinions with what's going on in society. And I'm trying to tell you that one option might just be that you aren't wired to get what everyone else is doing. Getting a professional to say one way or the other would really, REALLY help.

 

I am FINE the way I am.

 

So why do you keep trying to increase your penis size, complain about how you'll never get anywhere in life because you're too yin, or because other people don't understand you and judge you down?

 

If you're fine, why do you start a thread like this every other week?

 

If you're fine, why have you made multiple comments which suggest you are considering suicide?

 

It just doesn't add up.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Non]

Well, Non, I hate to break it to you, but that's how it is. There is a lot more to communication than what is just verbally being said, and it's just a fact that there are some people who have a harder time picking up on that than others, and they suffer for a long time with it if they don't know what's going on.

 

So you need to find out if that applies to you.

 

 

 

Yes. When you are born into a society, or if you move into a society, there are unspoken rules that people just assume you know. And if you break those rules, they will look down on you. This is why foreign relations is an important field, because what's good to you might be terrible for other people, and if you don't understand this, it is not going to be fun for you.

 

 

 

It's not deception, because it's SHARED. Each person is supposed to know about it. You're supposed to know if someone is actually saying, "you're a stalker" or are just teasing you for always bumping into you!

 

 

 

So why do you keep trying to increase your penis size, complain about how you'll never get anywhere in life because you're too yin, or because other people don't understand you and judge you down?

 

If you're fine, why do you start a thread like this every other week?

 

If you're fine, why have you made multiple comments which suggest you are considering suicide?

 

It just doesn't add up.

 

are we talking about the "social cues" which UNONSCIOUSLY are "supposed" to tell a man that when a woman says "no", it really means "yes?"

 

That when she says you're being abusive you're actually being sexy? That when you're taking advantage, controlling, hurting, being overly callous, being a jerk, being perverted, showing criminal traits, you're actually BEING SO DOMINANT AND MURDEROUS OF GOOD MEN THAT ITS HOT ENOUGH SHE WOULD LET YOU DO THE MOST VILE AND BORDERLINE CRMIMINAL IF NOT CRIMINAL acts to her without any of her conscious or overt control or recognition of her own?

 

cuz that's what I'm talking about, and only what I'm talking about.

 

It's all raelly about the war against other men. Show a woman the heads of men you cut off and she'll be orgasmic.

 

 

Cuz that's all you see in nature in every single animal species on the planet. Nothing but fierce competition. However subtle or explicit it be, it all boils down to that.

 

Women don't want equality. If all men were sexy she would not like it, she wants inequality. She wants to see men warring each other. THat's how she gets off.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

That when she says you're being abusive you're actually being sexy? That when you're taking advantage, controlling, hurting, being overly callous, being a jerk, being perverted, showing criminal traits, you're actually BEING SO DOMINANT AND MURDEROUS OF GOOD MEN THAT ITS HOT ENOUGH SHE WOULD LET YOU DO THE MOST VILE AND BORDERLINE CRMIMINAL IF NOT CRIMINAL acts to her without any of her conscious or overt control or recognition of her own?

 

cuz that's what I'm talking about, and only what I'm talking about.

 

You have to know when people are being serious, or if they are role playing some kind of fantasy, or if they've got some kind of mental conditioning in which they actually attach to their abuser.

 

And unless you are able to correctly interpret what people are ACTUALLY saying (through more than just verbal), then you aren't in a very good position to accurately see what's going on.

 

So I think you should talk to somebody to see if they can figure out if you've got a brain which doesn't interpret social cues in the way that many other people do.

 

I also think you should talk to someone about where your ideas come from, and how you view yourself in relation to those ideas.

 

I also think it's very, VERY important for you to remember that there is no such thing as "normal". It's impossible for you to sit here and say, "this is what women are attracted to", "this is how men should behave" and vice versa. Too many people, too many preferences.

[gendao]

I've pretty much resigned to the fact that most women aren't ready for that level of sincerity and directness.

Well, women prefer drama & games to get their emotional highs. That's why they love watching soap operas and reading romance novels full of plot twists, etc.

 

Otherwise, they'd just be watching straight pr0n with no plots.

 

Hey, are you single?

Umm.. *bat eyes*

Wanna f***?

Uhhh...okk

*action*

The End

[markern]

 

 

It's not deception, because it's SHARED.

 

Nice! I`ll remember that one. Key insight IMO.

[Non]

You have to know when people are being serious, or if they are role playing some kind of fantasy, or if they've got some kind of mental conditioning in which they actually attach to their abuser.

 

And unless you are able to correctly interpret what people are ACTUALLY saying (through more than just verbal), then you aren't in a very good position to accurately see what's going on.

 

So I think you should talk to somebody to see if they can figure out if you've got a brain which doesn't interpret social cues in the way that many other people do.

 

I also think you should talk to someone about where your ideas come from, and how you view yourself in relation to those ideas.

 

I also think it's very, VERY important for you to remember that there is no such thing as "normal". It's impossible for you to sit here and say, "this is what women are attracted to", "this is how men should behave" and vice versa. Too many people, too many preferences.

 

You are being contradictory here. YOu're saying that there isn't a such thing as "normal" yet there are normal social cues which shd be memorized, or even picked up on?

 

FIrst of all, most of the theory that says "if a person has his arms crossed it means he's closed off" bs is truly BS. Those theories are overgeneralizations. Not all people who cross their arms are closed off,mad, etc.

 

A woman flips her hair, uncontrollably like an unconscious dog, touches her hair, etc. Or maybe she's doing that on purpose because, only an alpha male can sense that a woman who flips her hair constantly is unconsciously wet.

 

Yea, I do know "subtle social cues", I've read all about these things. I probably haven't gone through the most complete list available on the MARKET but I have some familiarity with them, have noticed them in some people, haven't in others.

 

Sometimes it makes me question if this or that. It's really trivial, sometimes it is true sometimes it isn't. Im not going to question every single detail.

 

Am I supposed to "unconsciously" pick up on social cues? Because I'm alpha male, I'm supposed to pick up on subtle pheremones being secreted out of a woman's vagina in the general area? or see that a woman who's constantly sticking her ass out really wants me to notice her, etc. or she just does that on purpose etc.

 

yea I do take notice of these things but Im not dumb enough to uncosnciously make generalizations on every single subtle detail.

 

Can't women just be direct or atleast be honest or do they always have to communicate through subtle cues, and CONSTANTLY making new ones, for the "alpha male initiates" they choose to circulate through?

 

Like for example: red dyed hair. That's become popular a few times in the past. What does this signify? Am I supposed to populate that this woman is freaky?

 

Ok another one: plastic breakable wristbands in different colors that signify sexual acts she would perform on strangers or people in the same social circle of initiates who know just wtf it means, and only "alpha males" would know.

 

Ok.. body splashes of different smells signify how horny she is. BOdy splashes that have pheremones mixed in.

 

Tight latex pants, telling men she's ovulating and wants to be looked at but only by dominant alpha males that know about her "signals", even though it's commonly considered disrespectul.

 

 

ok... she's wearin a long dress and you know that such a sexy woman doesn't wear long dresses to signify she is conservative but perhaps is not wearing panties or is actually a freak underneath.

 

Black nails, black jeans.

 

Camel toes which show she's not wearing panties, or skimpy panties. Thongs which show over her jeans. Low cut jeans. Commonly considered disrespectful to look at but only alpha male dominant men or men who are confident enough to look at them because they are inherently disrespectful, they show that they want to be done hard and roughly in bed. So they will accept disrespectful acts in communication. She acts like a bitch most of the time because she wants to be put in her place like a little girl dominated by big daddy. She wants to be treated like a whore because she wears whore clothing. She wears NOTHING like a whores clothing because she wants to appear reserved when really she's not reserved underneath. She looks like she doesn't take care of herself because she always ready to be sexed on the spot, she doesn't waste time with makeup. She WASTES time on make up because she wants to be done so roughly that her make up goes all over the place she looks like she's been abused but she likes it because it makes it seem like she was dominating by a FEIRCELY dominant man and makes her feel like the center of the universe in knowing she was dominated by the most dominant man who was SO uncontrollably horny that he couldn't control himself or just couldn't give a shit what she or other male would want to stop him even if he was hurting her. Accepting abuse makes her feel on top of the world and other men who were afraid to abuse her, because only men brave enough to abuse her show that they really have power.

 

The need to come up to her overtly and whisper in her ear because she has a bitch shield which wards off men who are afraid of invading her personal space out of nowhere from behind.

 

Oh well these are uncosncious? They're not all unconscious I'm sure. If they are, are they retarded? And to see when men go crazy because THEY MAKE MEN GO CRAZY. IN FACT THEY WANTED THEM TO GO CRAZY!?

Edited February 27, 2011 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

You are being contradictory here. YOu're saying that there isn't a such thing as "normal" yet there are normal social cues which shd be memorized, or even picked up on?

 

There is no normal.

 

However, there is a perception of normal, and people try to fit that perception, which they think other people have. Likewise, other people try to fit into the perception of normal.

 

Everyone thinks that they are weird, and that nobody else has anything to hide. When in reality, everybody is hiding their true selves, true thoughts, true feelings, true preferences, etc etc. Nobody will admit it. People don't like to be called out on it.

 

FIrst of all, most of the theory that says "if a person has his arms crossed it means he's closed off" bs is truly BS. Those theories are overgeneralizations. Not all people who cross their arms are closed off,mad, etc.

 

I agree.

 

A woman flips her hair, uncontrollably like an unconscious dog, touches her hair, etc. Or maybe she's doing that on purpose because, only an alpha male can sense that a woman who flips her hair constantly is unconsciously wet.

 

.... huh?

 

Yea, I do know "subtle social cues", I've read all about these things. I probably haven't gone through the most complete list available on the MARKET but I have some familiarity with them, have noticed them in some people, haven't in others.

 

If you have to read about them, it means you don't know them. You get them through personal experience, observation, trial and error.

 

Sometimes it makes me question if this or that. It's really trivial, sometimes it is true sometimes it isn't. Im not going to question every single detail.

 

Exactly, sometimes it's true, sometimes it isn't. You can't just say, "oh yeah, she's crossed her arms, she's pissed" and "well she's flipping her hair, she wants some action". You've gotta look at everything that's going on. And some people just can't do that.

 

Am I supposed to "unconsciously" pick up on social cues?

 

That's kind of the idea. People have varying degrees of realization about how the process is working, and how they are going about it. Some people learn the process and manipulate it. Like guys trying to pick up girls. Or girls trying to pick up guys.

 

yea I do take notice of these things but Im not dumb enough to uncosnciously make generalizations on every single subtle detail.

 

That's why you DON'T make generalizations. You read each situation as it happens.

 

Can't women people just be direct or atleast be honest

 

Fixed that for you.

 

And as much as I would like that to happen, it isn't going to happen any time soon. So you just have to figure out what it is you want out of life.

 

Do you want to not care, do what you do, and not give a flying fuck about what other people think? Or are you going to beat yourself up every time you see some dude out with some hot chick, having sex, getting a successful life, just because other people can't see he's a jerk and the only reason everybody likes him is because he's playing the system, all because that's not the life you have because you aren't a sucker?

[Non]

You are being contradictory here. YOu're saying that there isn't a such thing as "normal" yet there are normal social cues which shd be memorized, or even picked up on?

 

FIrst of all, most of the theory that says "if a person has his arms crossed it means he's closed off" bs is truly BS. Those theories are overgeneralizations. Not all people who cross their arms are closed off,mad, etc.

 

A woman flips her hair, uncontrollably like an unconscious dog, touches her hair, etc. Or maybe she's doing that on purpose because, only an alpha male can sense that a woman who flips her hair constantly is unconsciously wet.

 

Yea, I do know "subtle social cues", I've read all about these things. I probably haven't gone through the most complete list available on the MARKET but I have some familiarity with them, have noticed them in some people, haven't in others.

 

Sometimes it makes me question if this or that. It's really trivial, sometimes it is true sometimes it isn't. Im not going to question every single detail.

 

Am I supposed to "unconsciously" pick up on social cues? Because I'm alpha male, I'm supposed to pick up on subtle pheremones being secreted out of a woman's vagina in the general area? or see that a woman who's constantly sticking her ass out really wants me to notice her, etc. or she just does that on purpose etc.

 

yea I do take notice of these things but Im not dumb enough to uncosnciously make generalizations on every single subtle detail.

 

Can't women just be direct or atleast be honest or do they always have to communicate through subtle cues, and CONSTANTLY making new ones, for the "alpha male initiates" they choose to circulate through?

 

Like for example: red dyed hair. That's become popular a few times in the past. What does this signify? Am I supposed to populate that this woman is freaky?

 

Ok another one: plastic breakable wristbands in different colors that signify sexual acts she would perform on strangers or people in the same social circle of initiates who know just wtf it means, and only "alpha males" would know.

 

Ok.. body splashes of different smells signify how horny she is. BOdy splashes that have pheremones mixed in.

 

Tight latex pants, telling men she's ovulating and wants to be looked at but only by dominant alpha males that know about her "signals", even though it's commonly considered disrespectul.

 

 

ok... she's wearin a long dress and you know that such a sexy woman doesn't wear long dresses to signify she is conservative but perhaps is not wearing panties or is actually a freak underneath.

 

Black nails, black jeans.

 

Camel toes which show she's not wearing panties, or skimpy panties. Thongs which show over her jeans. Low cut jeans. Commonly considered disrespectful to look at but only alpha male dominant men or men who are confident enough to look at them because they are inherently disrespectful, they show that they want to be done hard and roughly in bed. So they will accept disrespectful acts in communication.

 

The need to come up to her overtly and whisper in her ear because she has a bitch shield which wards off men who are afraid of invading her personal space out of nowhere from behind.

 

Oh well these are uncosncious? They're not all unconscious I'm sure.

 

 

So as I said before, MOST OF THESE SUBTLE CUES ARE NOT ALWAYS SHARED. SOme of them might be unconscious, some of them not. Some women are always poker faced. Some women are extravagant. Some women want to manipulate men unonsciously. Some women want to abuse men by overstimulating their sight-sense. Some women want to only attract certain men by setting up the field how THEY WANT TO.

 

Then science tells you "it's all unconscious acts that they want to be dominated". BS.

 

If so, then all these damn uncsoncious social cues make them look like the most unconscious creatures on Earth

[Sloppy Zhang]

So as I said before, MOST OF THESE SUBTLE CUES ARE NOT ALWAYS SHARED.

 

You misunderstood what I meant by "shared".

 

I said that these cues are not deception, because the idea is that if a girl is flirting with you, you're supposed to know that she's flirting, and flirt back. The meaning is not conveyed through the words. She's not lying to you, because you get her meaning.

 

But the cues are not universal. Different people flirt differently. Some people don't flirt. Some people are rather serious with their words. So actions are not UNIVERSAL. In one instance, a certain action might be a social cue to mean something else. In another instance, it could be a quite literal message.

 

SOme of them might be unconscious, some of them not. Some women are always poker faced. Some women are extravagant. Some women want to manipulate men unonsciously. Some women want to abuse men by overstimulating their sight-sense. Some women want to only attract certain men by setting up the field how THEY WANT TO.

 

And then some women just want an honest, no bullshit relationship.

 

Then science tells you "it's all unconscious acts that they want to be dominated". BS.

 

Yes, it's bs, because science is not telling you that they wall want to be dominated

 

If so, then all these damn uncsoncious social cues make them look like the most unconscious creatures on Earth

 

that's funny!

 

But the same could be said for most people.

 

They are just acting out social scripts, pre-made sets of behavior for how to behave in any given social situation. "Ah, I'm at work, I should behave as an employee does in this situation. Oh, now I'm at Church, better put on my religious self. Now I'm at the club, time to be the party person!"

[Non]

You misunderstood what I meant by "shared".

 

I said that these cues are not deception, because the idea is that if a girl is flirting with you, you're supposed to know that she's flirting, and flirt back. The meaning is not conveyed through the words. She's not lying to you, because you get her meaning.

 

 

but she tries to hide it and act bitchy so that if you Don't know or don't act on it because you're afraid of disrespecting her it means you're not "alpha" enough to not care about doing something wrong becuase you don't have "enough power", because you don't pwn shitz.