The Truth of another is as important to them as your own is to you

[InfinityTruth]

I was meditating on less pride recently when a realization came to me that others truths are as important (sometimes even more important) to them as my own are to me. Like its one thing to just parrot those words. But to really understand that wars have been started because of others trying to force their own truths or beliefs onto others. Arguments and losses of friendships erupt when this lack of understanding occurs.

 

I've noticed recently, in little disagreements of my own that something as silly as music, I almost felt obliged to correct the person for saying "Dumbest thing I ever heard." Like the song deteriorated the meaning for myself because he disliked the song...lol all an ego-trip. On this occasion, I actually caught myself though and I replied with a simple(while a bit painful)"Okay."

 

Moved on. No argument and no hard feelings. We remained friends and there was no trouble.

 

What are your thoughts and experience?

[Otis]

Great observations, InfinityTruth.

 

One of my unhelpful habits that I've recently woke up to: starting my response with some form of the word "no".

 

That "no" immediately tells them that I'm not respecting the way they think, even if I think "I'm just being efficient, by getting to the point."

 

Truth is, I realized that I had the habit of starting communications with some sort of contraction or negation, even in some situations in which I agreed with the other person. It was a reflective action, that didn't even seem connected to a goal.

 

Thankfully, I've been paying attention to that for a couple years, with good results. And it gets easier. But I recognize that the habit is still alive in me, if mostly unexpressed.

[Red Pheonix]

I was meditating on less pride recently when a realization came to me that others truths are as important (sometimes even more important) to them as my own are to me. Like its one thing to just parrot those words. But to really understand that wars have been started because of others trying to force their own truths or beliefs onto others. Arguments and losses of friendships erupt when this lack of understanding occurs.

 

I've noticed recently, in little disagreements of my own that something as silly as music, I almost felt obliged to correct the person for saying "Dumbest thing I ever heard." Like the song deteriorated the meaning for myself because he disliked the song...lol all an ego-trip. On this occasion, I actually caught myself though and I replied with a simple(while a bit painful)"Okay."

 

Moved on. No argument and no hard feelings. We remained friends and there was no trouble.

 

What are your thoughts and experience?

 

You've certainly found a great thing to find resolution for (pride), it's an obstacle that every person reading this thread has to deal with. I recently went though a similar course of discovery so I'll share what I discovered with you. I believe that in the end, we can find a place where indifference doesn't bother us; it's all about your perspective though.

 

At first I thought that pride only stemmed from ego or the identity that we choose to associate ourselves with. For example, a guy has a great self image because he's a muscle bound man with money and a nice car. If you threaten his self image then pride pops up and causes him to act like an ass, or perhaps life threatens his self image; let's say he looses his car and money... now he's afraid to face the world because he can only accept himself as the perfect image that he decided he was. This is a true scenario and it illustrates the idea that we must be ok with being nothing... to know our true identity which is not a material one.

 

Last fall I was shown a new perspective which helped me with my pride. I realized that much of my pride stemmed from entitlement... and oh man is that a nasty sort of pride. We feel entitled to a thing we are unwilling to accept anything else. It's easy for our opinions to become something that we feel entitled to, then we become all to serious about enforcing our agenda and blind ourselves. In the end, all entitlement and pride stem from insecurity and not knowing ones self. In the end we can find our substance in love, it's the only thing that you can associate with yourself no matter what. No matter what you go through or what you loose, you always have love (if you choose to).

 

I also started to realize the connection between judgement and pride. Judgment is a nasty thing too, it will pile so much crap up on your heart that it can't even see the light of day. In my efforts to curve my judgement, I was also able to curve my pride. It's ok to observe a thing, but judgement is when you set your heart against that thing and it's easier to do than we might think. In the end, judgement just binds us and blinds us; it also incurs karma. It may take time to get to where we can stop judging things, but it's a beautiful way to be. When you're not worried about judging things, your pride doesn't rear it's ugly head so much. For myself, reading the book of proverbs (in the bible) was a major help in understanding the mechanics of judgement and pride. It has a lot of simple and straight forward observations which are born of wisdom herself, if you simply follow the advice there you'll learn soooo much and gain wisdom. Even still, we're humans and that's a great task in its self. King Solomon wrote most of proverbs, it's said that god gave him wisdom beyond that of any man... he did so because when he asked Solomon what he wanted, his reply was wisdom to rule people... a non selfish request. What happened to that guy in the end though? He went against his own rules and wisdom, he went out like any other fool although he did leave us with a great literary legacy. Just goes to show, being a human is hard!

 

You're walking in a great direction brother, I'm glad that you shared this with us... it's something we all wrestle with

[Marblehead]

I was meditating on less pride recently when a realization came to me that others truths are as important (sometimes even more important) to them as my own are to me.

 

 

I totally agree, and yes, great observations.

[manitou]

Nice topic, Infinity.

 

I had an interesting thing happen this morning at Tim Hortons when we went for a cup of coffee.

 

This place is always crowded. One of the more vocal folks who goes there each morning is a Presbyterian minister named Mark. (Mind you, I'm in the bible belt of Ohio). He reaches out to his "flock" everywhere - every time I see him in Hortons, he's got part of his flock around him and he's holding court. Seems like an awfully nice fellow, but way to zealously religious for the tastes of anyone in this forum.

 

I've always avoided him, judged him rather cavalierly because "that's where I came from, I've evolved way beyond this now." What kind of crap judgement is that?

 

I watched him this morning, one more prosthelytizing to the people sitting at his table. I actually felt a little love for him this morning, I don't know why. Maybe I was just in a really good place. In fact, I walked up to him and introduced myself, told him I wanted to talk to him some time in the future. His eyes of course lit up like stars, thinking a new lamb was potentially coming into the flock.

 

What I do want to talk to him about are some of the things we talk about here. How does he get his flock to be aware of the inner work? Does he care about the inner work at all? When I mentioned it, he said "Oh yeah, that's the holy spirit", but then he changed the subject. I think a nice long loving conversation with this fellow could go a long way to planting a seed in this arrogant little Christian area. Like a new ripple in a pool. He seems like such a nice fellow, I'll bet he'd be receptive to the idea.

 

Now I'm excited to talk to him. I feel no more judgment. I am a little more liberated today.

[thelerner]

I was meditating on less pride recently when a realization came to me that others truths are as important (sometimes even more important) to them as my own are to me. Like its one thing to just parrot those words. But to really understand that wars have been started because of others trying to force their own truths or beliefs onto others. Arguments and losses of friendships erupt when this lack of understanding occurs.

 

I've noticed recently, in little disagreements of my own that something as silly as music, I almost felt obliged to correct the person for saying "Dumbest thing I ever heard." Like the song deteriorated the meaning for myself because he disliked the song...lol all an ego-trip. On this occasion, I actually caught myself though and I replied with a simple(while a bit painful)"Okay."

 

Moved on. No argument and no hard feelings. We remained friends and there was no trouble.

 

What are your thoughts and experience?

 

A common denominator in fights I've gotten into here is when I've taken an intellectual approach where someone else is passionate. I've coldly dismissed or argued against someone dreams. The result is ill feelings and no ones changed there positions or truly heard the other person, its just antagonism.

 

These days, if I see someone is passionate and I disagree with them, I'll ask questions, instead of dismissing it. Work harder at understanding first, not immediately countering. Course old habits die hard. But I've made apologies to some of the people I've had fights with. And I welcome getting into heated intellectual arguments as long as both sides are on the same semi-dispassionate page.

 

Michael

[moonshadow]

A common denominator in fights I've gotten into here is when I've taken an intellectual approach where someone else is passionate. I've coldly dismissed or argued against someone dreams. The result is ill feelings and no ones changed there positions or truly heard the other person, its just antagonism.

 

These days, if I see someone is passionate and I disagree with them, I'll ask questions, instead of dismissing it. Work harder at understanding first, not immediately countering. Course old habits die hard. But I've made apologies to some of the people I've had fights with. And I welcome getting into heated intellectual arguments as long as both sides are on the same semi-dispassionate page.

 

Michael

Cool Beans

[Easy]

 

These days, if I see someone is passionate and I disagree with them, I'll ask questions, instead of dismissing it. Work harder at understanding first...

 

I would have said the same thing, but these dudes around here might know I'm too likely to shoot from the hip before I can think straight and they'd call me a liar.

 

But what you wrote has all the wisdom that we need to read.

[2netis]

Ahhhh, Truth. Good one certainly.

 

I am thinking that the truth of another is more important to me than my own truth. I sense that I have to look at what I am calling truth and at who is it that has this truth. And what, after all, is another's truth, to me when it is not something I choose to align or contrast in some way to my own satisfaction? On the good days, I can do that - not align it with my own for comparison.

 

It is a given, in a Buddhist or Taoist context, that whatever I think is truth, has just immediately lost it's life. It has been forever memorialized in cast concrete and sunk to the bottom of the bay. And for me it usually has chains on it which are attached to my own ankle.

 

Truth actually changes from this moment to the next or it is not truth at all. Moral and ethical action, in the moment, is literally a no-brainer. Legislating morality or truth is so very dangerous - even while only doing it in my own mind.

 

When I can manage it, I find another's truth to be a kindly wake-up for awareness itself. It is not as if the thought that is now perceived to be "truth" is Out There somewhere! It is not actually some toreador's red cape.

 

And there are those days I that might charge at everything in sight - those days when I seem to work painfully for someone else.

 

Best wishes

[Otis]

Now I'm excited to talk to him. I feel no more judgment. I am a little more liberated today.

Awesome, Manitou!

[Otis]

These days, if I see someone is passionate and I disagree with them, I'll ask questions, instead of dismissing it. Work harder at understanding first, not immediately countering.

Excellent, Michael! Good for those you interact with, but even better for yourself!

[Otis]

Ahhhh, Truth. Good one certainly.

 

I am thinking that the truth of another is more important to me than my own truth. I sense that I have to look at what I am calling truth and at who is it that has this truth. And what, after all, is another's truth, to me when it is not something I choose to align or contrast in some way to my own satisfaction? On the good days, I can do that - not align it with my own for comparison.

 

It is a given, in a Buddhist or Taoist context, that whatever I think is truth, has just immediately lost it's life. It has been forever memorialized in cast concrete and sunk to the bottom of the bay. And for me it usually has chains on it which are attached to my own ankle.

 

Truth actually changes from this moment to the next or it is not truth at all. Moral and ethical action, in the moment, is literally a no-brainer. Legislating morality or truth is so very dangerous - even while only doing it in my own mind.

 

When I can manage it, I find another's truth to be a kindly wake-up for awareness itself. It is not as if the thought that is now perceived to be "truth" is Out There somewhere! It is not actually some toreador's red cape.

 

And there are those days I that might charge at everything in sight - those days when I seem to work painfully for someone else.

 

Best wishes

Wow! This is really great! Taking it to the next level!

[FT88]

[InfinityTruth]

[Marblehead]

I remember reading a zen tale a long time ago similar to what the OP is talking about.

 

Yes. Good story. The truth is what we want to believe.

[Spectrum]

Edited February 19, 2011 by Spectrum

[manitou]

wow

[moonshadow]

OK All the happy piggy love. BUT who the heck is Leann Sidhe?

[Spectrum]

She's my bottom bitch.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Are other peoples truths really truths or delusions?

 

I have several friends in real life who are into wicca and high "magick" and every week they are so thoroughly convinced that this time their new occult knowledge and spells and rituals will allow them to obtain obscene wealth and or win the lottery or something equally as grandiose.

 

It's been like this since I met them in high school and they still live in their parents basement. So thoroughly convinced that this time they have the correct formula.

 

Quite a lot of people here have practices with no stated goals, but they are convinced their way is best, even though they have no idea what their practices are even supposed to do.

 

From my perspective quite a lot of other peoples truths are just delusions.

 

I agree with you though, that pointing out facts such as these to deluded people probably isn't a good idea. It serves no purpose, and will only cause problems.

 

 

I was meditating on less pride recently when a realization came to me that others truths are as important (sometimes even more important) to them as my own are to me. Like its one thing to just parrot those words. But to really understand that wars have been started because of others trying to force their own truths or beliefs onto others. Arguments and losses of friendships erupt when this lack of understanding occurs.

 

I've noticed recently, in little disagreements of my own that something as silly as music, I almost felt obliged to correct the person for saying "Dumbest thing I ever heard." Like the song deteriorated the meaning for myself because he disliked the song...lol all an ego-trip. On this occasion, I actually caught myself though and I replied with a simple(while a bit painful)"Okay."

 

Moved on. No argument and no hard feelings. We remained friends and there was no trouble.

 

What are your thoughts and experience?

Edited February 19, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Otis]

From my perspective quite a lot of other peoples truths are just delusions.

Isn't all "truth" a delusion? Isn't the path out of delusion, through letting go of the "need to know"?

[thelerner]

If a belief leads to results, preferably the ones looked for, then it probably has more reality then beliefs that result in nothing.

 

IMO some beliefs are smarter and more reality based then others. It may be judgemental but I think the wise have more reality based beliefs (even if they're esoteric) and fools have um foolish beliefs. It may be hard to tell the difference at times, but ultimately the wise do well, the foolish, not so much.

 

The principle of hypothesize, test, evaluate still holds sway over me.

 

 

Michael

[Quan Xie]

why bother......

 

Qian Xie

Edited February 19, 2011 by Quan Xie

[InfinityTruth]

Are other peoples truths really truths or delusions?

 

I have several friends in real life who are into wicca and high "magick" and every week they are so thoroughly convinced that this time their new occult knowledge and spells and rituals will allow them to obtain obscene wealth and or win the lottery or something equally as grandiose.

 

It's been like this since I met them in high school and they still live in their parents basement. So thoroughly convinced that this time they have the correct formula.

 

Quite a lot of people here have practices with no stated goals, but they are convinced their way is best, even though they have no idea what their practices are even supposed to do.

 

From my perspective quite a lot of other peoples truths are just delusions.

 

I agree with you though, that pointing out facts such as these to deluded people probably isn't a good idea. It serves no purpose, and will only cause problems.

 

To them it is truth and therefore its as important to them as your own to you. You're looking at it from your perspective and not theirs. Who cares if they're doing rituals and spells and shit. Its their life.

 

In the end if it really is bullshit to them they'll see they aren't getting anywhere they'll evolve their practices into something better.

 

Anyways I get what you're saying. If someone believes something strongly enough, it then becomes truth for them. Respect it, its as important to them as your own to you.

 

Someone from another perspective might think that what you're doing is a delusion. In fact I guarantee it. Christians have atheists and vice-versa(and so on...).

 

Unless you have all the answers, I wouldn't call anyone's practice a delusion.

[Spectrum]

Yeah Gravity is a Delusion

 

See you on the way down.