Repression vs Control

[Astral_Anima]

So when it comes to emotions and such there's two basic theories (that I'm aware of) that seem to be in contradiction of each-other.

 

The first is that if we don't allow ourselves to experience/express emotions then we end up repressing them where they stay "unprocessed" and usually some kind of "regurgitation" is needed to re-experience and express them in order to be "free" of them. This seems to be the consensus of most "shamanic" cultures and certain "spiritual" sects that are now appearing.

 

The second theory is that we simply lack discipline and that we should work at learning to controlling our minds as the mind is a tool that when out of control can cause us to suffer with excessive thoughts and emotions. From my observations it seems most yogic texts and even Buddhist texts support this and call for strict observation and eventually control over one's thoughts/emotions.

 

Perhaps these aren't in conflict, I'm not sure. From my current perspective they seem to be opposites and I'm not quite sure which one would be true. What are your thoughts on this matter. Do you think controlling our thoughts/emotions leads to enlightenment/mastery of mind or does it lead to repression?

 

-Astral

[KCHooligan]

I'm interested in seeing what others think about this one. Definitely the biggest problem area in my life right now is emotions.

 

What I gather from Tao Te Ching is you experience emotions through a two-part process. First part, you go through the emotion completely, feeling it straight through to its finite conclusion. Doing this allows you to let go of it on the other end. The theory here I guess is to suppress any leaves it in your ego for later. Makes sense. The second part is to conciously detach yourself from the emotion as you have it so as to not impulsively act on it. Sounds easy, real tough in practice. But I've been making headway when trying to apply it. The best way for me to do this is remember that the emotion is part of that artifical 'ego-self', and that the eternal me just feels it through the ego. Sort of 3rd party observer. Works good with emotions not rooted in anger. Anger on the other hand, totally still gets me.

[Red Pheonix]

So when it comes to emotions and such there's two basic theories (that I'm aware of) that seem to be in contradiction of each-other.

 

The first is that if we don't allow ourselves to experience/express emotions then we end up repressing them where they stay "unprocessed" and usually some kind of "regurgitation" is needed to re-experience and express them in order to be "free" of them. This seems to be the consensus of most "shamanic" cultures and certain "spiritual" sects that are now appearing.

 

The second theory is that we simply lack discipline and that we should work at learning to controlling our minds as the mind is a tool that when out of control can cause us to suffer with excessive thoughts and emotions. From my observations it seems most yogic texts and even Buddhist texts support this and call for strict observation and eventually control over one's thoughts/emotions.

 

Perhaps these aren't in conflict, I'm not sure. From my current perspective they seem to be opposites and I'm not quite sure which one would be true. What are your thoughts on this matter. Do you think controlling our thoughts/emotions leads to enlightenment/mastery of mind or does it lead to repression?

 

-Astral

 

I think emotions reflect what's inside of us. Since it's just a reflection we shouldn't worry about them per say, but worry about the source that is reflecting them. I'm an emotionally intense being; my anger is intense, my love is intense and the way I feel others is intense. I wouldn't trade that for the world though and it's only an issue when I have the wrong things in my heart. Trying to control your emotions, to me, seems more like trying to control the smoke from a fire... why not just control the fire? It's not even so much a matter of control, as your heart changes so do your thoughts as well as your emotions. Your emotions are a beautiful thing so long as they're reflecting something true. In the end I think it's best to let them be and work on seeing the world in such a way that your heart reacts more in compassion... then you're going to emanate beautiful emotions!

[Marblehead]

Hi Astral,

 

I always enjoy a discussion about our emotions.

 

I love my emotions. They make me feel alive.

 

No, I don't thing the two theories are in conflict. But I will suggest that they both are ineffective in the long run because trying to repress or control our emotions will cause us to be either so screwed up we don't know which way we are going or it will turn us into a person with a heart of stone.

 

I used to repress my emotions. That was bad. Really bad. Never had any inner peace.

 

I can't say I ever tried to control my emotions. Yes, I have controlled my environment so that I would have fewer experiences that bring forth negative emotions.

[fiveelementtao]

The second theory is that we simply lack discipline and that we should work at learning to controlling our minds as the mind is a tool that when out of control can cause us to suffer with excessive thoughts and emotions.

 

When you say "mind" it sounds like intellect to me which is vastly different than true mind. Using the intellect to repress emotions is what modern Westerners do best! The left brain/intellect is not capable of processing emotions so it stuffs them down. This is good during a crisis situation, but once the crisis has passed, then the individual then can feel and process the emotions. So, by not taking the time to process and feel emotions, many modern Westerners are in a continual state of increasing crisis. No wonder we have so many medical issues in the West!

 

Unfortunately, when the intellect is called upon every time there is an intense emotion, then the intellect takes supreme control, it believes it is the true mind. Conversely,The spiritual mind which reflects the spirit enjoys processing emotions and transforming that energy into wisdom and knowledge...

 

P.S. Sorry Astral, I have not called you yet. I've been a little busy on my end...

[Jetsun]

I don't think Buddhism does advocate controlling the mind, rather it teaches you that you have no control in terms of actual power to change your emotions and thoughts when they arise so you have to learn to witness them, it certainly doesn't teach repression.

 

Control and repression is the main agenda of the ego, but that is necessary up to a certain point in your development as you can't just act on every impulse, but then surely in terms of spiritual paths it's all about relaxing and giving up your control but by witnessing you allow all to exist without being controlled by it, any path which teaches repression of anything has got it very wrong in my view.

[bodyoflight]

You guys should learn how to do trekcho

[suninmyeyes]

Hello Astral,

I think its about understanding emotions and their use,how do they form and spring to life.Than choosing to actaccordingly upon emotions if "you"wish so ,rather that react.

[gendao]

I used to be confused at how to handle "negative" emotions..

 

If you just let them out, wouldn't you (as well as others) suffer some damage from such outbursts?

Yet, you definitely didn't want to suppress them, either!!!

And attempting to control them still seems to lead to either one of these routes eventually...

 

So, what was the answer?

 

 

I now believe that the real answer is resolving the specific core issues causing such "negative" emotions (through self-inquiry or other therapy). Then, the negative emotions won't be generated anymore IN THE FIRST PLACE. And THAT is the real key here! You have to cut them all off before the pass!

 

And in my personal trials with this so far, it has been working! So, work on the underlying ISSUES, not the symptomatic EMOTIONS!

Edited February 16, 2011 by vortex

[unmike]

The Vipassana tradition of S.N. Goenka has some pretty excellent advice for this precise question. The article is worth serious contemplation and multiple read-throughs. Lucid, simple, and well supported, my own practice draws largely and successfully from the advice contained within, though I originally came across this information through the book Beyond the Breath, written by a student of this lineage.

 

Long story short, we vacillate between the polar extremes of repression and inability to express our emotions properly and the opposite problem of expressing them in unhealthy ways or inappropriate times. There is, however, a happy, measured middle way. We can learn to let go of our ill attachments to unfair expectations in the moment to moment bustle of our days. This frees us from the two issues above, letting us experience whatever we happen to experience physically and emotionally, without the added suffering our expectations and clinging breeds.

 

Key to unlocking our hearts lies in the tangible link between our emotional state and breathing patterns. Once agitated and sundered from the present moment by some disturbance or other, our breathing halts or disengages from its likewise calm. At the same time, some sort of sensation grips our body. These are the clues we utilize to keep ourselves on track when we falter through anger, excitement, or otherwise.

 

The result of all this tracking and relaxing is a conscious letting go process that, strangely, detaches us from the normal effects we experience from each of the goings-on of our days while somehow allowing us to experience things more clearly, fully, and without undue stress. Aloofness affords us the ironic advantage of better vantage to our reactions and actual feelings. No repression. No lashing out. Serenity. Stillness. Void.

 

Has anyone here ever done a retreat from this tradition? I've been debating doing one for some time now, and looking to refresh my practice.

 

edited for spelling issues

Edited February 16, 2011 by unmike

[manitou]

There's also sort of an odd phenomena that happens as a result of many years of an examined life. The emotions affect us less and less; they are not nearly as devastating as before we had a sense of self. Our emotions can dwell in the void as well, apparently. when we're in a perfectly balanced place it seems like all emotion is transcended.

 

My mantra for day to day life is usually Be Here Now or Do Nothing. Because I suffer from a nervous disorder anyway, maintaining balance is essential to my happiness and things can get real out of whack real fast. Feels like I'm always having to ride the ox in a conscious way to maintain balance; I seem to have no filters left.

[Marblehead]

I used to be confused at how to handle "negative" emotions..

 

If you just let them out, wouldn't you (as well as others) suffer some damage from such outbursts?

Yet, you definitely didn't want to suppress them, either!!!

And attempting to control them still seems to lead to either one of these routes eventually...

 

So, what was the answer?

 

 

I now believe that the real answer is resolving the specific core issues causing such "negative" emotions (through self-inquiry or other therapy). Then, the negative emotions won't be generated anymore IN THE FIRST PLACE. And THAT is the real key here! You have to cut them all off before the pass!

 

And in my personal trials with this so far, it has been working! So, work on the underlying ISSUES, not the symptomatic EMOTIONS!

 

Yep. Two way of dealing with the negative emotions as far as I understand. Release them when we get in a place of solitude so that our actions effect no one else, or, by moving inward, asking ourself why this event caused us these negative emotions. Well, there is a third but not recommended. You could just beat the crap out of the person who cause you the negative emotions.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Marblehead

[manitou]

unfair expectations

 

 

I think unmike said it all here in just two words. Unfair expectations. That's a big cause of negative emotions. We have to learn to put ourselves in the moccasins of another. When we do, we usually find they are just looking out for themselves, not us. Why should they be looking out for us?

 

When Marbles said moving inward to try to get under the negative emotions I think he put his finger on it.

 

To combine the two, what Unmike said, and what Marbles said, is a formula for handling these negative situations. But it does take maturity.

 

I think to master this particular dynamic - what to do with negative emotions - is a big part of allowing the Sage inside us to come out.

[三江源]

Refine, notice, and relate to.

Smile at, care for, respect, contain.

 

 

 

Neither allow supremacy, nor repress, nor control.

[manitou]

Refine, notice, and relate to.

Smile at, care for, respect, contain.

 

 

 

 

 

Perfect.

[Otis]

Fantastic posts, everyone!

[FT88]

OP you should check out a movie called Equalibrium its pretty interesting. As for repressing emotions i think its best to not be swayed either way by them..simply see them as they are but dont get attatched to them. EX: you go on a roller coaster and you love the thrill, but instead of enjoying that moment you seek the next one..its an endless cycle that way..dont mistake pleasure for happiness/contentment.

[Astral_Anima]

OP you should check out a movie called Equalibrium its pretty interesting. As for repressing emotions i think its best to not be swayed either way by them..simply see them as they are but dont get attatched to them. EX: you go on a roller coaster and you love the thrill, but instead of enjoying that moment you seek the next one..its an endless cycle that way..dont mistake pleasure for happiness/contentment.

 

That is one of my FAVORITE movies yo. So is "my dinner with andre", that has an interesting perspective that kinda indirectly relates to this subject.

 

Also to all, thank you for the thought provoking responses. All more are welcome. Very interesting so far

 

-Astral

[LBDaoist]

So when it comes to emotions and such there's two basic theories (that I'm aware of) that seem to be in contradiction of each-other.

 

The first is that if we don't allow ourselves to experience/express emotions then we end up repressing them where they stay "unprocessed" and usually some kind of "regurgitation" is needed to re-experience and express them in order to be "free" of them. This seems to be the consensus of most "shamanic" cultures and certain "spiritual" sects that are now appearing.

 

The second theory is that we simply lack discipline and that we should work at learning to controlling our minds as the mind is a tool that when out of control can cause us to suffer with excessive thoughts and emotions. From my observations it seems most yogic texts and even Buddhist texts support this and call for strict observation and eventually control over one's thoughts/emotions.

 

Perhaps these aren't in conflict, I'm not sure. From my current perspective they seem to be opposites and I'm not quite sure which one would be true. What are your thoughts on this matter. Do you think controlling our thoughts/emotions leads to enlightenment/mastery of mind or does it lead to repression?

 

-Astral

 

In my own life and practice I have found that attempting to repress or shut down thoughts and emotions only leads to problems in the long run. Control has been likened to an illusion. I have had good results with acceptance first, and then guidance. If thoughts or emotions trouble me, I ask myself how else I would rather be behaving, or feeling. I spend some time figuring out where the negative or disturbing thoughts come from, what they relate to, etc. Once that awareness has been established, the thoughts often times resolve themselves. The need for control over them evaporates along with them.

 

So to directly answer your question, CONTROLLING thoughts/emotions leads to repression.

[Non]

Well.. when I became really good at the celibacy thing... I could only do it by control. Though it seemed contradictory, I learned to control it by repression although I thought it was control.

 

I was taught, or I learned that sex was bad, and a waste of energy and came to feel disgusted toward sex and I was "choosing" to never have sex for the rest of my life. I thought it wd make me a God, a superhuman, etc. Mostly this mindset was gotten from the book Practice of Brahmacharya by Sivananda. Therefore it gave me great motivation to achieve a good 2 or so months to be free of sex in mind. Unfortunately for some reason I did fall off the wagon, and it led me to the depths I am in again today. Nowadays, I notice myself trying to control it but am unable to...because I feel that my inexperience, or my BODY feels a need to try and "seek thoughts" of sex because I am inexperienced and it's what I "need" to be normal. Or actually that... since Im "never going to be able to have sex for the rest of my life even though I'm still virile, might as well go wanton and think about sex because I'm repressed". So a lot of times I've ended up wasting quite a bit of time thinking of really intense sexual thoughts, and trying to "live it" in my mind, since I'm not able to in the real world. It's kind of a violent desire too. Not that the thoughts are violent, and or bad, just quite powerful.

 

I dont kow wtf IM trying to say with this.

 

Needless to say, if you wnt to practice celibate practices and transmute the jing, you have to actively desire it. It's not going to happen by itself.. and you might unconsciously go back to wanting to think about sex.. because hey it feels good to, you get the sensations that feel good and pleasing to.

 

And that was the reason why it was so easy for me before. Now it's been harder to even catch myself before I go off the deep end but...

 

I have this theory. Going by the reuniting.org website.. Marnia talks about in her book that it takes 2 weeks for the body and hormones to normalize after intense orgasmic sexual activity to the point of "satiety". During the period of two weeks you might feel depleted, wanting more and more sex, yet never being able to find lasting fulfillment, and will be numbed only to seek more and more violent orgasms.. basically a vicious cycle. So only once you have gone two weeks without sexual activity or at the very least orgasm, then you're body will begin to normalize.

 

I'd say it takes more than just avoiding orgasm depending on how deep a level you want to normalize. It'll be easier to avoid orgasm after 2 weeks if you just avoid orgasm for two weeks. That might not mean sexual activity, or sexual thoughts, or sexual stimulation, etc. For that you might also need to try as best as you can to avoid sexual stimulation, for two weeks and also sexual thoughts, etc.

 

Depending on how deep a level you might want to go. Because it takes two weeks for the dopamine cycle to reset.

 

So.. if you have avoided orgasm for two weeks, it's easier from then on. If you have also avoided sexual thoughts then it's easier from then on. That's high level.

 

 

I'd say it could take 3 weeks even (21 days) to really set the pattern in stone. You could try avoiding orgasm for two weeks the first two weeks, and then try avoiding sexual activity for the next two weeks, then the sexual thoughts for the following two weeks.

 

I think once you do this then perhaps for the rest of your life as long as you don't fall off the wagon for some reason and jack it up for some.. unknown reason then it'll be easier to control your sexual thoughts. Because once you go back down, you have to start form the "low level" again. You don't want to be in the depleted (jing) state.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Non

[Non]

btw, if you can do the above you can also try with other patterns or habits you want to change. Ever heard the 21 day rule?

 

Well if habits are based on a dopamine cycle just like sex is, then by learning to control your sexual energies you can also learn to control basic energy.

[Astral_Anima]

Well.. when I became really good at the celibacy thing... I could only do it by control. Though it seemed contradictory, I learned to control it by repression although I thought it was control.

 

I was taught, or I learned that sex was bad, and a waste of energy and came to feel disgusted toward sex and I was "choosing" to never have sex for the rest of my life. I thought it wd make me a God, a superhuman, etc. Mostly this mindset was gotten from the book Practice of Brahmacharya by Sivananda. Therefore it gave me great motivation to achieve a good 2 or so months to be free of sex in mind. Unfortunately for some reason I did fall off the wagon, and it led me to the depths I am in again today. Nowadays, I notice myself trying to control it but am unable to...because I feel that my inexperience, or my BODY feels a need to try and "seek thoughts" of sex because I am inexperienced and it's what I "need" to be normal. Or actually that... since Im "never going to be able to have sex for the rest of my life even though I'm still virile, might as well go wanton and think about sex because I'm repressed". So a lot of times I've ended up wasting quite a bit of time thinking of really intense sexual thoughts, and trying to "live it" in my mind, since I'm not able to in the real world. It's kind of a violent desire too. Not that the thoughts are violent, and or bad, just quite powerful.

 

I dont kow wtf IM trying to say with this.

 

Needless to say, if you wnt to practice celibate practices and transmute the jing, you have to actively desire it. It's not going to happen by itself.. and you might unconsciously go back to wanting to think about sex.. because hey it feels good to, you get the sensations that feel good and pleasing to.

 

And that was the reason why it was so easy for me before. Now it's been harder to even catch myself before I go off the deep end but...

 

I have this theory. Going by the reuniting.org website.. Marnia talks about in her book that it takes 2 weeks for the body and hormones to normalize after intense orgasmic sexual activity to the point of "satiety". During the period of two weeks you might feel depleted, wanting more and more sex, yet never being able to find lasting fulfillment, and will be numbed only to seek more and more violent orgasms.. basically a vicious cycle. So only once you have gone two weeks without sexual activity or at the very least orgasm, then you're body will begin to normalize.

 

I'd say it takes more than just avoiding orgasm depending on how deep a level you want to normalize. It'll be easier to avoid orgasm after 2 weeks if you just avoid orgasm for two weeks. That might not mean sexual activity, or sexual thoughts, or sexual stimulation, etc. For that you might also need to try as best as you can to avoid sexual stimulation, for two weeks and also sexual thoughts, etc.

 

Depending on how deep a level you might want to go. Because it takes two weeks for the dopamine cycle to reset.

 

So.. if you have avoided orgasm for two weeks, it's easier from then on. If you have also avoided sexual thoughts then it's easier from then on. That's high level.

 

 

I'd say it could take 3 weeks even (21 days) to really set the pattern in stone. You could try avoiding orgasm for two weeks the first two weeks, and then try avoiding sexual activity for the next two weeks, then the sexual thoughts for the following two weeks.

 

I think once you do this then perhaps for the rest of your life as long as you don't fall off the wagon for some reason and jack it up for some.. unknown reason then it'll be easier to control your sexual thoughts. Because once you go back down, you have to start form the "low level" again. You don't want to be in the depleted (jing) state.

 

btw, if you can do the above you can also try with other patterns or habits you want to change. Ever heard the 21 day rule?

 

Well if habits are based on a dopamine cycle just like sex is, then by learning to control your sexual energies you can also learn to control basic energy.

 

Hey man, I hear ya on the difficulty of celibacy, it takes a real effort to make such a change. Took me about 6 years to get it under control(pretty sure I got it now, lol, not positive) and I have to say the biggest step in "conquering" it was my dietary change, then the rest was a natural evolution; I've "fallen off the wagon" many times. It is powerful, the psychological aspects especially. I know experientially that "regular sex" FOR ME is a waste of time because I doesn't benefit me or the girl I'd share it with because most girls are just trying to fulfill childish fantasies and are slaves to their physical urges (which are a bi-product of unhealthy living). Poor girls as young as 12 and 13 start developing physically the the level of 16-18 and they have these hormonal changes and physical urges and they don't know what to do with them...it's sad really. But i'm getting off topic...

 

But yeah, any real change can be hard to make. For example I'm still in the process of refining my dietary principles. I've "fallen of the wagon" of this for about 4 years but each time I recover and i push further. It's kinda like DragonballZ (lol, wait, just hear me out). The main character starts off so strong, then someone stronger usually comes along and challenges them. Usually the challenger starts stronger and beats the main charcter's ass. But the MC gets back up and pushes harder and get more powerful, then someone new and stronger comes along and the process continues. It's like when you first start off you get to a certain stage (say you've made it 2 weeks) then it's like a whole new ball park, you may fall off. But then you get back up (of course not always immediately, I've had times where i'd be "off the wagon" for months before starting back up again) and you push to that point again, then you push further, maybe this times you make 3 weeks. And you keep pushing and eventually it becomes a part of you, like you said, the "21 day" thing, although I'd say 40. It's customary to follow 40 days fasts and meditation retreats, some even go as far as to say 100 days, but I believe the goal is simply to make whatever you're doing a habit, an unconscious behaviour.

 

And yes this process can be applied to many things to induce change. Truly we are the masters of our body-mind, we can program it to function in whatever way brings us the most satisfaction. Try resisting meat, white sugar, fried foods, hell COOKED foods. They are all in the category of "stimulants". They give an initial "sensation" followed by a depletion of energy. When you really isolate the behaviours that drain energy you'll notice that our whole society is based around these activities. One who attempts to attain "physical liberation" had better move in with the Essenes, or like-minded people, otherwise expect to feel isolated and alone.

 

Although it is my belief that for "mastery" over sexual urges one must not just "avoid" but "resist". It's very easy to indulge wholeheartedly in something and it's easy to avoid it altogether, however it's very difficult to have a taste and then resist. For example When I'm going good on the sex thing, I may watch some porn and try to keep my mind unattached, keep my body from responding. When I get to a point of dietary mastery I may introduce chocolate or high sugar and then not indulge any futher in any of the like. My personal approach to change is to jump in feet first and try to hold out as long as I can, whereas most people prefer to only put their foot in, and slowly adjust. Therefore for me if I "fall" then I lose ALL my self-control and over indulge. So for me the ultimate test is to reach a state of "achievement" then allow a single taste of indulgence and prove that I can resist further after getting a taste. That shit is HARD, VERY "high level", but truly a sign of mastery

 

-Astral

[gendao]

Well, you have to start off with a burning desire for spiritual liberation - like a man with his hair on fire or a drowning man gasping for air. Anything less and you will likely fall off the bandwagon for various other reasons (laziness, boredom, sex drive, etc).

 

But, it gets easier as you go along...

 

Remember, as your jing fills up, your neediness for sex decreases.

When Jing is very strong you can remember your dreams.

When the Qi is full; one does not feel hunger.

When the Shen is full; one does not need sleep.

 

All of this takes a long time to slowly cultivate though...which requires very strong self-discipline and patience...which requires very strong will...which again, requires a burning desire that is stronger than all other desires...

 

You are merely at base camp and it's a looong way up, buddy! If you lack the will (kidney power) and the drive now...then fugheddaboudit! Maybe try again in 10 years..

Edited February 18, 2011 by vortex

[Non]

I guessit also may be easier if you have already had sex, or good sex to be able to let go of it, at least enough to say "been there done that, can let go of it". But when you're like me, a virgin, my primal instinct is to seek without regard for consequence. It tries to get a ahead at any chance at 'sexual experience' even if it's small. It's like my sperms controlling me. my genetic material, ie to "leave a mark" you get me and go wanton and rampant... to ravage.

 

but maybe, just maybe that's the most powerful energy to start with... if you can learn to really put aside those "biological urges".

 

I seem to think this is unique to my condition of sexual inexperience... but maybe it happens to even the experienced. Maybe the the nature of the virile man to feel that way with every new woman that comes along. Novelty I guess.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Non

[Non]

Hey man, I hear ya on the difficulty of celibacy, it takes a real effort to make such a change. Took me about 6 years to get it under control(pretty sure I got it now, lol, not positive) and I have to say the biggest step in "conquering" it was my dietary change, then the rest was a natural evolution; I've "fallen off the wagon" many times. It is powerful, the psychological aspects especially. I know experientially that "regular sex" FOR ME is a waste of time because I doesn't benefit me or the girl I'd share it with because most girls are just trying to fulfill childish fantasies and are slaves to their physical urges (which are a bi-product of unhealthy living). Poor girls as young as 12 and 13 start developing physically the the level of 16-18 and they have these hormonal changes and physical urges and they don't know what to do with them...it's sad really. But i'm getting off topic...

 

But yeah, any real change can be hard to make. For example I'm still in the process of refining my dietary principles. I've "fallen of the wagon" of this for about 4 years but each time I recover and i push further. It's kinda like DragonballZ (lol, wait, just hear me out). The main character starts off so strong, then someone stronger usually comes along and challenges them. Usually the challenger starts stronger and beats the main charcter's ass. But the MC gets back up and pushes harder and get more powerful, then someone new and stronger comes along and the process continues. It's like when you first start off you get to a certain stage (say you've made it 2 weeks) then it's like a whole new ball park, you may fall off. But then you get back up (of course not always immediately, I've had times where i'd be "off the wagon" for months before starting back up again) and you push to that point again, then you push further, maybe this times you make 3 weeks. And you keep pushing and eventually it becomes a part of you, like you said, the "21 day" thing, although I'd say 40. It's customary to follow 40 days fasts and meditation retreats, some even go as far as to say 100 days, but I believe the goal is simply to make whatever you're doing a habit, an unconscious behaviour.

 

And yes this process can be applied to many things to induce change. Truly we are the masters of our body-mind, we can program it to function in whatever way brings us the most satisfaction. Try resisting meat, white sugar, fried foods, hell COOKED foods. They are all in the category of "stimulants". They give an initial "sensation" followed by a depletion of energy. When you really isolate the behaviours that drain energy you'll notice that our whole society is based around these activities. One who attempts to attain "physical liberation" had better move in with the Essenes, or like-minded people, otherwise expect to feel isolated and alone.

 

Although it is my belief that for "mastery" over sexual urges one must not just "avoid" but "resist". It's very easy to indulge wholeheartedly in something and it's easy to avoid it altogether, however it's very difficult to have a taste and then resist. For example When I'm going good on the sex thing, I may watch some porn and try to keep my mind unattached, keep my body from responding. When I get to a point of dietary mastery I may introduce chocolate or high sugar and then not indulge any futher in any of the like. My personal approach to change is to jump in feet first and try to hold out as long as I can, whereas most people prefer to only put their foot in, and slowly adjust. Therefore for me if I "fall" then I lose ALL my self-control and over indulge. So for me the ultimate test is to reach a state of "achievement" then allow a single taste of indulgence and prove that I can resist further after getting a taste. That shit is HARD, VERY "high level", but truly a sign of mastery

 

-Astral

 

 

Exactly, I agree about the whole "resist" thing. That's what I was talking about. I guess there's where the whole "repression" thing comes into the picture. It was better for me when I was resisting rather than avoiding like I'm so trying to now. But I was Actively participating in the resisting before, where I acheived such a high level of control. Nowadays I've just been "avoiding" and truthfully it's been harder because I feel as if I haven't fully agreed with the choice to be celibate. ie, if it comes along I'll try it, or at least try to see if I can do karezza. But hell maybe I really need to just be celibate completely for 100 days before I can even try being "avoidant" and seeing if karezza or delving into tantric sex is an option.

 

As for the diet.. yes the lighter the foods you eat the better it is. Though I wonder if you are eating a low fat raw vegan diet, the low fat aspect might be keeping you from making the hormones your body needs for regular sexual function as well as other functions. Unless you're eating a high calorie diet 80-10-10 requires a pretty low amount of daily fat intake. Also is the consideration of ALA from omega 3 fatty acids which convert to EPA and DHA in the body (moreso in vegans, they produce more of those than meat eaters due to an adaptation response to lowered direct epa/dha intake).

 

I'd also question whether the high fruit low fat diet is optimal. I'd say fruit is best ONLY if you're like a nomadic human, eat wild varieties of fruit (ie non hybrids) because there might be too much sugar content in most common varities, have the enzymes and are free of candida. But being low fat may automatically help if Dr. Graham is right about the fat connection but being so low in fat might compromise the hormone production if you're not getting enough calories, and even a 2000 calories 80-10-10 diet provides very low fat intake which to my knowledge is not really adequate. Even so you must be like a nomadic human or an Athlete and train everyday, or be particularly active.

 

As for sugars... biologoyofkundalini.com points out that sugar intake is linked to sensitivity to pain, or feeling pain. Or rather, emotional pains? I don't know if buddhist monks had a diet so high in sugar. Sugar is not synonymous with carbs Here. You can get sugars from starches but that's not what I'm referring to sugars. See their diet seems to be more veggies and rice, and maybe some legume product for added protein. Not that I suggest unsprouted grains and legumes (even so a large portion of it, and cooked) a good thing but at least it is much lower in simple sugars. Cooking it also dextrinizes the food.

 

I don't know if certain constitutions or blood types or metabolic types might also be a factor in this either. That's why I've not done the whole thing. I've only started reading Gabriel Cousens' books and the Hippocrates LifeForce book by Brian Clement.

 

Maybe sprouted grain can be mixed up with fruit if you're not as active. The good ones though only like spelt, amaranth, teff, oats, maybe barley, quinoa, buckwheat, etc. Also be sure you have enough iodine and seaweed if you're worried about the DHA and EPA. Quinoa, spinach and beets are also the best sources of TMG (trimethylglycine).

 

Anyways yea...It's possible also that as regards spiritual the Gabriel Cousens' form of the raw food diet is best because it focuses moreso on anti-aging which also means cutting on calories. I see a lot of people talking about how the recipes in the book are wayyyyy too high in fat, or don't add up to the ratios put out in Gabriel Cousens' book. If that's the case then I don't know why Gabriel Cousens does not even recommend a diet or macronutrient ratio high in fat. I also don't know if by the ratios he gives he means calorie ratio or moreso general food intake ratio. Ie, 20-25 % fatty food intake as opposed to 20-20% calories from fat to be so exact, etc.

 

Anyways.. I'd like to know your thoughts on this in a PM so it doesn't go off topic.