Daoism has roots in shamanism

[InfinityTruth]

Something new I learned the other day is that daoism, is closely related to shamanism if you go far enough back in it's history.

 

http://archaeology.about.com/od/dterms/g/daoism.htm

http://www.healing-tao.co.uk/ht_Tao_of_the_Shaman.htm

http://base.china-europa-forum.net/rsc/docs/ws11eng.pdf

http://www.csuchico.edu/~cheinz/syllabi/fall99/hundoble/

 

My question is how many other religions/belief systems were also influenced by one of the most ancient practices?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Probably..... most if not all.

 

People discover practice methods...

 

These methods are repeated by others with some success...

 

They get codified and are passed on from person to person, even if the subsequent people experience less, if any, success than previous generations....

 

These codes become dogmas that are not questioned or modified because of their extensive tradition, and are open to be warped and abused, even if they do work for a select few, who may be similar to the creators of the original methods.

 

At least, that's how I see it in a broad sense.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Gerard]

And shamanism draws its knowledge from the spirit world (Yin side of reality); hence, our ancestors inherited that knowledge from beings living in those realms.

[ben]

[Marblehead]

And then a person like Marblehead comes along and attempts to strip away all the BS in order to get back to the roots of the philosophy. Hehehe.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Marblehead

[2netis]

Thanks Infinity Truth for the links to the shamanic roots of Taoism. Very interesting.

 

My 2 cents while wandering about....harmless, I hope......

 

I've had a Chan/Zen/Non-Dual practice for several decades now. I always wondered what to do with this physical body - mainstream Buddhism does not have many suggestions at first except to: "Get over it - it is not what you are." I eventually decided to look into Buddhist and Taoist Qigong because for over 26 years I kept bumping into this body and it just seemed to want to be included in the program. So I got some qigong DVDs and looked up one of the local Taoist teachers. Right away I was impressed with the extent of trance induction suggested in order to just first feel the chi. I was immediately reminded of Shamanic practices - and really intrigued now.

 

I've studied NLP under Bandler and Grinder, hypnosis, Ericksonian methods and I know what a trance is - light or deep - and I have witnessed ("caused") a few remarkable things to happen for another's health. And yet, all these years I sat on my meditation cushion tediously exposing all the karmic roots of the limiting hypnotic trance that is culture, language, and the default paradigm. Qigong was such a turnaround from that and I feel very fortunate to be able to still listen to the trance, to recognize it, when desired and to be independent of any kind of conditioning while still deeply hearing the body/universe too.

 

----NLP is an extremely powerful set of understandings of the way society and culture is a massive trance inducing program. It should be taught beginning in grade school as protection against all manner of social ills - up to and including political tyrants and "Final Solutions." of any kind or magnitude. Unfortunately, once learned, it is just as easy to manipulate people as it is to recognize the manipulation. Shamanic trance has quite a lot in common with the way that NLP works. ----

 

I'm finding that Qigong is deeply shamanic without a doubt. The recent Chinese Govt has not been exactly friendly to shamanism. So it seems to me that it has found its natural way back into society as "Medical Qigong" and it still has all the shamanic aspects - as they work reasonably well regardless of the hats, horns and drums thought necessary as accessories to the trance. And so too, it comes to the US acceptably dressed as medical qigong alongside some other acceptable names for it. Hopefully it can continue to flower in the west with helpful accessories - beyond just the body and 6 senses - and in a culturally recognizable way. I know I'm looking forward to learning much more about this shamanic root aspect Qigong out the open light. I sense that if in the open light, there will be a more appropriate level of awareness when newcomers engage a teacher and teachers will hopefully be expected to speak about this aspect of the practices. Freedom - Liberation is what is desired here and trance induced without disclosure is only just more imprisonment of the same kind that every society offers. Just speaking about it does not diminish its potency and surely will thin out the charlatans and outright liars. Of course there is science. But science has never ever been separated from it's ground, consciousness, regardless of what the cultural trance insists. Western "medicine" is certainly a science grounded in consciousness and, to me, is about 50% shamanic trance as well.

 

"Medical" Qigong, "Religious" Qigong, Shamanism, Buddhism or Taoism....not getting forever entranced by the words is real freedom.

 

"The reason for a fish-trap is the fish. When the fish is caught the trap may be ignored. The reason for the rabbit snare is the rabbit. When the rabbit is caught the snare may be ignored. The reason for language is an idea to be expressed. When the idea is expressed, the language may be ignored. But where shall I find a man to ignore language, with whom I may be able to converse?"

 

~ Zhuangzi

 

I like this (Chan/Taoist Buddhist) story too -

 

When Ananda asked Mahakasyapa what the Buddha's transmission was, he answered, "Go and take the banner at the gate down!" Ananda was awakened. It was a tradition to have a banner outside the temple where the Buddha taught. Same thing today in many places. To take the banner down meant to recognize that we actually live, hear, express within and from the place of no words - from the Tao. Resisting this is deluded and often painful. Additionally, it meant the teaching of Heart/Mind is handed down successively by direct original mind-to-original mind transmission. Certificates are meaningless. Chan Master Linji called any such certificates: "Hitching posts for donkeys." There is not one word that may describe the Tao. There are quite a few different ways to point to it though and always including the very words that will eventually be discarded. In this context, the trick is described as not believing, for one moment, what you think you know.

 

UhOhhhh, quite a ramble.....

 

Best to you.

[Marblehead]

Yes, nice bit of rambling.

 

I like this:

 

Certificates are meaningless. Chan Master Linji called any such certificates: "Hitching posts for donkeys."

 

And donkeys are related to jackasses. I have seen a few certified jackasses in my days.

[manitou]

When Ananda asked Mahakasyapa what the Buddha's transmission was, he answered, "Go and take the banner at the gate down!"

 

 

This is wonderful, and so succinct. This is to leave the illusion of self-identity behind, and get to the essence underneath. The Oneness of us all, now and then.

 

I think everything has its roots in shamanism, because wherever we ancient humans and tribes sprang from, we would all have had the same moment of awe over the sun riding across the sky each day, the moon riding across the sky each night. It would have been no other way. The tribes would have minor differences over how to respond to natural weather events, etc. The minor differences would evolve and evolve and sooner or later ceremonies would crystallize - each tribe different because they reacted to the same things slightly differently at the beginning.

 

If we buy this Tao stuff at all, that we can get back to the original One, then these tribes are merely us in a less sophisticated time. We are them. We are One. We are all the same Entity, both forward and backward in time, in addition to Now.

 

New age shamans triangulate into another person's soul to assist in healing; specifically to bend the light or change an imprint from long ago. This directly aligns with bending the light in a wu-wei sense. They are identical, as far as I can see. And I fully agree that all paths do merge together, if followed to the point where the inner journey converges with the One.

[InfinityTruth]

 

1. Certificates are meaningless. 2. not believing, for one moment, what you think you know.

 

 

 

1. I agree 100%. So are trophies because without the memory of how you got the trophy the trophy is actually meaningless. The only thing you really need is the memory. Everyone is taught early on that things outside of themselves give meaning to their experiences. But its the experience that gave it the meaning not the object. A trophy, certificate is only a symbol of the experience. Even a high school diploma is meaningless.

 

Signs and symbols rule our world.

 

In america we're taught that the bill of rights protects us and that we're "Free". But what is a piece of paper with words on it going to do to protect us? If someone is going to strip us of our rights it won't be the paper that is going to protect us. It will be those fighting for their freedom (not for their country but their freedom literally). Here is an example of how we are NOT as free as we think -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE76LQwT6qA&feature=player_embedded

 

Granted they probably used the excuse that he was "unruly" and "a danger to the public." Notice how they cut him off just as he starts talking about secret societies. As long as we give them permission to take away our freedoms for "safety" we're going to be in BIG trouble. Look at what they're already allowed to do at airports in the name of "safety."

 

I went off on a tangent here and I'm really not trying to come off like a nutbar. But just look at that video from an unbiased viewpoint. Then look at all the symbolism they throw into tv and ask why? I was watching a kids cartoon today (codename: kids next door) and they were talking about how you had the choice between taking the red lollipop and the blue lollipop(they talked about how the blue lollipop will help you see through all the BS in this society and the red would make you ignorant). Which I right away recognized the symbolism for the red pill and the blue pill. I couldnt remember which one was the awakening pill and which one was the sleeping pull but they were telling you to take the blue lollipop. I later googled it to find out that the blue pill is the sleeping pill. And they were encouraging you to take the sleeping pill or the blue lollipop. Why the fuck do they encourage this?! This is seriously an episode. I'm not kidding I just saw it today lol.

 

2. I like this saying. I used to have a theory when I was a little kid. At the time I didn't think of it like this though. But it seemed like I was unlucky so whatever I would think on a decision I would always do the opposite of what I thought and come out right. It was pretty crazy because 9x out of 10 while practicing this the opposite choice got it right. Lol.

[Marblehead]

2. I like this saying. I used to have a theory when I was a little kid. At the time I didn't think of it like this though. But it seemed like I was unlucky so whatever I would think on a decision I would always do the opposite of what I thought and come out right. It was pretty crazy because 9x out of 10 while practicing this the opposite choice got it right. Lol.

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I know about using faulty logic.

[2netis]

 

 

I think everything has its roots in shamanism, because wherever we ancient humans and tribes sprang from, we would all have had the same moment of awe over the sun riding across the sky each day, the moon riding across the sky each night. It would have been no other way. The tribes would have minor differences over how to respond to natural weather events, etc. The minor differences would evolve and evolve and sooner or later ceremonies would crystallize - each tribe different because they reacted to the same things slightly differently at the beginning.

 

If we buy this Tao stuff at all, that we can get back to the original One, then these tribes are merely us in a less sophisticated time. We are them. We are One. We are all the same Entity, both forward and backward in time, in addition to Now.

 

New age shamans triangulate into another person's soul to assist in healing; specifically to bend the light or change an imprint from long ago. This directly aligns with bending the light in a wu-wei sense. They are identical, as far as I can see. And I fully agree that all paths do merge together, if followed to the point where the inner journey converges with the One.

 

Really enjoyed all your thoughts here...thanks very much!

[2netis]

 

Signs and symbols rule our world.

 

In america we're taught that the bill of rights protects us and that we're "Free".

 

I appreciate your thoughts here for sure. And I agree that we are not ever "free" until the mind is freed from it's white knuckle conceptual grip on whatever symbol or symbolic phrase it has latched onto. I find that the map is never, ever the territory no matter how compelling it first seems. Political (and spiritual) slogans are always a Heads-Up for a moment of mindfulness. It also seems to me that any spiritual slogan that does not, sooner or later, deconstruct itself into mindfulness is most likely just another trap.

 

Take care.

Edited February 19, 2011 by 2netis