Moral character of Qi

[exorcist_1699]

Man is full of sins and imperfections, it is only by initializing and purifying our qi , can we make ourselves divine .

 

" But, why not done by purifying our spirit as most religions ask ?" people may ask .

 

I have to say that it is the wit of Taoism that, different from other religions , it finds the solution from the opposite side of our mind , ie, lower dantian where yang-qi arise, to counteract our trivial , evil spirit, and upgrade it rather than relying on the most-likely fruitless work in the arena of spirit . In fact, how can you rely on something itself trivial and evil, to cure itself ?

 

In our "post-heavenly" status, after the period of adolescence, while Yang is receding , Yin is becoming the dominating " evil" force( in fact, most parents know that adolescence is a period full of dangers to their children ) , on which if we think that we can rely to change us into some kind of god or immortal, we are too naive . Conversely, it is by accumulating and purifying our qi, and through it sublimates our spirit that we can get our metamorphosis ( all the secret about the relation between the "Kan" trigram and "Li" trigram, in fact, lies here..)

 

To the Chinese, as their Confucian heritage always talks about the righteous qi (正氣), not just in humans, but existing in the cosmos, there is no difficulty for them to understand the moral character of qi besides its medical character. Yet to the westerners, the moral character of qi is a little difficult to grasp, let alone its qualitative jump from something "energetic" to something universal and "kind "...

Edited February 18, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Man is full sins and imperfections, it is only by relying on initializing and purifying our qi , can we make ourselves perfect.

 

 

Interesting. I accept this with limitations because I do believe that our qi (personal Chi) is equal to our spirit. It is that aspect of us that is the closest to the pure energy of Tao.

 

So yes, if we keep our qi (spirit) pure then our virtue will be much closer to the Virtue of Tao.

[manitou]

"I have to say that it is the wit of Taoism that, different from other religions , it finds the solution from the opposite side of our mind , ie, lower dantian where yang-qi arise, to counteract our trivial , evil spirit, and upgrade it rather than relying on the most-likely fruitless work in the arena of spirit . In fact, how can you rely on something itself trivial and evil, to cure itself ?

 

I'm so glad you mentioned this. I've wondered what method Taoists uses to eliminate the unwanted obstacles from our character. I agree, it is only through purifying our innards that we can get to the place we seek, so that the vision becomes clear. Obstacles distort our view; we think we're seeing clearly, but we're not.

 

Going to the opposite is a sure way to understand most anything, I've found. It's a fast triangulation. Wonderful post!

Edited February 18, 2011 by manitou

[ralis]

It amazes me how humans anthropomorphise the universal forces. The life force is amoral.

[Astral_Anima]

It amazes me how humans anthropomorphise the universal forces. The life force is amoral.

 

Very good Padawan, you'll make a fine Jedi

[hyok]

virtue matters in all things.

[ralis]

virtue matters in all things.

 

Why not give a true translation of virtue. I don't believe it is a Western point of view.

[hyok]

Why not give a true translation of virtue. I don't believe it is a Western point of view.

 

Every time I've done something non-virtuous, I've known it the second after. I've felt in the center of my being; that sense of feeling down, a nervousness that I'd just done something I'm not proud of. I think it's inherently within us to know the difference for ourselves, but not necessarily for others. Because of this, I think we should not look to others to define what is virtuous for ourselves. We ourselves know, as does the Life Force that cradles the path.

Edited February 18, 2011 by hyok

[Astral_Anima]

Every time I've done something non-virtuous, I've known it the second after. I've felt in the center of my being; that sense of feeling down, a nervousness that I'd just done something I'm not proud of. I think it's inherently within us to know the difference for ourselves, but not necessarily for others. Because of this, I think we should not look to others to define what is virtuous for ourselves. We ourselves know, as does the Life Force that cradles the path.

 

This sounds more like deeply held beliefs. For example most boys are taught that masturbation is 'shameful' or "wrong" so thus when they do it they get the same inital reaction. But that doesn't mean something isn't "virtuous". "Virtue" (as i understand it) is based upon the (objective) LAWS of the universe. You do virtuous things because they bring certain positive results. For example Thanking people for things. In a research on water Dr Emoto brought forth the idea that thought forms could effect the molecular structure of water and since we are 70% water that thought forms can be a major factor to health and well-being. Thus it would be considered "virtuous" because it brings about universal harmony and happiness, not because it "feels right". Killing has "felt right" to many people but we all know that it's not virtuous to do so.

 

 

Just my thoughts

-Astral

Edited February 18, 2011 by Astral_Anima

[whynaut]

I think we need to consider the yinyang symbol. The symbol is not intrinsically Daoist, but rather it came from I-Ching (which was closer to a science than it is a religion). A Confuciust would look at the yinyang symbol and see the two opposites in balance; a place for everything and everything in its place. A Daoist, however, looks at the yinyang symbol and realizes that it all is one circle.

 

By looking at the opposites of things we can possibly see that they are not opposites at all. Big and small are both measures of length, hate and love are both strong attracting emotions, even the literal translations of "yin" and "yang" are the shaded and lit sides of the same mountain.

 

The virtue in Daoism, I think, is to maintain this balance of ideals. However the sin (and I use the term loosley) is not the fear of going to extremes of either ideal, but in thinking that these extremes exist at all.

 

Though I personally don't know how to purify my qi (though I wouldn't mind a lesson), I can imagine the idea is not to move or shape one's qi in any particular way, but to let it disseminate in all directions. Like an ice sculpture melting and becoming a part of the lake it sits in.

[manitou]

I think we have trouble with the concept of virtue (te) if we are still in a state of rebellion.

 

If this is the case, the obstacles are easily remedied by a little inner work. The rebel does not see from a point of clarity; he is seeing from merely a ledge that he thinks is the bottom.

 

Te, virtue, has nothing to do with good and bad. It has more to do with clarity and obstruction. If the idea of virtue still has a good or bad connotation within, then maybe its time for introspection.

[Birch]

I must be a rebel. For me "morality" is what gets served up when you forget how to be human.

Moralizations are IMO a poor substitute for just knowing when something is "the right thing".

I've also seen it applied as an avoidance of the need to understand a situation or someone else.

 

I see far too many people attempting to find and apply formulaic stuff like "morality" and to be frank, it irritates me even more than people who just spontaneously act out of their own non-introspected egoism.

 

But I suppose there's nothing better than feeling righteous, right?

It's an easy win when everyone else is wrong and religion will endorse you all the way:-)

 

No offense intended to anyone:-)

[zerostao]

i tend to agree with ralis in that qi is nuetral. neither good or bad.

if that is what ralis was saying? but one could have good qi or bad qi but not in a moral way.

 

i dont think qi= spirit. isnt shen closer to= spirit?

 

imo religion is man made and not the same as spiritual.

[Jetsun]

Every time I've done something non-virtuous, I've known it the second after. I've felt in the center of my being; that sense of feeling down, a nervousness that I'd just done something I'm not proud of. I think it's inherently within us to know the difference for ourselves, but not necessarily for others. Because of this, I think we should not look to others to define what is virtuous for ourselves. We ourselves know, as does the Life Force that cradles the path.

 

How can you be sure that feeling isn't a programme installed in you by your parents or by society as a means to control you? You are likely to get those sorts of feelings of being not proud and nervous when you do something to break free of your conditioning so it may feel like a non virtuous act to your conditioned ego and yet it could be almost holy thing to do to break those bonds despite the negative emotions associated with it.

[ralis]

i tend to agree with ralis in that qi is nuetral. neither good or bad.

if that is what ralis was saying? but one could have good qi or bad qi but not in a moral way.

 

i dont think qi= spirit. isnt shen closer to= spirit?

 

imo religion is man made and not the same as spiritual.

 

That is what I meant. Humans have been projecting all sorts of ideology onto cosmos.

[Aaron]

That is what I meant. Humans have been projecting all sorts of ideology onto cosmos.

 

Qi isn't neutral either. It's just Qi. The concept of morality and virtue are human constructs, they aren't a part of nature or Tao. Right and wrong, sin and godliness, are all measure by which we value actions, in order to discourage or encourage those actions.

 

I think what you're confusing is Qi and Te, which are two different things. Some people tend to believe that Te is Qi, but in my own experience Te is the potential for action from Tao and Qi is the underlying energy that permeates everything. Qi is not Tao, nor is it Te, but it arises from both.

 

Te is not achieved by living a virtuous life, but rather by returning to your original nature and allowing your actions to be in accord with the world around you.

 

Aaron

Edited February 19, 2011 by Twinner

[exorcist_1699]

 

 

I'm so glad you mentioned this. I've wondered what method Taoists uses to eliminate the unwanted obstacles from our character. I agree, it is only through purifying our innards that we can get to the place we seek, so that the vision becomes clear. Obstacles distort our view; we think we're seeing clearly, but we're not.

 

Going to the opposite is a sure way to understand most anything, I've found. It's a fast triangulation. Wonderful post!

 

I have to say that Tao is the entity and Te its natural expression. Without Tao, Te is groundless. Without Te , Tao can't be seen by people in the society or nature ,let alone being understand by them.

 

But Te , in our society , can only be seen only after some virtuous actions are taken , some kinds of external expressions are seen . People have to take some actions to help others, provide some convenience to others , or not do anything to hurt others so as to show their virtues ; Yet when they do such good things , according to Taoist view, they should not consider any things like because there is a God from Heaven looking at me , or thinking of avoiding kama, or trying to gain some reputation..etc ; any deliberate action with some utilitarian consideration can't be claimed as Te for any unnatural action and idea distort the essential relation that Te is a just the natural expressions of Tao . In fact, a virtuous action that expects some paying back , even it is something just psychological , can't be viewed as a virtue , let alone hypocrisy in its manifold forms .

 

Without yang- qi , which is the crucial life force that we live on yet hidden deeply inside us , our mind is always in a status of restless, our breathing fluctuating , our senses distracted and entangled by fascinating things around us , our drive always towards sex... ., doing virtuous things therefore seems unlikely .

 

In addition, the rise of yang-qi is always accompanied by our mind being lifted to a new, high plane,which naturally leads us to take virtuous actions in direct and unartificial way.

[manitou]

Another way to look at Te is that which describes the Sage. How did he get to be the way he is? Cautious, like a man crossing a wintry stream. Self-effacing. Uncarved wood. He didn't get this way through ego. He got this way through going in and becoming self realized.

 

The Sage is the template for attitude, apparently.

 

It couldn't be further from religion. It is the realization that we are human and as such, we grow up with a bunch of neuroses. In order to achieve clarity and See, we have to do it from a place of relaxed neuroses, or at least have command over our neuroses so they don't get in the way of the internal telescope. Walking like this over a long period of time will create a being who is self-examined, free of ego entanglements, and capable of going through life with simplicity.

[Marblehead]

I must be a rebel. For me "morality" is what gets served up when you forget how to be human.

Moralizations are IMO a poor substitute for just knowing when something is "the right thing".

 

This is important, I think.

[Marblehead]

i dont think qi= spirit. isnt shen closer to= spirit?

 

I fully accept any disagreements on this. My opinion on this has no support I can offer.

[Marblehead]

Qi isn't neutral either. It's just Qi. The concept of morality and virtue are human constructs, they aren't a part of nature or Tao. Right and wrong, sin and godliness, are all measure by which we value actions, in order to discourage or encourage those actions.

 

I think what you're confusing is Qi and Te, which are two different things. Some people tend to believe that Te is Qi, but in my own experience Te is the potential for action from Tao and Qi is the underlying energy that permeates everything. Qi is not Tao, nor is it Te, but it arises from both.

 

Te is not achieved by living a virtuous life, but rather by returning to your original nature and allowing your actions to be in accord with the world around you.

 

Aaron

 

I think that this is an excellent post so I am simply repeating it.

[Birch]

It couldn't be further from religion. It is the realization that we are human and as such, we grow up with a bunch of neuroses.

 

I don't buy the human=neuroses. IMO that's just yet another attempt at separation and evasion of personal responsability (and, incidentally, the power that goes with.) "It weren't me officer, it were me neuroses acting out again".

 

For me. the "uncarved block" is the reality of a human being who is no longer pretending (or to be kinder, has "realized") that they "have" this "quality" and that "fault" and this "neuroses" and that "issue" and this "blockage" and that "character defect".

 

Is it so hard to admit that one can sometimes be an a44hole and sometimes be kind and sometimes only do what one wants to others' detriment? And also be kind and loving and compassionate, ye know "whole"?

 

Further, IMO and small experience the "ego" equates with exactly the type of false self that is exhorting itself all the time to be other than it really is (paradoxically in order to avoid harm to self, but it does a really bad job because it's always reading yesterday's newspapers).

 

My opinion of Te is that it is the "properties" of the true self. Exercising Te in the world is the natural unfolding of one's true "properties" as human. I would guess that a cat has "cat Te" and a horse "horse Te".

[manitou]

I don't buy the human=neuroses. IMO that's just yet another attempt at separation and evasion of personal responsability (and, incidentally, the power that goes with.) "It weren't me officer, it were me neuroses acting out again".

 

For me. the "uncarved block" is the reality of a human being who is no longer pretending (or to be kinder, has "realized") that they "have" this "quality" and that "fault" and this "neuroses" and that "issue" and this "blockage" and that "character defect".

 

Is it so hard to admit that one can sometimes be an a44hole and sometimes be kind and sometimes only do what one wants to others' detriment? And also be kind and loving and compassionate, ye know "whole"?

 

Further, IMO and small experience the "ego" equates with exactly the type of false self that is exhorting itself all the time to be other than it really is (paradoxically in order to avoid harm to self, but it does a really bad job because it's always reading yesterday's newspapers).

 

My opinion of Te is that it is the "properties" of the true self. Exercising Te in the world is the natural unfolding of one's true "properties" as human. I would guess that a cat has "cat Te" and a horse "horse Te".

 

 

Lotsa karma.

[Birch]

Lotsa karma.

 

What do you mean?

[manitou]

What do you mean?

 

I guess the only way I mean it is my own experience. If I allow my less than desirable characteristics have full sway, the karma created is magnificent. But then as a recovering alkie, my guess is that I had more negative bundles of neurotic responses than most.

 

By being aware of my less than desirable qualities, I try to work on them daily, in each and every situation. I know they're there, I don't let them run freely. As time goes on and on and a certain degree of internal order is achieved, Mr. Castaneda would have us understand the concept of impeccability of spirit and continuing to maintain vigilance over our character. I guess it's a warrior thing. I think it's also a sage thing. The sage could not have achieved what is described in the TTC without reverting to his original nature, i.e. working through all the illusions of character.

 

This is not to say that anybody can actually achieve impeccability of spirit, where our jealousies, our selfishnesses, do not arise. But to put our feet on the path and be willing for those neuroses to be lessened by willful attempts is a thing of desirability, to my way of thinking.

 

I've just got too much wrong with me to run around totally unchecked, lol.