If you were immortal

[Birch]

In exchange for an "on topic" response to the question i have one for you Everything.

If I was immortal, well I don't know what I'd do because as I've already stated, "i" am not but i am.

So i have to conclude that i would do exactly what i'm doing:-)

 

So what do you mean by?

"Challenging men is deeper then you know."

I've heard that before. It felt mildly threatening the first time I read it. But I figure rather than react, I get an opportunity to understand:-)

[Mal]

Where a man's edge is located is less important than whether he is

actually living his edge in truth, rather than being lazy or deluded.

 

I agree, and I'm aware of David Deida concepts as explained in The Way of the Superior Man

 

Yet I maintain

is there absolutely nothing that you would do diffrently if you could not die?

 

No.

 

Except for game playing, like jumping off cliffs, catching bullets with your teeth etc there should not be any difference between how a life is lived dependent on (im)mortality as the distinction is functionally irrelevant.

 

eg. Lets say a genie suddenly appeared and granted a person immortality and that person changed their lifestyle. Then lets say a year later the genie comes back with, "My mistake you are not immortal anymore.... actually you never were so you are just a year closer to dying. Have a nice day!" Because of that should the person change their lifestyle again? What has actually changed? I would say there are some faulty assumptions causing poor choices.

 

In mortality discussions I often enjoy contemplating heart spoon although it's long and SCARY so Mal hates reading it

 

Ah the hurt!

Kind Lama, look to this pitiful one—

How I behave and how I’ve cheated myself my entire life.

Please, look upon this mindless one with compassion.

 

The essential advice to give yourself—Heart-Spoon—

Keep it deep within your heart.

Don’t be distracted; don’t be distracted!

Reflect upon the state of your life from the essential drop at your heart.

 

Since beginningless cyclic existence, which hasn’t ended up to now,

Though you’ve experienced countless cycles of rebirths—

Just so many variations on happiness and pain—

You’ve achieved not the slightest of benefit from them.

 

And though at present you’ve attained leisure and fortune so difficult to find,

Always till now, they’ve finished and been lost, have been empty and without meaning.

Now, if you care about yourself,

The time has come to practice the essence of future happiness— virtuous actions.

 

You appear so capable, smart, and clever, but you’re a fool

As long as you cling to the child’s play of the appearances of this life.

Suddenly you’re overwhelmed by the fearful Lord of Death

And, without hope or means to endure, there’s nothing you can do.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Because you think, “I’m not going to die for some time, I’m not going to die for some time,”

While you’re distracted by the never-ending activities of this life,

Suddenly the fearful Lord of Death arrives,

Announcing, “Now it’s time to die.”

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though you make arrangements, saying “tomorrow” and “tomorrow,”

Just then, suddenly, you have to go.

— This is going to happen to you!

And without choice, leaving behind in disarray

Your left-off work, left food and drink, you have to depart.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

There’s no time other than today to spread [your bedding] and go off to sleep;

Upon your last bed you fall like an old tree,

And others, unable to turn you with their [lily]-soft hands,

Tug at your clothes and blanket.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Even if you completely wrap [your body] in last under and outer clothes,

Still you have no freedom to wear them other than just today,

And when [that body] becomes as rigid as earth and stone,

You behold for the first time your own corpse.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though you struggle to speak your last words,

Your will and expressions of sorrow,

Pitifully your tongue dries up, and you can’t make yourself clear—

An intense sadness overwhelms you.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though others put your final food, holy substances, and relics

With a trickle of water into your mouth,

You’re unable to swallow even a single drop,

And it overflows from the corpse’s mouth.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though surrounded by a circle of close relatives, heart-friends, and those near to your heart,

And even though they’re loving and distressed at the ending of your being together,

While crying and clinging,

Just then, you have to separate forever.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though you [experience] horrific hallucinations like a turbulence of waves

And are overcome by unbearable, excruciating pain,

Pitiful though you may be, there’s nothing to be done;

The appearances of this life are setting [like the sun].

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though with unbearable compassion your lama and vajra-friends

Plead in your ear for a critical virtuous thought to arise,

And even though they do so with loving minds,

There’s no hope; it’s unthinkable.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

With an [expelled rasping] sound, “sor…sor…,” [at the time of death]

The movement of your breath builds faster and faster,

Then breaks like the string of a violin

And the end of your life has come to its close.

—This is going to happen to you!

 

There’ll come a time when your cherished and sadly lost lovely body

Is called “corpse”—disgusting and rotten,

And a time when your body, which can’t bear even rough bedding and mattress,

Is laid out on bare ground.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

There’ll come a time when your body, which can’t bear even a thorn,

Is chopped to pieces and [from the bone] its flesh is torn,

And a time when your body, which can’t stand even fleas and lice,

Is devoured by birds and dogs till nothing’s left.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

Though you [go to so much trouble blowing] “pur…pur…,” in dressing your body in the finest of clothes,

There’ll come a time when that body is placed within a burning house,

And your body, which can’t tolerate even the fire of [a glowing stick of] incense,

Must be burned in the midst of a fiery conflagration.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

There’ll come a time when, entering into roaring flames, all your flesh and bones are burned

And [reduced to] a pile of ash;

Or a time when your body, which can’t bear even heavy cloth,

Is wedged tight in a hole in the ground.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

There’ll come a time of the announcing, “the deceased, _______, him- or herself,”

At the beginning and end of your sweet name.

— This is going to happen to you!

And a time when the area is filled with the sobbing sounds

Of your affectionate, close companions and circle of servants.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

There’ll come a time when your clothes, hats, possessions, and livestock will be divided up

With nothing left in the four directions and corners,

And there’ll come a time when, in total despair, alone,

You reach the passage to the intermediate state.

— This is going to happen to you!

 

The terrors of the four fearful enemies descending upon you are going to come:

The appearance of being trapped under a mountain of packed rock and rubble,

And buried beneath a furious avalanche of earth— what to do?

The appearance of being set adrift on the surface of a vast sea

And carried away by violent, swirling waves—what to do?

The experience of your heart and ears being split open

By the sizzling and crackling sounds of a fiery conflagration— what to do?

The fearful experience of being enveloped and swept away

By the swirling dark winds of the end of an eon— what to do?

 

When you’re driven by the powerful red winds of karma

And swallowed up by a terrifying darkness—what to do?

 

When you’re bound with a lasso by the messengers of Yama

And, in total despair, are led away—what to do?

 

When you’re tortured in so many detestable ways

By ox- and scorpion-headed karmic agents—what to do?

 

When you’re before the Yama king, the Lord of Death,

As he weighs up the whites and blacks—your virtuous and non-virtuous actions—what to do?

 

When Yama exposes your lie of having spent

Your human life in attachment, hatred, and deceit— what to do?

 

When at Yama’s court the punishment that is the ripening effect

Of your negative actions [is meted out]—what to do?

 

When your naked body is stretched out on the glowing red-hot iron

ground in the fires of hell—what to do?

 

Though your body is cut to pieces by a rain of weapons,

Still you must experience it without dying—what to do?

 

Though you’re cooked in molten iron until your flesh falls away and your bones disintegrate,

Still you must experience it without dying—what to do?

 

Though your body and fire burn inseparably,

Still you must experience it without dying—what to do?

 

When your body is pierced by a freezing cold wind

And cracks into a hundred thousand pieces—what to do?

 

Having fallen into the miserable state of a hungry ghost with its hunger and thirst,

You have to starve for many years—what to do?

 

When you’ve become one of those stupid, dumb, unfortunate animals

That eat each other alive—what to do?

 

When the unbearable sufferings of the evil-gone realms

Have actually befallen you—what to do?

 

Now! Don’t be distracted! [With the sounds of hurrying] “la…ur…la…ur…,”

Right this moment is the time to steel your will.

 

It’s not only time—it’s almost too late.

Right now! Right now! “La…ur…la…ur…,” [apply yourself with] great force!

 

Holy precept of the lama, kind father;

Heart of the authoritative scriptures of the Victorious Losang;

Practice of the pure path of complete sutra and tantra;

It’s time to place real experience upon your mindstream.

 

Who’s the faster:

Yama, the Lord of Death,

Or you in your practice of realizing the essence of your eternal dream—

The welfare of both yourself and others—as much as you can each day?

Unifying the three doors [of your body, speech, and mind],

Put the whole of your effort into your practice.

 

and thank you Kate I'm also enjoying this discussion.

 

I am actually confused that you clever guys did not get it yet

I'm sure that understanding will come to all in the fullness of time

_/\_

[Everything]

In exchange for an "on topic" response to the question i have one for you Everything.

If I was immortal, well I don't know what I'd do because as I've already stated, "i" am not but i am.

So i have to conclude that i would do exactly what i'm doing:-)

 

So what do you mean by?

"Challenging men is deeper then you know."

I've heard that before. It felt mildly threatening the first time I read it. But I figure rather than react, I get an opportunity to understand:-)

You would be doing something alright...

 

Challenging men is as deep for women as accepting a challenge from a woman is for men. It is sexy and attractive, thats all I'm going to say about that. You learn to conquer this part of yourself and harmonize with the way if it relates to you. I just assumed it might be a relevant respond to your video's. Did not accuse you of anything. Thought I mention it, don't worry your mind about it!

[Everything]

Except for game playing, like jumping off cliffs, catching bullets with your teeth etc there should not be any difference between how a life is lived dependent on (im)mortality as the distinction is functionally irrelevant.

 

eg. Lets say a genie suddenly appeared and granted a person immortality and that person changed their lifestyle. Then lets say a year later the genie comes back with, "My mistake you are not immortal anymore.... actually you never were so you are just a year closer to dying. Have a nice day!" Because of that should the person change their lifestyle again? What has actually changed? I would say there are some faulty assumptions causing poor choices.

Man, you guys are scary...

 

I should have made a title like "If you were a vampire"

 

Thanks for the respond, though. You would not use these powers more "responsibly"? Like creating a better world for the people. Perhaps in batman terms, become the villain in order to create a balance in contrast to the excessive police forces. Or you would not dedicate your infinite life to the science of nature to find renewable energy or something? Seeking to create golden ages. You would simply catch bullets with your teeth and jump off cliffs? I means thats kinda painfull

 

I admire your edge, but I also distrust it to some degree. My edge would be going out to steal an apple at the supermarket. And I would expand my edge from that place of authenticity towards myself. But my ultimate goal is not my edge, thus it is irrelevant to me. Why don't I steal an apple from the supermarket now? Because it would lead to jail, and a series of bad habbits that is destructive for my life and that of others. With immortality, I know that I shall require the ability to steal at some point in my eternal life. Do you see where I'm getting with this?

 

Your turn!

Edited March 4, 2011 by Everything

[Mal]

[Birch]

Is there a sudden confusion between "immortality" and "not getting caught"???

Of course, if I never got caught I might do all kinds of crazy stuff.

[doc benway]

Why is this so complicated?

I am writing this.

[Cat Pillar]

Is there a sudden confusion between "immortality" and "not getting caught"???

Of course, if I never got caught I might do all kinds of crazy stuff.

 

If you're immortal, it doesn't matter if you get caught. You can just wait out the consequences!

[Everything]

A little bit, but I'm still confused.

With immortality we can draw from infinite experiences infinitely. When time doesn't play a factor, a fear of stealing is simply a set back to a series of more valuable experiences. For whatever goal you wish to achieve requires certain skills. What I mean with that is that without an immortal life, stealing an apple would be a waste of time, because time is limited and we should not waste it unless we are certain that stealing an apple is the best thing to do in that moment, which I doubt. For immortals, every experience is equally valuable. That is why, if you understand the concept, your actions would inevitable become 100% honest and authentic.

 

Now lets say that everyone of us can become "like an immortal" even in his mortal life. Simply curious what people would do the moment they would be granted immortality, while they were reading this. Even if that means making a cup of coffee to contemplate on your newly gained immortality. I say I steal apples because there is a market nearby here and thats simply what I would do. I don't need any reason or explanation for my own behaviour, because as I said: "every experience is equally valuable for an immortal." This may not be felt at first, but certainly known by the logical mind. That is why the logical mind no longer plays any factor in my concept of the immortality. It can no longer distinguish values between certain events or judge them trough abstraction. You would be simply living from your human core. If someone asked why, I would say: I like apples. The only word that would be able to explain my behaviour as an immortal would be the poets word. That was then... If I would be granted immortality this moment I would hit my fist against the wall as often as I can handle. These are the most honest answers I can give. If I were not honest I would say, "I would lead the entire planet bla bla do this and thats" while in my mind I'm saying "First I've got to go to the toilet and taste my own pee, and after that I will go outside and walk south untill I reach some sunny beach with boats and a sea full of jellyfish."

 

I like your honest answers aswell, and I do think that your view on immortality is a mature one. May you keep it that way.

[Everything]

If you're immortal, it doesn't matter if you get caught. You can just wait out the consequences!

Exactly. Thats a sharp observation you made.

 

The immortal temperament actually comes from the stubborn and violent child, or heroism of a child ready to be initiated into manhood. Death can't touch an immortal, exactly because they die so often. The fact that death never comes to mind in the immortal life rises to the fact that they find them self impulsively ending up in dangerous situations. These are the impulsives among us who never think before they act. There brains don't perceive the limited time and don't act upon abstraction or judgement of values either. They simply do them. The only way a person can be ready to face death is by immortality, or becoming so full of life that death cannot touch you. In our society this behaviour is seen as childish and not balanced, because the environments has changed and no longer requires immortals to balance things out with the environment. But we still inherent this immortality from our ancestors who fought everyday for survival and required courage to extremes. Especially among men. Thats why most men end up jail and not women. They no longer fit in our environment, but it would be good to have them around, genetically, when the time comes that we need these people. I guess even immortals can learn to become like mortals, yet keep their immortal cores. Simply a process of maturation and addaptation to the environment.

[Birch]

I agree, and I'm aware of David Deida concepts as explained in The Way of the Superior Man

 

Yet I maintain

 

 

No.

 

Except for game playing, like jumping off cliffs, catching bullets with your teeth etc there should not be any difference between how a life is lived dependent on (im)mortality as the distinction is functionally irrelevant.

 

eg. Lets say a genie suddenly appeared and granted a person immortality and that person changed their lifestyle. Then lets say a year later the genie comes back with, "My mistake you are not immortal anymore.... actually you never were so you are just a year closer to dying. Have a nice day!" Because of that should the person change their lifestyle again? What has actually changed? I would say there are some faulty assumptions causing poor choices.

 

In mortality discussions I often enjoy contemplating heart spoon although it's long and SCARY so Mal hates reading it

 

 

 

and thank you Kate I'm also enjoying this discussion.

 

 

I'm sure that understanding will come to all in the fullness of time

_/\_

 

"Heart Spoon"??

 

I just found it long. Not very scary. Quite threatening, like an old grandmother who is upset at seeing her grandchild laugh and play and wants to scare them (uh, me ;-)) with horrible stories of her wasted life.

 

Why contemplate this one Mal? There are so many other ones.

[Mal]

Yea strange name isn't it, probably means something but I never looked into that part. I came across it in a weird place, a book somewhere. It just seems to resonate with me, good practice motivator.

 

.... and I enjoy the sensation of scary stories. I'm reminded of The Little Match Girl, Hans Christian Andersen, another tale of all too brief moments in time

 

The one I 1st read had these Janet and Anne Grahame Johnstone illustrations

1977 "A Book of Fairy Tales."

 

Missing a page but it's basically here

 

http://ny-image1.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181796737.jpg

http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181798386.jpg

http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181798424.jpg

http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181799371.jpg

http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181799406.jpg

http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181800055.jpg

http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.181800847.jpg

[The Observer]

You're already immortal, don't you know?

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Observer

[Everything]

You're already immortal, don't you know?

I do not know I am immortal, because I do not have the courage to know such things. I know I am mortal because I have the care and nurture like that of mother nature, the idealism and un-abstracted chaotic creative power of this nature. If I were to be immortal, disciplined, commited to higher purpose as a strong independent individual, then yes I would know I were already immortal, I would not know that I were mortal...

 

Unless we contemplate our immortality, how will we ever know this truth while alive? Unless we contemplate our mortality how will we ever know this truth while alive?

 

Now, I have a better question for you. You're mortal and immortal at the same time, don't you know? ...You will never know, because the journey does not begin at that returning motion of the Tao. You shall have to choose the path most suitable to you. My guesses are you should contemplate your mortality, unless your assumption was a bluff. In that case you can walk a path similar to mine, which does not even include contemplation, but rather a movement towards the self, as a harmonized unity, by becoming more like the immortal.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Everything