Sun Tzu - The Art of War, Chapter 3

[devoid]

Hi Friends,

 

Xiejia suggested at some stage that we move these discussions somewhere else. What do you all think about requesting to have the Sun Tzu chapter discussions moved to the Tao Te Ching forum? (At first, I thought it would need it's own forum, but when reading the Tao Te Ching forum's subtitle it makes sense: "Forum to discuss classic Taoist texts such as the Tao Teh Ching, I Ching and Chuang-Tzu.")

 

Regardless of what we might agree to to or not, here's chapter 3:

 

III. Attack by Stratagem

1. Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
   
2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
   
3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
   
4. The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over against the walls will take three months more.
   
5. The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.
   
6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.
   
7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph will be complete. This is the method of attacking by stratagem.
   
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two.
   
9. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
   
10. Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force.
    
11. Now the general is the bulwark of the State; if the bulwark is complete at all points; the State will be strong; if the bulwark is defective, the State will be weak.
    
12. There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:--
    
13. (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.
    
14. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds.
    
15. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
    
16. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away.
    
17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
    
18. Hence the saying: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
    

[Marblehead]

Doesn't matter to me if or where this series is moved. I will find you no matter where you might hide. Hehehe.

 

And yes indeed! To win without fighting! The purest form of victory!

[manitou]

18. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.

 

It appears to me that this is the essence of daoism.

 

The way I see it, we are all One; therefore, if someone gets down to their original nature by going inside themselves and finding the uncarved wood, they are capable of seeing and knowing another, as we are all the same. We are One. I can't think of a place even in the TTC where it actually says we are all One and to know ourselves is to know others, but here it is in Sun Tzu...

 

A knowledge of human nature, which we all share, is what the Sage/general attains. If he can utilize his knowledge of human nature to fight a war, this would seem to be the desired method and virtually unbeatable.

 

P.S. - Yes, putting this up in the TTC area would be great - it's too easy to miss this down in the conversation area.

Edited February 19, 2011 by manitou

[humbleone]

I have heard that Sun Tzu - The Art of War, is required reading at the US Military academy West Point.

 

Sadly many Hedge fund managers and Wall street executives are also very found of the book.

 

In the movie Wall Street, Bud Fox says, Sun-tzu: If your enemy is superior, evade him. If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight, and if not split and reevaluate.

 

Gordon Gecko says, I don't throw darts at a board. I bet on sure things. Read Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Every battle is won before it is ever fought.

 

There are also intellectuals that argue that Chess was invested by General Han Xin to illustrate the teachings of Sun Tzu.

Edited February 19, 2011 by humbleone

[devoid]

18. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.

 

It appears to me that this is the essence of daoism.

 

The way I see it, we are all One; therefore, if someone gets down to their original nature by going inside themselves and finding the uncarved wood, they are capable of seeing and knowing another, as we are all the same. We are One. I can't think of a place even in the TTC where it actually says we are all One and to know ourselves is to know others, but here it is in Sun Tzu...

 

A knowledge of human nature, which we all share, is what the Sage/general attains. If he can utilize his knowledge of human nature to fight a war, this would seem to be the desired method and virtually unbeatable.

 

P.S. - Yes, putting this up in the TTC area would be great - it's too easy to miss this down in the conversation area.

 

Hi Manitou,

 

Very nice post - I really enjoyed it!

 

I have just one clarifying question: When you say 'we are all one' I guess that in the taoist sense you mean that 'we all originate from the source' rather than e.g. you and I are a union of some sort (unless if borrowing / mixing with New Age ideas)?

[devoid]

[devoid]

And yes indeed! To win without fighting! The purest form of victory!

 

Yes. Winning based purely holistic understanding and strategic thinking - it doesn't get much better than this!

[manitou]

Hi Manitou,

 

Very nice post - I really enjoyed it!

 

I have just one clarifying question: When you say 'we are all one' I guess that in the taoist sense you mean that 'we all originate from the source' rather than e.g. you and I are a union of some sort (unless if borrowing / mixing with New Age ideas)?

 

No, this will probably separate me from many others. I do believe we are one, in reality. I think it is an illusion that we are separate at all. This is why, when the Sage (or our general in the Art of War) gets to finally know himself, then he knows everyone else as well.

 

We are all sand on the beach. The beach is the One.

 

Or, we are all rays of the same sun. We are One. To finally love myself is to finally love you.

[Everything]

Well, John Nash, equilibrium. A.win-B.win is better then both A.win-B.loose and A.loose-B.win.

 

win-win situations is always the one to seek. Its as simple as that. Entire philosophies in your head will just mess with your clarity of mind.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Yes. Winning based purely holistic understanding and strategic thinking - it doesn't get much better than this!

 

Yeah. The only thing I can think of that would be better would be if there was never a need to win.

[Marblehead]

No, this will probably separate me from many others. I do believe we are one, in reality.

 

 

Hehehe. I already knew that.

[Marblehead]

Well, John Nash, equilibrium. A.win-B.win is better then both A.win-B.loose and A.loose-B.win.

 

win-win situations is always the one to seek. Its as simple as that. Entire philosophies in your head will just mess with your clarity of mind.

 

Chuang Tzu spoke to this concept. (Don't remember where right now.)

 

Something like the smaller state seeks secuity from the larger state etc. where both win.

[manitou]

Hehehe. I already knew that.

 

Yeh, but beyond this the metaphysical legs really get a stretch.

[humbleone]

I am enjoying reading this thread. Sun Tzu - The Art of War, a book I read eons ago. A good reminder to re-read it.

 

This is by David Li, a scholar of Sun Wu's writings.

When one reads the 13 chapters, one must be struck by the theme as expressed by Sun Tzu. The theme is not war but, rather, on its avoidance; the focus is not on winning by waging a war, but on winning by not engaging in a war. To that extent, Sun Wu was greatly influenced by Li Er (popularly known as Lao Tzu, Confucius's senior by some 20 years), who wrote Dao De Jing, and who expressed exactly this view in DDJ. True, many chapters beyond the first chapter in Sun Tzu's work do deal with various aspects of preparing for, and winning, a war, a defensive war. This is also the view expressed in DDJ -- fight a defensive war if one is forced to; when forced to fight, fight to win, but do not rejoice after winning; treat winning a war as undertaking a funeral.

[Marblehead]

Nice addition to the discussion Humbleone.

 

Thanks for joining in.

[manitou]

treat winning a war as undertaking a funeral.

 

 

In the end run, this seems to be the essence.

[devoid]

No, this will probably separate me from many others. I do believe we are one, in reality. I think it is an illusion that we are separate at all. This is why, when the Sage (or our general in the Art of War) gets to finally know himself, then he knows everyone else as well.

 

We are all sand on the beach. The beach is the One.

 

Or, we are all rays of the same sun. We are One. To finally love myself is to finally love you.

 

Hi Manitou,

 

I don't think I share this view, but I find it interesting nonetheless

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[devoid]

Yeah. The only thing I can think of that would be better would be if there was never a need to win.

 

Indeed - at least as long as we restrict ourselves interpreting the treatise to dealing with war.

 

I guess this is a good time for me to continue on my sub-thread theme on interpreting Sun Tzu's Art of War as the Art of Dealing with (complex) Challenges: In this way, this chapter is about the strategy of how to deal with challenges. In the subtitle of this thread I embedded a cue for my thoughts on this: I wrote: "on Engaging Ones Challenges". In this sense, I see winning as a matter of succeeding in dealing and engaging with the challenge at hand.

 

As an example, in the microcosmic perspective, winning oneself over is often a challenge that must dealt with in a delicate manner taking into account that it satisfies the conditions of complex challenge as suggested in the discussion of chapters 1 and 2. IMO this treatise is as great for that as it is for philosophizing on war itself.

[devoid]

I am enjoying reading this thread. Sun Tzu - The Art of War, a book I read eons ago. A good reminder to re-read it.

 

This is by David Li, a scholar of Sun Wu's writings.

When one reads the 13 chapters, one must be struck by the theme as expressed by Sun Tzu. The theme is not war but, rather, on its avoidance; the focus is not on winning by waging a war, but on winning by not engaging in a war. To that extent, Sun Wu was greatly influenced by Li Er (popularly known as Lao Tzu, Confucius's senior by some 20 years), who wrote Dao De Jing, and who expressed exactly this view in DDJ. True, many chapters beyond the first chapter in Sun Tzu's work do deal with various aspects of preparing for, and winning, a war, a defensive war. This is also the view expressed in DDJ -- fight a defensive war if one is forced to; when forced to fight, fight to win, but do not rejoice after winning; treat winning a war as undertaking a funeral.

 

Very nice perspective - thanks, Humbleone!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

I guess this is a good time for me to continue on my sub-thread theme on interpreting Sun Tzu's Art of War as the Art of Dealing with (complex) Challenges: In this way, this chapter is about the strategy of how to deal with challenges. In the subtitle of this thread I embedded a cue for my thoughts on this: I wrote: "on Engaging Ones Challenges". In this sense, I see winning as a matter of succeeding in dealing and engaging with the challenge at hand.

 

 

Hi Devoid and all, ya, I saw your request for that old Sun Tzu thread and I had a look some time ago but just couldn't find the thing. Been a bit busy as of late.

 

It's probably just as well I didn't find it 'cos if I remember rightly I applied the art of war to strategies on 'getting the girl'. I probably didn't win many female fans that way (there's an irony).

 

I think your thread is doing rather nicely on the discussion board, not sure it would get the attention it warrants in another section of the site. Perhaps each chapter after it's disappeared of the first few pages could be then moved to that section chapter by chapter and collated as one thread for long term posting. Just an idea.

[devoid]

Hi Devoid and all, ya, I saw your request for that old Sun Tzu thread and I had a look some time ago but just couldn't find the thing. Been a bit busy as of late.

 

It's probably just as well I didn't find it 'cos if I remember rightly I applied the art of war to strategies on 'getting the girl'. I probably didn't win many female fans that way (there's an irony).

 

I think your thread is doing rather nicely on the discussion board, not sure it would get the attention it warrants in another section of the site. Perhaps each chapter after it's disappeared of the first few pages could be then moved to that section chapter by chapter and collated as one thread for long term posting. Just an idea.

 

Haha - and here I was thinking all the time that the reason for me not being more successful in chasing skirts when I was younger was because I hadn't applied Sun Tzu

 

Joking aside, thanks for popping in occasionally when you find the time - I am thrilled that we've got such a nice discussion going. If you rediscover your old notes, I'd love to hear about them - also thanks (to all of you) for your thoughts on the thread placement

[Everything]

@manitou, yeah.

 

Winning a war, is a win-loose situation for you and the other party. Sure it may sound better then loose-win, but this essence does teach us otherwise.

 

Only win-win is a pure victory, nothing less. A perfect balance that can only be sought for, never fully achieved. Thats why we call it the art of war.