Hexagram 8 - I-Ching

[windblown]

I saw that I could post I-Ching stuff here so I have a question. Actually I asked a question of the I-Ching yesterday. Here it is:

 

"Will the I-Ching teach me more about Tao?"

 

I threw the pennies 6 times and got Hexagram 8 called Pi or Unity. My changing lines were 6 and 1. The reading is awesome and definitely points to me studying the I-Ching to fly with the currents of the winds of Tao. However the changing lines are opposed.

 

Here's the Hexagram meaning overall..."Now the water lies on top of the earth, flowing toward other water, forming streams that unite into rivers that flow into seas. All the lines are feminine and yielding except the fifth which holds them all together.

Unity brings good fortune. Consult the Oracle again to discover whether you posses true grace, constancy and perseverance If so, then take the lead. If not, then join the endeavour and participate fully.

 

QUESTION 1...I like the reading, why should I have to throw the coins again like it says above...darn it?

 

QUESTION 2...Both changing lines give totally opposite answers...which one counts??? The meanings are as follows;

 

 

 

Changing Line 1 says:

 

"True loyalty is without reproach. When the breast is as full of sincerity as a flowing bowl, good fortune comes from far away."

 

Changing Line 6 says:

 

"There is no great leader, no union. Great misfortune."

 

 

 

So I am rather confused about changing lines...is the I-Ching so complicated that each time I read a changing line I have to read multiple other Hexagrams. I am of very little brain. How do I simplify this? Is there an easier way to understand the I-Ching?

[zerostao]

howdy windblown

when you toss the pennies and get a hexagram that has one or more changing lines

(did you start at the bottom and work up?)

you will get a second hexagram. in this case it will be hexagram 42.

the changing lines in hexagram 8 are what give you counsel. not hexagram 8.

it will be hexagram 42 that will do that. but the counsel that the changing lines

from hex 8 give will be telling. once you get to hex 42 , realize that the lines have already changed to produce this hexagram. so do not consider the counsel from the moving lines in hex 42. just the hexagram itself.

i hope this helps some? it does go deeper than this as one needs to have an understanding of the pre heaven and post heaven bagua and the ten wings.

take your time to study and ponder the I Ching.

once you get a better feel for the underlying principles and the attributes it will make more sense to you.

[windblown]

So basically hexagram 8 is a 'telling' and hex. 42 is the 'counsel?' What's the difference between a telling and a counsel? Does Hex. 8 actually have no bearing in the situation? Yes, I did start from bottom up. So both lines change and make a different hexagram...you don't use just the first changing line and ignore the 2nd changing line? Somewhere I read that if you have multiple changing lines you only pick one.

 

Ayway, thanks for your post. I am enthusiastic about learning. I will read hex. 42 but now I have to go to work.

[zerostao]

well. many people do use one changing line for the secondary hexagram.

there is much debate about this. i am not trying to confuse further .

i should have worded my initial response more carefully. in that is the way I do it.

there are many approaches to dealing with changing lines . some choose to find a way to eliminate them all together.

imo what is important is to have a specific approach in mind when you cast the reading. i do it the same each time in trying for consistent results.

many people will disagree with me about this.

the I Ching is well ready to share with the different approaches. once you understand the mechanism at work here i feel you will realize what i mean.

take the time to personally becoming aquainted with the I Ching. study and ponder.

you will find your approach as well. once you and the I Ching (think of it as a person)(a very cool and wise person) become comfortable with each other and form a trust, then everything will fall into place.

once you have studied more about the upper and lower trigrams , the significance of each line's position. then you will have a better idea how it all works.

[zerostao]

So basically hexagram 8 is a 'telling' and hex. 42 is the 'counsel?' What's the difference between a telling and a counsel? Does Hex. 8 actually have no bearing in the situation? Yes, I did start from bottom up. So both lines change and make a different hexagram...you don't use just the first changing line and ignore the 2nd changing line? Somewhere I read that if you have multiple changing lines you only pick one.

 

Ayway, thanks for your post. I am enthusiastic about learning. I will read hex. 42 but now I have to go to work.

seriously i am not trying to confuse or complicate. i am like you having a little brain . hex 42 will have no meaning for you becoz of the approach you had when you cast the reading and tossed the coins. hex 8 is what you should be looking at becoz of your level of understanding I Ching at this time. and it makes sense to me that I Ching told you to inquire again . but first maybe do a little study and have a specific idea of how you will deal with the changing lines but i also feel it gave you the answer. it also said "those that are uncertain gradually join"

isn't it speaking directly to you? 8 it is hexagram of holding together. you asked the I Ching about if it will help you understand the tao. here it is holding and uniting your quest for learning. it is joyous you have asked it to teach you about tao. it invites you to continue asking it. there is a union of the I Ching and tao. it gave you the confusion in regards with the changing lines becoz you didnt have a way prepared to deal with them. so begin to learn about that.

[Mr. T]

hey all,

 

wb, my relationship with the i ching is very new and fresh, but one thing you typed earlier that stood out to me was when you said the changing lines were opposites. that might be so, be we only have to look to the taiji symbol to see that opposites contain some vestige of the other. that is why we study taoism, to find the yin within the yang and figure out how it all works, right? zero's posts are also very good advice...good luck!

[Guest allan]

I saw that I could post I-Ching stuff here so I have a question. Actually I asked a question of the I-Ching yesterday. Here it is:

 

"Will the I-Ching teach me more about Tao?"

 

I threw the pennies 6 times and got Hexagram 8 called Pi or Unity. My changing lines were 6 and 1. The reading is awesome and definitely points to me studying the I-Ching to fly with the currents of the winds of Tao. However the changing lines are opposed.

 

Here's the Hexagram meaning overall..."Now the water lies on top of the earth, flowing toward other water, forming streams that unite into rivers that flow into seas. All the lines are feminine and yielding except the fifth which holds them all together.

Unity brings good fortune. Consult the Oracle again to discover whether you posses true grace, constancy and perseverance If so, then take the lead. If not, then join the endeavour and participate fully.

 

QUESTION 1...I like the reading, why should I have to throw the coins again like it says above...darn it?

 

QUESTION 2...Both changing lines give totally opposite answers...which one counts??? The meanings are as follows;

 

 

 

Changing Line 1 says:

 

"True loyalty is without reproach. When the breast is as full of sincerity as a flowing bowl, good fortune comes from far away."

 

Changing Line 6 says:

 

"There is no great leader, no union. Great misfortune."

 

 

 

So I am rather confused about changing lines...is the I-Ching so complicated that each time I read a changing line I have to read multiple other Hexagrams. I am of very little brain. How do I simplify this? Is there an easier way to understand the I-Ching?

 

Tao and the Book of Changes are both deep and profound subjects. If a fellow student has not studied the Book of Changes for ten years or more, it would be difficult to understand this ancient classic and the prognostications, let alone learn Tao from its teachings.

 

The bottom line of Hexagram 8 signifies that you have just entered the situation and it depicts a good beginning.

 

The top line signifies that you would be eventually led astray depicting a bad ending; the reason because there is no head, or teacher.

 

In a two- line change, the upper line or in your case, the top line is more significant.

 

Whether you want to divine again after obtaining Hexagram 8 is up to you.

 

Read the Tao Te Ching and the Daoist texts if you want to learn more about Tao. Cultivate Tao and Te, if and when you know how to.

 

Study the Book of Changes and ponder the prognostications, like what zerostao suggested.

 

Over time, when you learned enough on both profound subjects, you could try to tie up both teachings then.

[windblown]

It sounds intriguing and overwhelming all at once. I've decided I don't want to dedicate the next 10 years of my life to learning the I-Ching. Plus it's too difficult for me to understand. I certainly do respect those of you who have and are studying it. It must be a powerful adjunct to your spirituality and life learning. I admire your tenacity. Thanks for posting.

[Eric23]

It sounds intriguing and overwhelming all at once. I've decided I don't want to dedicate the next 10 years of my life to learning the I-Ching. Plus it's too difficult for me to understand. I certainly do respect those of you who have and are studying it. It must be a powerful adjunct to your spirituality and life learning. I admire your tenacity. Thanks for posting.

 

You're going to give up that easy? How about this instead? Make a commitment to read through the I Ching without doing any casting of coins. Just read it to understand the underlying wisdom of the work. I know there are more preferred translations out there, but Wu Wei's is easy to read in English and has some very good introductory chapters on how to use the I Ching. You may find it speaks to you at a very profound level. Then just work with it, continue reading and the next thing you know, it's been 10 years.

[windblown]

O.K. Eric23...I will read Wu-Wei's book through. I know he has two books written at Barnes and Noble and I have $23.00 dollars in my pocket today. One of his books is on the I-Ching and the other is on something else about the I-Ching.

 

I actually have tried to learn the I-Ching before so I have more accumulated time than two weeks but I have retained only about 2 weeks of knowledge.

 

I'm open and I need a new read...Thanks!

[Eric23]

Good for you! Just remember this isn't a post-graduate, immersion learning track. It's a journey. Like any other journey within yourself, do a little something every day, stick with it and then one day there will be a breakthrough.

[Easy]

I suggest you pick up a copy of The Taoist I Ching (Thomas Cleary). It is a translation of a commentary by Liu I-Ming who was a Taoist adept from the 1700s. It is less of an oracle and more of an on-going and open-ended exercise in self-cultivation. The introduction is quite helpful for those who are just getting started in Taoism. It can not be read literally because of the huge gulf between Lui I-Ming's culture and time and your own.

[windblown]

Zerostao,

I really like your approach to learning the I-Ching. It takes the scariness out of it for me. I like that I can think of the I-Ching as a very wise person and form a relationship with it. And in time, I will develop my own method for line reading. Thanks for your open-minded and gentle approach.

 

Eric23-I bought the Wu-Wei I-Ching and have gotten as far as the introduction-I will read it through before practicing as I think it a very good idea. Thanks.

 

Easy-After the Wu-Wei edition I will buy Cleary's book. I have heard it was really good too. Appreciate the advice

 

Allan-I think you're right. It's going to take time. And I consider all of you here to be my teachers. Don't worry, I won't be too needy but I will glean much info. by staying close to this site and all of you. Thanks.

 

Mr. T-keeping the taiji symbol in mind coinsides with the book of changes. It in indeed a visual reminder of the Way throughout the I-Ching-thanks for sharing your observation.

 

Gotta go to work...thank you to all!!!

[manitou]

Windblown -

 

What a wonderful voice you have added to this forum. It's obvious you're a real live wire. I noticed in another thread that you're no longer going to AA meetings - I too am a recovering alkie (30 years in December) but I no longer go to meetings either. There just aren't any decent ones around where I live; even if there were, I still wouldn't go very often.

 

I just wanted to mention that we're doing Tao Te Ching studies on this particular thread. We're trying to extrapolate all the essence out of the chapters and in doing so I think we all increase our understanding. Please join us! Also, we're doing a study on the Nei-yeh (which I had never heard of until last week) and it's very similar in character to the Tao te Ching, but has a different essence. If you're interested in learning more about the Tao, this would be the place....

[windblown]

Got the day off Manitou...Yay! 'll see ya on the Tao Te Ching forum and the Nei thing!

 

As far as A.A goes, I am bored with the wierdos, nazis and parrots..not slamming the organization...it was there when I needed it most. However, I have a theory about the whole alkie thing. I had to hit bottom, like they say. I thought I had done this many other times but the last time was different. I finally 'got it' to the core of my being that I could never drink again. There was no lingering threads of clutching fingers on that beer bottle. I am done. I know I will never drink again whether I go to A.A or Mars. And A.A. is not going to scare me into thinking if I quit going to meetings, I'll get drunk. It's still the best and easiest way to get sober but I have a need for freedom and change and A.A.'s not too big on either...my name's Windblown for gosh sakes! Time to whistle 'round the next corner and here I am!!!

[manitou]

I know what you mean about the meetings, after a while. It seems like people who have long term sobriety go to meetings not because they get anything anymore - it's like they're giving back to the ones who haven't gotten it yet.

 

The 12 steps are magic, as far as I'm concerned. I think that people who go into their own character as per the 12 steps have gone a long way to getting to the inner essence of the Tao (or more specifically, the wu-wei aspect of the Tao, which is where we cause action by inaction). It is a very delicate balancing act, and folks who still have a lot of dross inside can't seem to get down to the inaction.

 

There is a certain inner vision that goes along with this as well - some of us are capable of Seeing, but on a different playing field, almost like a separate reality. I sense that your depth is way down there, and I'll bet you're a bit of a Seer? Somehow I hear it between your words.

 

So - if you want to learn the Taoist 'vocabulary' (which is no doubt stuff that your soul already knows but it just needs to learn the arrangement of ideas) I'd recommend going onto the Tao Te Ching thread and start with the discussions back at Chapter One - it wouldn't take you very long and you'll 'get it' right away. As to the inner work, you've already done it, friend. Now we're just doing step 11 daily, and you already know how to do the maintenance. We just keep doing the self examination and making amends when they come up - and this is essential for the sorcery part of the Tao, which is wu-wei.

 

I'm so glad you're here!

[windblown]

Thanks Manitou...very wise and true words. I am always astounded by your depth and ability to convey deep meaning with words. I am a little rough around the edges in that department. I too believe the twelve steps, and especially 11, are a horizontal path with Taoist philosophy. Wu-Wei is the coolest thing when I can work it right. It just makes me so happy.

 

I have decided after reading the first half of the Wu-Wei, I-Ching book, that it is too complicated an endeavor for me right now. I am just not ready. Plus I am horrible at math and numbers are excruciatingly painful for me to 'get.' I have to be true to my inner nature which doesn't care to know the future but to make it as good as I can by practicing Wu-Wei in every moment of now. (Which of course is impossible for me all the time, but an ideal to aspire to!) I am more of a visual person. I work in a framing store where I get to match colors in the art work to a rainbow of mats and over 300 different frames. And I love it.

 

I know the I-Ching is a great and wonderfulthing that directly connects us to the universe but at this time it is not the path for me. I can't force it. I admire and respect all of you that are on that path and I thank you for your support here. Please don't be disappointed in me.

[manitou]

Windblown, please don't go anywhere! You're going to be too much fun, I can tell.

 

I've never read the I-Ching. You are way ahead of me there. My particular path was just the 12 steps, starting back in 1981; once I got into the program, I went full bore born-again Christian, then outgrew that. I discovered the Eastern philosophies some years ago and have read lots of Yogi and Buddhist books and works.

 

But one day I discovered the Tao Te Ching at a yard sale. It's very short, but the wisdom contained in those few pages was something that my heart just leapt at. I have read many translations of the same thing.

 

But you are already 'here'. Please don't feel like this forum is a course of study or anything; more commonly, it's a bunch of people who have cut loose of ANY form of religious preference. Some of the most open minded people in the world here.

 

I think the only reason people may have responded to your initial questions with mention of various tomes is because of the way you worded your initial question. Please just stick around. There is no dogma here to be studied; I have no immediate plans for even reading the I-Ching.

 

The reason we're studying the Tao Te Ching (up in the Tao Te Ching section at the top of the pinned topics) is because there are so many different ways of looking at it - everyone who translates it from the Chinese (I am not a translator) seems to put their own spin on it, depending on the depth of their own spiritual knowledge. We're also looking at another work, the Nei-Yeh - a thread I started because I just discovered it the other day (at someone's recommendation) and it's very similar to the Tao te Ching, but it gives a little more input as to how people get into their inner serves. This you already know how to do.

 

I can tell you also that not everyone on this forum has done any inner work at all. It becomes pretty apparent; there are those with negative attitudes that stand out like a sore thumb. I in particular would love to see you stick around because your voice is so very alive, and it's obvious that you know yourself down to the bone, which is where the inner work gets you to.

 

Once we've gotten down to the bone, the Tao manifests. This is where the wu-wei happens. I'd be interested to know what you are calling wu-wei; if you truly understand how to do it, this is another thing that is in short supply on this forum, despite the fact that it is a Tao forum. There might be a little more to it than you're thinking.

 

It doesn't seem like any of us here started out as "Taoists" or even identify as such. I haven't heard anybody on this forum even talk about being one. This just seems to be a place where we all land once we've climbed out of the structure of organized religious structure in any discipline. AA types are really further along than they think because of their propensity and willingness to go within and look for your own deficiencies. We do get into discussions here where some do not see the necessity for doing this at all; I am one who thinks it is absolutely essential for the understanding of deep spiritual dynamic. To know ourself is to know the world, in a certain sense.

 

So, girlfriend - please take the pressure off yourself. Nuthin' to read, nuthin' to do. But do stick around. We need your particular wisdom; I can see it between the lines you write.

 

To coin a phrase, "Keep Comin' Back", lol.

 

Barb