Desire, Sex, Tantra

[neimad]

 

Cloud - will you give up the joy of argument?

Sean - will you give up the joy or research and analysis?

Ian - will you give up trying to be right?

 

 

neimad - will you give up being a raving lunatic?

 

 

hahahaha.

well actually, the lunatic part is new.... but i always was raving.

 

 

ian you got something with that post above, for sure.

 

everyone heed ian's words:

 

IT'S HARD HARD HARD HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!!

 

we have to work hard, we have to suffer, we have to die, we have to destroy every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to obliterate our attachment to everything we loved.

 

the language doesn't necessarily have to be so violent to explain the process but that's the only way it can be done as far as i can see.

but not to fear because as far as i can see that by doing these processes we will get to experience REAL love, and our relationship to everything can only get better.

 

karma yoga.

 

why do you think all the stories of enlightened masters they went through so much incredible hardship.

 

what about milarepa? marpa broke him down so ridiculously.......

 

of course, the stronger our attachment (desire, etc) the harder it's gonna be and the harder we have to work (relation to karma?).

 

 

i accept now that's it gonna be hard, so bloody hard. there is no easy way, there is no magic pill..... and if someone is trying to sell you one - they are an agent of the matrix! be wary!

 

but once you make the choice.... there is no other option but to do the hard work. do the hard work with your body, do the hard work with your brain, do the hard work with your spirit.

 

god doesn't accept the weak so if you aren't prepared to commit your entire existance, to give everything away..... then you might as well give up now because you aint gonna get anywhere and it would save you a lot of anguish to not think about it anymore.

 

 

 

of course my bum is just doing all the talking here, as usual

 

 

 

 

IMHO enlightenment can be seen to be a very natural process. Like the unfolding of a flower. There is pain. There is loss. And there is also great pleasure and great beauty.

 

 

i like the analogy of the caterpillar putrifying in the chrysalis (matrix) to eventually become a butterfly better.

 

 

but if you truly think it's going to unfold nice and smoothly.... easily and then just be done.... c'mon sean, you gotta be fooling yourself.

 

 

it's true there is pain and loss that results in great pleasure and beauty (infinite love).

 

but we gotta wade through a whole lot of pain, loss and intense fear. yes, it's intense as anything could ever possibly be.....

 

 

i've come close to something a couple of times in the past two weeks and i was so fucking scared, more than i have ever been about anything, ever.

 

it's so frightening to look at the chasm and realise that if you jump you will NEVER be the same again. that who you think you are has to die.

 

and it has to die. the caterpillar MUST die to create the butterfly.

[freeform]

IT'S HARD HARD HARD HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!!

 

we have to work hard, we have to suffer, we have to die, we have to destroy every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to obliterate our attachment to everything we loved.

 

IT'S FUN FUN FUN FUN PLAY!!!!!!!!

 

we have to play and have fun, we have to enjoy life, we have to live, we have to appreciate every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to embrace our attachment to everything we love.

 

 

Somewhere in between these two extremes there is truth... I dont know where...

 

Fun involves a bit of fear and confusion... fear and confusion can either be something you have to slay, or something you have to play!

 

Fear and confusion are just words ofcourse... when I feel both of them in my body, there is this subtle presence that I feel... forget the labels just feel the feelings... if you label them they either become empowering or disempowering... either way thay're props on the stage of life... but forgeting labels lets it be what it is, and flow the way it has to flow.... without ego without grasping without unconcious labeling.

[cloud recluse]

Only for you.

What really stops us from experiencing ourselves as part of the big picture, aligned with big mind, a cell in the body of life?

 

The belief that stuff we think is experienced within our skin bag is different, separate or more important than stuff outside it. The idea that there's a boundary there.

 

Even in my very limited experience detachment requires an open, expansive, presence which takes in more, not less of what is actually happening, just doesn't call it me.

 

So to be truly detached from something you gotta be right up in its face. But not savouring your passion, emotion, reactions, and thinking OOH, it's so real it must be valid. That's just an excuse for not even bothering to try and do the job. That's the tricky mind saying it's ok, you don't even need to start, the premise is invalid.

 

Spiritual practice is DIFFICULT. You have to die to yourself. Lots of other things get lumped in and filed under general weirdness, and people assume they are a kind of spiritual practice. But they ain't. Spiritual practice is a form of suicide. You get it all back, if you succeed, but by then you don't care. But you gotta gotta gotta be prepared to give it all up.

..........

 

Ok Ian,I agree with the essence of your first 2 points,though Im not sure about the 3rd yet.But one thing I dont agree with,if I read you rightly,is the overall theme I get from your language( no,theres no sign of me giving up argument yet).It seems like you have a huge attachment to the image of The Struggling Seeker,very Judeo-Christian.You seem to be hooked around a "You" that will do a lot of renunciation in order to "get" Enlightenment,while at the same time advocating the Full Contact that Im on about.I suspect your carrying some baggage there man.

 

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen.In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

 

But its as easy as it is hard,& this is what you mightnt like about what Im saying.As far as I can tell ,you only want it to be hard,you dont want it to be easy.Perhaps that reeks of sin to you,or lacks the necessary punitive imagery to assauge some kind of guilt you feel,I dunno.

 

I go totally with Adyashanti on this.If your a hard nut to crack,addicted to strenous self-effort,it will be "Hard",& you wouldnt have it any other way.You have to be broken in order to get anywhere.But why be broken?

 

Its like Meditation,its only "Hard" when you struggle with it.When you release into the process,the 'fuel' for your 'effort' becomes so readily abundant,its no longer an effort.The Dao is superabundant & overflowing.Look at the whole cosmos its allready brought forth in gorgeous,wasteful display.

 

Stop obsessing about self destruction as a goal in itself & get into the Flow.They you will outgrow your illusions in their own good time.And dont worry,this still 'needs" effort & self-discipline to accept whats coming,but it mightnt be the hardship & struggle your ego may desperately want it to be.

 

If Im misrepresenting you I do apologize,and I believe you are sincere in what you say,but is it not possible that if you drop the Struggling Seeker bit you will just Fall Awake in your own good time (Another Adya-ism there).Ive allready done the "I will force myself Awake through personal effort" trip.Its crap!!! It leads nowhere,only to morbid self-obsession.Thats why I go with the Dao instead.

 

Stay alert,but dont Struggle.

 

Regards,Cloud.

Edited June 20, 2006 by cloud recluse

[neimad]

we can either work hard to make it easy.

 

or we can work easy and make it hard.

 

 

thinking it's just going to be an easy walk in the park is a ridiculous concept.

 

one can change their attitude to the hard work (in fact one must if they are going to get out of it without a few trips to the psych ward) and do the service with love and enjoy it.... but it don't change the fact that it's gonna be HARD!!!

 

vigiliance, determination, discipline.... and above all... impeccability.

 

 

i am pretty certain that anyone who thinks they are going to have a nice easy time and unfold gently and beautifully like a flower without putting in the effort, time and hard work i am sure will be in for a very rude shock when they reach the point of death (of the ego). that's an unfathomable chasm and there will come a point when one has to jump. to not jump is to remain a humaton and die without ever building up the soul (immortal body to use taoist terminology) to continue on the spiral whilst keeping a personal sense (although ultimately that'll have to go too).

 

not that i'm saying anyone here isn't putting in the hard work.... sitting down to do practices every day is hard work. doing the research and contemplating/reflecting upon who you are is intensley hard work.... and it's all necessary.

 

there is no time to pussyfoot around.... but everything in it's due course.

 

make haste slowly.

[Cameron]

From my understanding both of these appraches are represented in the Zen school. Soto Zen, which is centered around the practice of shikan taza, is like a farmer gently growing his food. He takes care of the process and has faith it will develop naturally.

 

The Rinzai school is more represented in the extreme and even violent stories of enlightenment you here about. A teacher breaking his students arm and they wake up or something. This is described as a General(warrior) bravely and strongly facing the army(ego). Like more of a struggle or battle is involved.

 

I'll be interested in hering Adya's views of enlightenment this weekend. Interestingly, the aikido teacher I want to study with is very into zen and obviously I would describe him as a kind of modern samurai. Or as close to a samurai as your going to find these days.

 

Cam

[cloud recluse]

we can either work hard to make it easy.

 

or we can work easy and make it hard.

thinking it's just going to be an easy walk in the park is a ridiculous concept.

 

one can change their attitude to the hard work (in fact one must if they are going to get out of it without a few trips to the psych ward) and do the service with love and enjoy it.... but it don't change the fact that it's gonna be HARD!!!

 

vigiliance, determination, discipline.... and above all... impeccability...

 

there is no time to pussyfoot around.... but everything in it's due course.

 

make haste slowly.

 

Id half agree with you here,except Id say that anyone who predicts it either way, easy or hard ,is being ridiculous by virtue of thinking they can predict it.Certainly impeccability is required,but so is ease.BOTH OF EM!!!!

 

Anybody who thinks Waking Up is going to be a Hard Struggle will also be in for a very relieving shock when they are thrown headlong into death,without any need to jump,and discover the obsessive control trip theyve been on all their lives creates so much screaming resistance that their psyche shatters and reality just floods in(as its always trying to do).

 

Impeccability is effort when its driven by a morbid fear of death.If your yogas are exhausting instead of enlivening,look to your own tendencies of self hatred.Do you want to immolate the person you are,do you eagerly anticipate being someone else.are you desperate to dehumanise yourself?

 

once again,what are you scared of?That the Archons/Matrix is bigger than the Dao?piss on the Archons,laugh at them,the Matrix is feeble!! Do it with skill by all means,I AM NOT ADVOCATING PASSIVITY,but dont burden yourself with images & predictions of drastic transformations & self erasure.Castaneda invented that stuff coz he was neurotic,hating & fearing himself & tried to turn his social alienation into a virtue.

 

You dont know when it will be Hard or Easy until each stage comes around.Impeccable.Yes.Puritanical,No.If you hate yourself,you block access to the very material you need to work with to wake up.Self hate & a desperation to disapear are of no use to the Warrior.Power outshines contempt (be it contempt for self or others).Contempt doesnt generate Power.

 

Stay alert,Dont Struggle.

 

Regards,Cloud.

[neimad]

since you seemed to be talking to me, i'll reply to it from myself.

 

 

i don't hate myself, i don't even hate who i was.... i can use terms like "pathetic" and "pitiful" about myself but it doesn't mean i hate myself, i understand that the state of being pathetic and pitiful... the whole process that took me to develop that was learning in itself.

 

i see to develop the power is to go back and understand the exact process and development of that persona (act) that i now see as pathetic. to love the processes that influenced me to be where i am going back through the processes and releasing their binding limitations on my very being.

 

 

i don't think castaneda invented anything. the system he outlined is desribed again and again throughout all of true spiritual paths.

 

recapitulation - going back and discovering all the lessons we missed and learning from them now (erasing personal history).

stalking - discovering all our routines and habits, the way our thoughts work and catching it... thus mastering our own process.

dreaming - the generation of the 'double' (in taoism called the "immortal body" also could be considered soul, energy body, astral body, blah blah blah) and using that to experience existance outside of this particular matrix.

using death as an advisor - not a morbid infatuation with death but merely the recognition that ONE WILL DIE! it's not some distant event occurring to someon else... it's very real and it's always at our shoulder. death cannot be ignored and becoming aware of it is the most powerful motivating factor that exists.

and so on.....

 

 

i am using violent language because i find it funny to do so, and i've had a go of all the lovey dovey stuff. but it's the same thing.

 

neither passive nor struggling.

i say "hard work" but thats not really an appropriate description..... it's not about struggling but it's about determination, discipline and vigilance.

 

there is no self-hate and there is no desperation to dissapear. there is no desire to change who i am.... just a path and a purpose and no other choice left but to walk it even though it's all utterly useless.

 

 

 

 

but we are all here and we do all WANT SOMETHING TO HAPPEN. i hear people sometimes say "there is no need to change because you are already perfect" or some other such nonsense.... and if that's truly the case then why fucking bother doing any spiritual practice? why bother questioning existance? what's the point of it all other than to change/grow/develop/evolve? sure enough once you've done all that we will probably be able to say "aha now i realise i was that way all along, but i just had to realise it"

 

YEAH.... HAD TO REALISE IT!

 

that's what it is, and it requires the work to be done. simple. and most of the people are doing the work.... probably even you, cloud, are doing the work.

 

sean... despite all his lovely flower analogies and so forth, works bloody hard! hours of meditation a day, yoga, looking after health, reading and researching....... that's HARD WORK!!! to achieve whatever the hell it is we are trying to get to, we gotta put in the work. and the work = effort (to some degree) we spent so long building up limitations, traumas, karma, blah blah blah that the work is removing that to get back to our natural state of wu-wei, effortlessness, whatever.

[thelerner]

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

 

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

 

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".

 

 

Michael

[cloud recluse]

Well in that case Neimad I pretty much agree with you,though I wasnt actually"targeting" you personally there.As Ive said in previous posts,its more a certain kind of language that I find loaded with ascetic assumptions.Im pretty much writing this stuff in the heat of the moment,I normally sort through the fallout later at leisure.

 

I still think Castanedas presentation of these ideas is smeared with his own neurosis.Seriously,do a bit of research on the man himself ( if youe inclined),its quite eye opening.

 

Actually,out of general interest,did you arrive at Castaneda independently,or was it through Jake Horselys stuff?

 

One thing I disagree with is the image of the Path being "useless" .The overwhelming Mystery of things certainly outstrips our ability to predict consequences & solidify our explanations,but is it useless,or Unfathomable instead?Either way,your still left with the warriors impeccability if you want to wake up,but "useless' smacks of a certain Nihilism.I think "unpredictable" has the same use but without the potential negativity.Whadya reckon ?

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

 

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

 

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".

Michael

 

Yes,Yes,Yes !!! THANKYOU. Ok,its time to hear from the Man himself.Sean,your definetely a more experienced player than me,what do you think of these analasyis of your perspective? Lets hear it Big Boy!

[neimad]

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

 

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

 

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".

Michael

 

i get it that it has to be enjoyable. as i said, somewhere, you either learn to laugh (enjoy the work) or end up with a few trips to the psych ward (or end up killing yourself or dosing yourself senseless with drugs, alcohol, television, etc....).

 

it's not that i'm saying you cant play and have fun and enjoy it all...... but it's hard work!

 

chopping wood can be immensley enjoyable, if you act in it... but it's still hard work!

 

i only use hard work for want of anything better to say, but we have all these preconceived ideas that hard work = struggle.

 

noone ever got anywhere by doing nothing. but those who work hard and can laugh and smile.... always succeed.

 

it would be a rough journey down the river for one of those water particles.... bumping around corners, hitting rocks and so on.... but the little water particle just goes along with it all for the ride, even though it's a tough one he recognises he can't do anything else but just go with it.

 

ahhhhhh i dunno.

 

I still think Castanedas presentation of these ideas is smeared with his own neurosis.Seriously,do a bit of research on the man himself ( if youe inclined),its quite eye opening.

 

it doesn't bother me what history says about castaneda. i was never really interested in castaneda himself, rather don juan (or the persona of carlos that was don juan.... or whatever!) and the underlying theme throughout the books of the warriors path. i read them all twice and filed the relevant information away somewhere knowing it was useful but not quite how to apply it.

 

Actually,out of general interest,did you arrive at Castaneda independently,or was it through Jake Horselys stuff?

 

castaneda independantly. then jake comes along who has gone to all the effort of taking those core warrior teachings and putting it so succinctly. suddenly, with extra teachings from a few other people for other explinations, i am beginning to understand how to apply it all to my life. i can see the general theme.... and having just read jake's reiteration of it, i'm using the language because it's the most fun lingo to me... it's kinda mysterious and sounds cool.

 

One thing I disagree with is the image of the Path being "useless" .The overwhelming Mystery of things certainly outstrips our ability to predict consequences & solidify our explanations,but is it useless,or Unfathomable instead?Either way,your still left with the warriors impeccability if you want to wake up,but "useless' smacks of a certain Nihilism.I think "unpredictable" has the same use but without the potential negativity.Whadya reckon ?

 

unfathomable is much nicer, yes but gives the impression that we don't know it's all a game... when we do (even if we pretend we don't)! when i speak of useless it's not in a negative way but rather i'm just astounded that it's all a game and the end of the game is what we are working towards with this spiritual quest. the end of the game (the big one, not just our little microcosmic versions of it) is the end of it all (just like the end of our human games = the end of the matrix for us). when i begin to look upon that i cannot help but laugh out of the sheer absurdity of it all.

 

what a massive giant joke!

Edited June 20, 2006 by neimad

[minimoke]

 

Cloud - will you give up the joy of argument?

Sean - will you give up the joy or research and analysis?

Ian - will you give up trying to be right?

 

Will you give up being yourself? Will you go right out on a limb and have no idea what to do next because you don't know who you are? Will you endure that uncertainty for decades if necessary, years of apparent pointlessness, because you love God/tao/love, whatever you call it, so much?

 

Maybe neimad will.

 

 

Neimad will. Neimad does. But then I am talking for Neimad. What gives me that right? Because I am a head?

 

Minimoke gave up being himself long time ago. Long before he discovered Zen. Long before he discovered Tao. Everytime you ask a question you give up alittle of yourself for the common good, or "other" good.

[minimoke]

 

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen. In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

Experience every "moment". Love life every "moment". Cram enough "moments" into your life and Enlightenment will jump on you.

[Ian]

Ok Ian,I agree with the essence of your first 2 points,though Im not sure about the 3rd yet.But one thing I dont agree with,if I read you rightly,is the overall theme I get from your language( no,theres no sign of me giving up argument yet).It seems like you have a huge attachment to the image of The Struggling Seeker,very Judeo-Christian.You seem to be hooked around a "You" that will do a lot of renunciation in order to "get" Enlightenment,while at the same time advocating the Full Contact that Im on about.I suspect your carrying some baggage there man.

 

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen.In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

 

But its as easy as it is hard,& this is what you mightnt like about what Im saying.As far as I can tell ,you only want it to be hard,you dont want it to be easy.Perhaps that reeks of sin to you,or lacks the necessary punitive imagery to assauge some kind of guilt you feel,I dunno.

 

I go totally with Adyashanti on this.If your a hard nut to crack,addicted to strenous self-effort,it will be "Hard",& you wouldnt have it any other way.You have to be broken in order to get anywhere.But why be broken?

 

Its like Meditation,its only "Hard" when you struggle with it.When you release into the process,the 'fuel' for your 'effort' becomes so readily abundant,its no longer an effort.The Dao is superabundant & overflowing.Look at the whole cosmos its allready brought forth in gorgeous,wasteful display.

 

Stop obsessing about self destruction as a goal in itself & get into the Flow.They you will outgrow your illusions in their own good time.And dont worry,this still 'needs" effort & self-discipline to accept whats coming,but it mightnt be the hardship & struggle your ego may desperately want it to be.

 

If Im misrepresenting you I do apologize,and I believe you are sincere in what you say,but is it not possible that if you drop the Struggling Seeker bit you will just Fall Awake in your own good time (Another Adya-ism there).Ive allready done the "I will force myself Awake through personal effort" trip.Its crap!!! It leads nowhere,only to morbid self-obsession.Thats why I go with the Dao instead.

 

Stay alert,but dont Struggle.

 

Regards,Cloud.

 

I know it's easy, and that all you have to do is drop the hard bit. Stop struggling.

And my own practice is becoming more effortless all the time, (especially just now with an awesome solstice vibe going on )

 

But.... it's harder to drop the hard bit than all you bliss-munchers think.

 

I'm not after cruxifiction. But look:

 

You start a practice. It works great in the areas where you have not much resistance. And you tend to avoid those areas where you do have much resistance. And your resistance will make up very very plausible reasons why you shouldn't even go there. Which is why much spiritual practice runs straight into a brick wall.

 

All I'm saying is that we have to go through the extremely painful process of giving up the bits we want to keep. It needn't cause us even a tiny bit of suffering, but it will be painful. "Enjoy the pain!" my sifu says, with a big grin.

 

I'm not addicted to suffering, I'm generally a lazy, happy bugger. I'm just trying to provide another side to the coin. I read a lot of posts on here which make me think that folks are practice-surfing, picking and choosing those approaches which appeal to the part of them that has to go. How's that for irony?

 

All I'm trying to say, really, is that if you keep playing, having fun, exploring the possibilities, manifesting bliss etc etc etc, it is indulgence of the small self and that self will run you in circles.

 

So much of what people say in response to this sort of argument is perfectly right and plausible IF AND ONLY IF you are already empty and unattached and big mind is leading your spontaneous expression. THEN you can groove with creation.

 

But we all have a huge amount of house-clearing to do before we get to that stage and I sincerely believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

 

It doesn't have to be tough, it just has to be done.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Ian

[neimad]

i'm with ya ian.

 

 

hard work.... karma yoga.

 

 

and i tell ya, i'm one of the lasiest buggers around.... i always thought there had to be a magic pill or an easy way.

 

but i realise now thats all bollocks..... the only way is to do the work.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 18, 2015 by 三江源

[cloud recluse]

....

unfathomable is much nicer, yes but gives the impression that we don't know it's all a game... when we do (even if we pretend we don't)! when i speak of useless it's not in a negative way but rather i'm just astounded that it's all a game and the end of the game is what we are working towards with this spiritual quest. the end of the game (the big one, not just our little microcosmic versions of it) is the end of it all (just like the end of our human games = the end of the matrix for us). when i begin to look upon that i cannot help but laugh out of the sheer absurdity of it all.

 

what a massive giant joke!

 

Ah.I actually concur with pretty much everything youve said here except that very last point.This is where we may differ ( this also may seem really trivial on my part,but I really like hammering these things out in the public arena.Im sure Im only a short step away from standing on the street somewhere shouting at complete strangers).

 

When I say "Unfathomable",or express reservations about other terms being nihilistic,or potentially nihilistic,its not that Im particularly concerned that certain terms are 'nice',& Im probably as intolerant of bliss-munchers as I am obsessive about language.Its more that I really do think that the term is more accurate,in that it avoids the patential nihilism of the other terms,and doesnt lay claim to knowledge of where its all headed.I honestly dont know if "It',all of it macrocosmically,is a game or not.I cant see a particular direction in which the World-Process is definetly headed,though I can see some of the possible options.

 

Certainly there is gigantic humour in our situation.Adyashanti spoke of a certain amusing embarresment that accompanied Enlightenment,the huge ironic joke of the ego-strategy.And who knows what other cosmic punchlines await us?But to say its "useless" per se requires more knowledge of the world than I can lay claim to,or a very specific act of faith,which I havent been inspired to make,at least not yet .So thats why Im sticking with Mysterious,dogmatic fucker that I am

 

As to the coolness of the Matrix imagery,how did you find the 2nd & 3rd films in comparison to the first( a bit off topic there,but what the hell)?

 

Regards,Cloud.

[cloud recluse]

I know it's easy, and that all you have to do is drop the hard bit. Stop struggling.

And my own practice is becoming more effortless all the time, (especially just now with an awesome solstice vibe going on )

 

But.... it's harder to drop the hard bit than all you bliss-munchers think.

 

I'm not after cruxifiction. But look:

 

You start a practice. It works great in the areas where you have not much resistance. And you tend to avoid those areas where you do have much resistance. And your resistance will make up very very plausible reasons why you shouldn't even go there. Which is why much spiritual practice runs straight into a brick wall.

 

All I'm saying is that we have to go through the extremely painful process of giving up the bits we want to keep. It needn't cause us even a tiny bit of suffering, but it will be painful. "Enjoy the pain!" my sifu says, with a big grin.

 

I'm not addicted to suffering, I'm generally a lazy, happy bugger. I'm just trying to provide another side to the coin. I read a lot of posts on here which make me think that folks are practice-surfing, picking and choosing those approaches which appeal to the part of them that has to go. How's that for irony?

 

All I'm trying to say, really, is that if you keep playing, having fun, exploring the possibilities, manifesting bliss etc etc etc, it is indulgence of the small self and that self will run you in circles.

 

So much of what people say in response to this sort of argument is perfectly right and plausible IF AND ONLY IF you are already empty and unattached and big mind is leading your spontaneous expression. THEN you can groove with creation.

 

But we all have a huge amount of house-clearing to do before we get to that stage and I sincerely believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

 

It doesn't have to be tough, it just has to be done.

 

Cool Im pretty much for everything single thing youve got in here!Still dont like the term"detached" though.I think when you are really open,& have forsaken illusions ,then your REALLY attached for the first time,soaked in the Real.If you make the stage-specific strategy of Detaching from a particular illusion (which I TOTALLY support & advocate) into the goal itself,to BE "detached",you set up another dualism & hold back from the Full Contact thats waiting for you.So I would really prefer to describe the Goal as Full Contact,which ususlly necessitates detaching from specific illusions & compulsions,If you start using Detachment language to describe the goal itself,its possible to get onto all sorts of misery trips.

 

Ian,you must now have arrived at the conclusion that I have a petty obsession with terminology,but I am actually quite sincere in my opinion that Spiritual language desperately needs an overhaul.And I dont think you yourself seriously have a hankering for crucifixion( kinky sod if you do though,Im perfectly satisfied by your average spanking !).But the Detachment lingo does evoke crucifixion to me,whatever the intent of the speaker.

 

Thank you for having the good graces to not simply tell me to fuck off

 

Reagrds,Cloud.

 

 

 

Neimad will. Neimad does. But then I am talking for Neimad. What gives me that right? Because I am a head?

 

Minimoke gave up being himself long time ago. Long before he discovered Zen. Long before he discovered Tao. Everytime you ask a question you give up alittle of yourself for the common good, or "other" good.

 

Im still obsessed with Cloud Im afraid.I cant help it,hes so fucking sexy

[Trunk]

Saying an enlightened master has no desire is like saying hitting him with a metal baseball bat across the head won't hurt. It will. The distinction is wether the master creates suffering from these sensations, or is just empty with them

 

Couple of things, here.

One, I think its more effective to talk about enlightened states, rather than enlightened people. We all experience some small degree of enlightened, sometimes. Also saying someone is enlightened implies that they're in the enlightened state all the time .. and that's too much of an absolute to live up to. Anyway...

 

The more important point, is that I think there's still a lack of understanding of forward and reverse - in general, and in relation to light. (imo ->) In forward you got your vital winds flowing 'round & 'bout you, and you got your thoughts ridin' on them and as you experience you try and do "warding off stuff" with your winds & thoughts to try and stop the experience, or make it different. When good stuff happens, we do "yummm, gobble-onto" stuff with our thoughts, winds, subtle bodies - in relation to that yummy stuff. And we express ourselves. In reverse, the vital winds gather and concentrate in the central channel (that still center empty throughway), particularly in the deep-center. The bindu becomes illuminated and unifies with The Big Light. Upon that power, all the vital winds (and whatever else is laying around) are spontaneously drawn into the center and refined. The Big Light suffuses the centers: Radiance.

 

imo, fluency in the above is a lot about what our practices are leading to.

[Callan]

Ian,you must now have arrived at the conclusion that I have a petty obsession with terminology,but I am actually quite sincere in my opinion that Spiritual language desperately needs an overhaul.And I dont think you yourself seriously have a hankering for crucifixion( kinky sod if you do though,Im perfectly satisfied by your average spanking !).But the Detachment lingo does evoke crucifixion to me,whatever the intent of the speaker.

 

 

 

The image of the crucifixion would make a lot more sense if Jesus was depicted with a hard-on and a look of ecstacy on his face.

There is a link. It's different from being a victim or a martyr.

Or maybe he could be shown being spanked by Mary Magdalene.