Dangers of atheistic thinking

[Immortal4life]

Video discussing evidence that shows atheistic and materialistic beliefs cause people to be more dishonest, encourage lying, encourage stealing, and encourage selfishness-

 

On the flip side, studies recently published in the prestigious scientific journal "Science", show that religious ideas encourage honesty and generosity-

In a review published in Science last month, psychologists Ara Norenzayan and Azim Shariff discuss several experiments that lean pro-Schlessinger. In one of their own studies, they primed half the participants with a spirituality-themed word jumble (including the words divine and God) and gave the other half the same task with nonspiritual words. Then, they gave all the participants $10 each and told them that they could either keep it or share their cash reward with another (anonymous) subject. Ultimately, the spiritual-jumble group parted with more than twice as much money as the control.

 

Link to the journal Science-

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/322/5898/58

Review

The Origin and Evolution of Religious Prosociality

Ara Norenzayan* and Azim F. Shariff

 

We examine empirical evidence for religious prosociality, the hypothesis that religions facilitate costly behaviors that benefit other people. Although sociological surveys reveal an association between self-reports of religiosity and prosociality, experiments measuring religiosity and actual prosocial behavior suggest that this association emerges primarily in contexts where reputational concerns are heightened. Experimentally induced religious thoughts reduce rates of cheating and increase altruistic behavior among anonymous strangers. Experiments demonstrate an association between apparent profession of religious devotion and greater trust. Cross-cultural evidence suggests an association between the cultural presence of morally concerned deities and large group size in humans. We synthesize converging evidence from various fields for religious prosociality, address its specific boundary conditions, and point to unresolved questions and novel predictions.

 

Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia, 2136 West Mall, Vancouver, BC V6T 1Z4, Canada.

 

So I think the evidence shows that atheism should never be taken so far that it becomes materialism or nihilism.

[NeiChuan]

Video discussing evidence that shows atheistic and materialistic beliefs cause people to be more dishonest, encourage lying, encourage stealing, and encourage selfishness-

 

 

 

So I think the evidence shows that atheism should never be taken so far that it becomes materialism or nihilism.

 

But what should? What should be taken so far that it becomes more on materialism, or nihilism?

 

Nothing personal.. But I find it completely deplorable, whenever people generalize or say atheist people are much more likely to have no morals. Even to go further and say they have no compassion.

 

If someone were to have an outlook of violence or materialism they would lean toward that manner, whether or not they had religion. It would just take more time, and they'd use their belief in order to justify what they had done. Just like any other person would. They would turn to the closest safe route, which for many people is religion.

 

I myself am not an atheist, but when people say these things it makes me think the people saying them are dangerous. Being they are essentially saying without their religion they'd be dangerous. If they're already not dangerous even with their religion.

 

It's sad because what is often said is a normal human being cannot be a good one, essentially ever.

[RyanO]

Another argument atheists use, besides debating these conclusions directly, is that just because an idea is useful, doesn't mean it's true.

[Otis]

So I think the evidence shows that atheism should never be taken so far that it becomes materialism or nihilism.

I think that's a good conclusion. Neither materialism nor nihilism seem very useful to me (and I'm an atheist).

 

I think it makes a great deal of sense to radically reduce our amount of magical thinking. For me, it only makes sense to hold on to the minimal amount of non-empirical "squishy" beliefs. It is true that science cannot tell us everything about human existence, by any means. But I prefer starting from a scientific viewpoint, and venturing as little as possible into beliefs that I cannot support. I am not interested in fooling myself, so why should I take on beliefs that I cannot defend?

 

I have had, many times in my life, the "experience of God". But there is no way that I can see, to distinguish an actual God from that "experience of God". What makes God real, in that situation, other than my belief? Otherwise, it is all just esoteric ineffable sensation.

 

My argument is never to say "there is no meaning" or "there is no God". It is always to say: "we cannot ultimately know, so let us stop trying to be omniscient, and instead learn to embrace mystery." Let science do its thing, and not try so hard to fill in the gaps, not be too determined to be the ones "in the know".

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue answers, just not right answers. Every answer is just part of a chain, not an isolated causal agent, sitting in a vacuum. It's dependent origination, from the questioning point of view. Answers only illuminate a new viewpoint, not the right viewpoint. Science (parallel to the refinement of the self) never has an endpoint, never a final point of view. It is forever ahead, in the unknown.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Otis

[Jetsun]

I wouldn't draw that many conclusions from studies like that. Are the religious people being more honest and generous out of fear? are they brainwashed to behave that way like pavlovs dog? or does it come from a genuine place in their heart. Many religious people I know act compassionate and generous on the outside but they do that by supressing their dark side which then just comes out in far more dark and dangerous ways such as through extremist bigoted views against scapegoat groups or worse, that sort of brainwashing can often do more harm than good despite it's good intentions. Personally I prefer honesty over contrived compassion from people.

[manitou]

What a marvelous topic. Atheism. A wonderful topic.

 

I think there are a couple different atheistic mindsets. One type of atheist mindset is the one that has never bought into the concept of a separate god, and they get along just fine in life, the ones I've run into. After all, they too have the knowledge of kindness and compassion in their hearts and can surely tap into it anytime. To my way of thinking, I've met some really balanced atheists, real good people. Perhaps their folks were atheists.

 

There's another mindset which is often created at a young age to be different from the crowd, to rebel in some way. This is a type of atheism which comes without thought, only the need to feel different from the pack of Christians they're surrounded by.

 

A third type of atheism is the type we get down to at the bottom of self-awareness. There is often the awareness (often a sudden and traumatic awareness) that there is no separate god at all, that we're it, that we are One with the Tao...that the manifestations occur from within ourselves, and also manifest communally to create that which we see and sense. This is a traumatic awareness because the idea that there is a friendly old codger out there who is taking care of us is terribly comforting, and cutting this loose is like having the floor pulled out from under you.

 

I like the analogy of the Wizard of Oz. When Dorothy and the gang finally got to meet the Wizard, there was no wizard there at all. Lo and behold, it was merely man.

 

Atheism is very close to enlightenment.

Edited February 21, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Well,

 

I consider myself an Atheist. I also consider myself a Materialist. But by no means do I ever consider myself a Nihilist! (Afterall, I enjoy putting that label on Buddhists. Hehehe.)

 

And in aguement, I consider myself very honest and do not intentionally violate the rights of others.

 

Yes, I admit to being selfish. Me first. That's the way it is. But when I have excess I always share it with others who are deserving in my opinion. And yes, my opinion is the only one that matters in this regard.

 

So I suggest that to judge people according to the label they place upon themselves is a flaw.

 

Oh!, and BTW, I also consider myself a Taoist.

 

Be careful of labels. They are oftentimes very deceiving.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Marblehead

[Pero]

Theists are responsible for the most wars and deaths in human history. So I suppose I could conclude that being an atheist can lead to dishonesty while being a theist can lead to being a murderer. Laughable.

[3bob]

"God" is not limited to mind... thus any thoughts from or of the mind (for or against) are just that, thoughts of or from the mind. But the Pure and Free energy that flows through all thoughts is a primary and knowable aspect of an unknowable (via only mental means) "God".

 

Om

[Encephalon]

I too have a revulsion for generalizations like these. I've never been so completely flummoxed as I was when forced to listen to those who claim to know the mind of god.

 

But I also reject atheism on the grounds of cognitive hygiene; the human mind is simply too primitive to facilitate that kind of knowing, so I'll stick with Stephen Batchelor and agnostic Buddhism for now.

 

"When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion."

- CP Snow

[manitou]

"God" is not limited to mind... thus any thoughts from or of the mind (for or against) are just that, thoughts of or from the mind. But the Pure and Free energy that flows through all thoughts is a primary and knowable aspect of an unknowable (via only mental means) "God".

 

Om

 

 

I think it just boils down to the Intelligence underlying everything. and personally, I think it's friendly.

[InfinityTruth]

I completely disagree, I think it'd be interesting to know who funded that study(more then likely christians or some religious group). Oftentimes statistics and "facts" are just a way of manipulating people to thinking another way.

 

Christians and other paths are no more "Morally correct" then atheism. 75% of people in prisons claim Christianity. Does that make all christian thinking evil or dangerous?

 

With most practices people will practice what they want to practice, and delude themselves into believing they are practicing the rest. Example is how the Bible tells to "Judge not lest ye be judged." I asked some christians on a questions forum what they thought about this statement and some of the replies were complete bullshit. "Thats just a rule of thumb" "The bible doesn't say that" etc.

 

If you've ever encountered a really "Religious" Christian you will know what I'm saying when I say "They are the spawn of satan without even realizing it. They are exactly what they are against." They are some of the darkest energies on this whole damn planet and history in europe is evidence of that. Example is how they can label someone from a peaceful religion like wicca as satanic worship without knowing a damn thing about it. I used to have to go to church (never will I go again)and remember these missionaries coming in talking about how this certain college campus where everyone practiced wicca and how they were trying to convert them because "They were wrong." At the time I didn't know anything about wicca.

 

Fast forward a few years and I briefly practiced and studied wicca. I learned that what they were saying in the church was really ignorant. Wiccan's wouldn't worship the devil because that would bring that negative energy back to them(law of the three-fold return). Most don't even believe in the devil.

[Encephalon]

I completely disagree, I think it'd be interesting to know who funded that study(more then likely christians or some religious group). Oftentimes statistics and "facts" are just a way of manipulating people to thinking another way.

 

Christians and other paths are no more "Morally correct" then atheism. 75% of people in prisons claim Christianity. Does that make all christian thinking evil or dangerous?

 

With most practices people will practice what they want to practice, and delude themselves into believing they are practicing the rest. Example is how the Bible tells to "Judge not lest ye be judged." I asked some christians on a questions forum what they thought about this statement and some of the replies were complete bullshit. "Thats just a rule of thumb" "The bible doesn't say that" etc.

 

If you've ever encountered a really "Religious" Christian you will know what I'm saying when I say "They are the spawn of satan without even realizing it. They are exactly what they are against." They are some of the darkest energies on this whole damn planet and history in europe is evidence of that. Example is how they can label someone from a peaceful religion like wicca as satanic worship without knowing a damn thing about it. I used to have to go to church (never will I go again)and remember these missionaries coming in talking about how this certain college campus where everyone practiced wicca and how they were trying to convert them because "They were wrong." At the time I didn't know anything about wicca.

 

Fast forward a few years and I briefly practiced and studied wicca. I learned that what they were saying in the church was really ignorant. Wiccan's wouldn't worship the devil because that would bring that negative energy back to them(law of the three-fold return). Most don't even believe in the devil.

 

10-4.

 

I found this whole thing a little bewildering given that this guy teaches where i got my undergrad, up at Sonoma State U., which is jokingly referred to as Granola University. but it's also a campus known for the academic critical thinking movement and loosely connected with astronaut Alan Mitchell's life work for decades, some really cool stuff, so I honestly don't think they're gunning for thinking secular humanists but maybe purely materialistic hedonists who are fucking things up for the rest of us?

[Immortal4life]

Well, this thread has drawn more than twice as many views in less than a day than my thread on Parapsychology has in many days.

 

I told you when I first came here I would eventually become more aggressive and controversial

Edited February 22, 2011 by Immortal4life

[manitou]

Well, this thread has drawn more than twice as many views in less than a day than my thread on Parapsychology has in many days.

 

 

 

A thread on parapsychology? Darn, I missed it. Too much doctor stuff, probably. My husband just had back surgery. I would have loved your thread.

[Immortal4life]

I'm sure it must still be on the second page at least, check it out and leave a comment to revive it.

[Aaron]

In order to understand the results of these studies, one must also understand the nature of religion and it's purpose for society, be it Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, or Islam. Religions are indeed pro-social institutions in that they help society to define behaviors that are the norm. Most historians agree that religion as we know it, in particular institutions, began around 12,000 years ago, perhaps a bit earlier, when humanity stopped living as nomadic hunter gatherers and started to develop agrarian communities.

 

As these early societies began to grow there was a need to develop something that could define how people behaved so that people, that up until then were territorial and dependent on small family groups could live peacefully together in larger social groups. The easiest way to do this was to develop a social identity that revolved around their own spiritual beliefs. Before humanity began to live a rather sedentary life, they had little time to worry about things such as God or god's, or even morality and virtue, and instead were concerned with the daily struggle to survive. The difference in lifestyle allowed them to devote time to thinking about these things, so that concepts that up until that period of time were focused on their needs, such as Shamanism and it's understanding of how nature worked, gradually changed into something else, something that could define the needs of the urban lifestyle. In particular rules were required where there were few before.

 

Telling someone something is wrong that previously was completely acceptable isn't as easy as saying, "well we're not hunters anymore John, we're farmers and city folk, you can't just kill Bob because he took your sheep." What was needed was something that held a more significant deterrent, so what worked was saying something like, "John, you can't kill Bob because he killed your sheep, if you do you've committed murder and you'll spend eternity in the fiery pits of hell." That's a bit of a simplification, but overall what most academics agree upon.

 

Those people that did not acclimate to the new social dynamic were most likely either ostracized or indentured. What you're seeing today is the continuation of this ostracizing. We develop studies that prove the moral superiority of the pious and degenerate the unbeliever, in order to encourage assimilation. I'm certain they had no exit polls regarding the reason why these people chose to keep the money or give it away, rather the academics conducting the study made conclusions based on the social value of that act.

 

Without understanding exactly why one group decided to keep the money and the others didn't you can't be entirely certain about the motivation, it's all hypothetical, in the sense that one can know what to expect if someone is exposed to this stimulus, but not exactly the cause of this stimulus.

 

I would hypothesize that the reason has to do with several factors, including the culture that the participants were a part of as well as the background of the individuals. If these people were raised to identify with Christian values, then giving away ten dollars would most likely be seen as a charitable act, but also one might keep in mind it was only ten dollars. If they had given these people 1,000 dollars I think the numbers would've been much different. In the end what these people are doing is what was expected of them. The mere question, "Do you want to keep this money or give it to an anonymous participant?" Is a loaded question. If one keeps the money, what will the person asking think of them?

 

In fact the use of the word puzzle is meant to reinforce religious ideology. I think if you ran the same puzzle experiment and used words associated with compassion, kindness, charity, etc. that the results would've been about the same. Essentially all this proves is that religion after all this time, still serves essentially the same purpose it did 12,000 years ago, it's merely a reminder of what society deems we should be doing.

 

This doesn't mean that religion is good or bad, simply that at one point it was needed. I think the more important question is, is it still needed?

 

Aaron

 

edit- I also think it's kind of funny that I didn't get involved in this debate because I kept reading it as "The dangers of aesthetic thinking." Once I realized it was atheist thinking, that piqued my curiosity.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Twinner

[paulno]

You can find evil in followers of every widespread ideology known to man. Good too.

[Marblehead]

Well, this thread has drawn more than twice as many views in less than a day than my thread on Parapsychology has in many days.

 

I told you when I first came here I would eventually become more aggressive and controversial

 

And you must know that I am watching you. Hehehe.

[thelerner]

I wouldn't draw that many conclusions from studies like that. Are the religious people being more honest and generous out of fear? are they brainwashed to behave that way like pavlovs dog? or does it come from a genuine place in their heart. Many religious people I know act compassionate and generous on the outside but they do that by supressing their dark side which then just comes out in far more dark and dangerous ways such as through extremist bigoted views against scapegoat groups or worse, that sort of brainwashing can often do more harm than good despite it's good intentions. Personally I prefer honesty over contrived compassion from people.

 

Nice. Though I'm not sure I'd put one group over the other. People lie, to themselves, and to studies. A study like this is good for informing peoples prejudices, but ultimately, honesty is best taken on a person by person basis. The more we prejudge the more gullible we're likely to be.

[manitou]

If you've ever encountered a really "Religious" Christian you will know what I'm saying when I say "They are the spawn of satan without even realizing it. They are exactly what they are against."

 

 

+ 100 on this statement.

[Immortal4life]

And you must know that I am watching you. Hehehe.

 

 

I can handle all the scrutiny

[paulno]

With most practices people will practice what they want to practice, and delude themselves into believing they are practicing the rest. Example is how the Bible tells to "Judge not lest ye be judged." I asked some christians on a questions forum what they thought about this statement and some of the replies were complete bullshit. "Thats just a rule of thumb" "The bible doesn't say that" etc.

 

If you've ever encountered a really "Religious" Christian you will know what I'm saying when I say "They are the spawn of satan without even realizing it. They are exactly what they are against." They are some of the darkest energies on this whole damn planet and history in europe is evidence of that. Example is how they can label someone from a peaceful religion like wicca as satanic worship without knowing a damn thing about it. I used to have to go to church (never will I go again)and remember these missionaries coming in talking about how this certain college campus where everyone practiced wicca and how they were trying to convert them because "They were wrong." At the time I didn't know anything about wicca.

 

Fast forward a few years and I briefly practiced and studied wicca. I learned that what they were saying in the church was really ignorant. Wiccan's wouldn't worship the devil because that would bring that negative energy back to them(law of the three-fold return). Most don't even believe in the devil.

 

If by "Religious" Christians you mean hypocrites who worry more about degrading other faiths and sexual practices of others I agree.

 

However, there's many Christians (admittedly not the majority) who are in other nations and the forgotten inner city of our own nation (USA) helping out the poor, sick and needy. Probably, more Christians doing it by percentage than other faiths.

 

I myself did a run in a very fundamentalist, conservative Christian church. Probably, the worst mistake of my life. Lots of judgmental and greedy people. Sort of shocked me. But, I also met people who spend most of their time helping those who have fallen through the cracks of our society and other societies. Loving caring people I probably still wouldn't agree with on everything...However, couldn't call them evil.

 

After my time in the church I put way too much time and effort into bashing it/them. I finally realized that I was becoming what I hated. Bitter, judgmental, bigoted, and mean spirited. I sort of still struggle with it on a certain level today. But, try not to fall into that trap.

[InfinityTruth]

+ 100 on this statement.

 

Haha, thank you! I was hoping someone would like that comment statement.

[InfinityTruth]

If by "Religious" Christians you mean hypocrites who worry more about degrading other faiths and sexual practices of others I agree.

 

However, there's many Christians (admittedly not the majority) who are in other nations and the forgotten inner city of our own nation (USA) helping out the poor, sick and needy. Probably, more Christians doing it by percentage than other faiths.

 

I myself did a run in a very fundamentalist, conservative Christian church. Probably, the worst mistake of my life. Lots of judgmental and greedy people. Sort of shocked me. But, I also met people who spend most of their time helping those who have fallen through the cracks of our society and other societies. Loving caring people I probably still wouldn't agree with on everything...However, couldn't call them evil.

 

After my time in the church I put way too much time and effort into bashing it/them. I finally realized that I was becoming what I hated. Bitter, judgmental, bigoted, and mean spirited. I sort of still struggle with it on a certain level today. But, try not to fall into that trap.

 

Well of course. I'm definitely not saying I hate all Christians(the ones that try to control my freewill in any way). The ones that go out of their way to control people and have a problem with anything that isn't about the bible. Role-playing games are witch craft in some of their eyes. My mom listened to their propaganda on the radio one time and I've had to hide my love of world of warcraft ever since. She bought me the game but now she thinks its witchcraft...lol.

 

The moment they try to control your freewill they are not your friend.