[TTC Study] Chapter 25 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 25

 

 

John Wu

 

There was Something undefined and yet complete in itself,

Born before Heaven-and-Earth.

Silent and boundless,

Standing alone without change,

Yet pervading all without fail,

It may be regarded as the Mother of the world.

I do not know its name;

I style it "Tao";

And, in the absence of a better word, call it

"The Great."

To be great is to go on,

To go on is to be far,

To be far is to return.

Hence, "Tao is great,

Heaven is great,

Earth is great,

King is great."

Thus, the king is one of the great four in the Universe.

Man follows the ways of the Earth.

The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,

Heaven follows the ways of Tao,

Tao follows its own ways.

 

 

English/Feng

 

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

In the silence and the void,

Standing alone and unchanging,

Ever present and in motion.

Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.

I do not know its name

Call it Tao.

For lack of a better word, I call it great.

Being great, it flows

It flows far away.

Having gone far, it returns.

Therefore, "Tao is great;

Heaven is great;

Earth is great;

The king is also great."

These are the four great powers of the universe,

And the king is one of them.

Man follows Earth.

Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows the Tao.

Tao follows what is natural.

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

There was something formed out of chaos,

That was born before Heaven and Earth.

Quiet and Still! Pure and deep!

It stands on its own and does not change.

It can be regarded as the mother of Heaven and Earth.

I do not yet know its name:

I "style" it "the Way."

Were I forced to give it a name, I would call it "the Great."

"Great" means "to depart";

"To depart" means "to be far away";

And "to be far away" means "to return."

The Way is great;

Heaven is great;

Earth is great;

And the king is also great.

In the country there are four greats, and the king occupies one place among them.

Man models himself on the Earth;

The Earth models itself on Heaven;

Heaven models itself on the Way;

And the Way models itself on that which is so on its own.

 

 

 

Okay. Here I must state an opinion before I ask for questions and comments.

 

I know that all translations stste "king is great" in some form. I have no doubt that the original stated such also. However, I believe this to be a political convenience in order to stay out of trouble. The reason I say this is because line 17 states "Man models himself on the Earth." It does not say "The king models himself on the Earth."

 

Also, in Wayne Wang's translation, the last line reads, "Tao follows Tzujan."

 

 

Questions? Comments?

[manitou]

I agree, Marbles. I get hung up on The King is Great part of this section too.

 

The way I've reconciled it in my mind is to assume the writer is talking about the 'power' of the king being great. It would go along with the power of the Tao, the power of heaven, and the power of earth. I don't think he was talking about a king per se as being great.

 

And the power of a king is great, even if he's a lousy king. and even if someone is a lousy king, the Tao still works its way in to where it wants to go; ultimately the Tao's desired result (can we assume there is one??) will be achieved whether the king is a good one or not.

 

Also, I see this as the chapter that describes reversion pretty well. Lin Yutang's translsation on the reversion dynamic:

 

If forced to give it a name, I shall call it "Great."

Being great implies reaching out in space,

Reaching out in space implies far-reaching

Far-reaching implies reversion to the original point.

 

So I don't think they're saying Great in the same sense that we would say Great. Yutang implies a circular dynamic which is movement, not merely a descriptor.

Edited February 21, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

 

Also, I see this as the chapter that describes reversion pretty well. Lin Yutang's translsation on the reversion dynamic:

 

Agree. The concepts of cycles and reversion are seen throughout the TTC and Chuang Tzu.

[Mr. T]

howdy all,

 

i'm not sure why i haven't noticed this thread yet, but it is a good one. that style just bugs me, though...it is so hard to follow!! of course, here is the lin translation, offered for it's subtle differences from the others.

 

There is something formlessly created

Born before Heaven and Earth

So silent! So ethereal!

Independent and changeless

Circulating and ceaseless

It can be regarded as the mother of the world

 

I do not know its name

Identifying it, I call it "Tao"

Forced to describe it, I call it great

Great means passing

Passing means receding

Receding means returning

Therefore the Tao is great

Heaven is great

Earth is great

The sovereign is also great

There are four greats in the universe

And the sovereign occupies one of them

Humans follow the laws of Earth

Earth follows the laws of Heaven

Heaven follows the laws of Tao

Tao follows the laws of nature

 

 

if you happen to have this translation with the commentary, or you have tuned in to his discussions, he often reiterates how the character that he translates as "sovereign" refers to the self. we are kings of ourselves...our minds, actions, surroundings, etc. that idea makes a lot of sense to me, and is one of the reasons that i really like this translation. i remember when i first heard that idea and read some of the chapters containing that character, the lines seemed much different.

 

"tao follows the laws of nature" is something i get hung up on, personally...any input?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Mr. T

[manitou]

The last part of Lin Yutang's translation goes as follows:

 

Therefore:

 

Tao is Great,

The Heaven is great,

The Earth is great,

The King is also great.

These are the Great Four in the universe,

And the King is one of them.

 

Man models himself after the Earth;

The Earth models itself after Heaven;

The Heaven models itself after Tao;

Tao models itself after Nature

 

I have a couple comments. Marbles, in this version when he says 'These are the Great Four in the universe, And the King is one of them' it almost lends some credence to what you speculate. It's almost overkill here, sucking up to the king, lol? He really made a point of going out of his way to commend the King on his greatness not once, but twice. Also, could you tell me, what is Tzujan?

 

When it says 'Tao follows the laws of nature', I think it means that any law of nature is going to be the law of Heaven or the law of Man as well. The principle of reversion, for example, is found everywhere in nature; things are born, they take their rise, they die. So does Everything. Friendships, politics, kings, everything. The law of gravity (or the law of attraction) works, whether we're talking about natural phenomena or a love affair. To really observe nature, to learn its lessons and see the rhythm, is to understand the unfolding of life on every level.

 

Mr. T, I'm so glad you found this thread. Marbles and I were starting to act like an old married couple.

[Marblehead]

Hi Folks,

 

Nice compare/contrast going on here.

 

At this point I think that an inclusion of Wayne Wang's "Dynomic Tao" translation will really stir things up. Hehehe.

 

The last part of his reads:

 

Tao is immense; heaven is immense;

earth is immense, and

its compassion is also immense.

Among four immense in the universe,

its encompassing nature is most important.

Man follows earth.

Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows Tao.

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

Note that he did not say 'Man is great' or the 'King is great'.

 

In his notes to the phrase "its compassion is also immense." he states that the Chinese word could also be used to define "the leader of man who has compassion for all."

 

In his notes to Chapter 17 where he first used the word "Tzujan" he defined it as follows:

 

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason.

 

So Tao follows its own naturalness toward self-development. And isn't that what we should do as well?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Marblehead

[manitou]

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason.

 

Thank you for going to the trouble of finding this definition. Sounds like it is the cosmic blueprint that exists in the seed within.

Edited February 24, 2011 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Sounds like it is the cosmic blueprint that exists in the seed within.

 

Yeah. I accept the Big Bang Theory as fact. For me Tzu-Jan was within Singularity prior to the Big Bang and therefore everything resulting from the big bang has some of this Tzu-Jan in it. Yes, I consider Tao to have been Singularity (everything before there was anything), and, of course, everything still is Tao (but not necessarily the Way).

[Mr. T]

"Marbles and I were starting to act like an old married couple."

 

hahaaaaha...thanks for pointing out that last character. is the tzu in tzujan the same character as in "lao tzu"? i wish i had a ttc that is all chinese, even though i can't read it...i'm not sure why, but comparing similar characters is fun!

 

so to say that tao follows "nature", as in trees and stuff is incorrect? that does seem to make more sense...i would like to hear more about tzujan as a word as well.

[Marblehead]

"Marbles and I were starting to act like an old married couple."

 

hahaaaaha...thanks for pointing out that last character. is the tzu in tzujan the same character as in "lao tzu"? i wish i had a ttc that is all chinese, even though i can't read it...i'm not sure why, but comparing similar characters is fun!

 

so to say that tao follows "nature", as in trees and stuff is incorrect? that does seem to make more sense...i would like to hear more about tzujan as a word as well.

 

Hi Mr. T,

 

I rely on others to do the translation work for me so I really can't help with this. There are some members here who are 'into' that and I am sure they could help if they read your post.

 

But yes, I think that to directly associate the nature (Tzu-Jan) of Tao with the definable nature of things on earth would be an error. But that does not negate the importance of understanding the nature of things on earth.

 

You know, we can define the creation, growth and death of a tree but this is different from trying to define the creation, growth and death of Tao. And to purpose, Ha!, don't even try.

[dawei]

So Tao follows its own naturalness toward self-development. And isn't that what we should do as well?

I completely disagree with the idea that Tao follows anything; it is the principle itself (Zi Ran=It-self-so-ing). For it to follow something makes it a 'thing' itself and possibly coming after something else.

 

For this reason, I have hardly seen a translation I agree with the last line. Since the last four lines are parallel in construction they need to convey the same meaning but in most translations they fall apart on the last line but nobody seems to care.

 

Try this: reverse the order of the lines and say what you want about Dao. And see if the parallel structure applies throughout.

[Marblehead]

I completely disagree with the idea that Tao follows anything; it is the principle itself (Zi Ran=It-self-so-ing). For it to follow something makes it a 'thing' itself and possibly coming after something else.

 

For this reason, I have hardly seen a translation I agree with the last line. Since the last four lines are parallel in construction they need to convey the same meaning but in most translations they fall apart on the last line but nobody seems to care.

 

Try this: reverse the order of the lines and say what you want about Dao. And see if the parallel structure applies throughout.

 

Hi Dawei,

 

Valid arguement. And I cannot disagree with what you have said. The word "follow" is the trick word here. When Tao was in the state of Singularity there were no things for anything to follow. But everything that is still existed as potential in this state.

 

The lines in question of the Guodian strips translated by Henricks read as follows:

 

13 Humanity takes as its model the earth;

14 The earth takes as its model heaven;

15 Heaven takes as its model the Way;

16 And the Way takes as its model that which is so on its own.

 

So even here it is implying that "the Way" is a 'thing' with the use of the word "its".

 

The fact is, (IMO) the Way (Tao) just is. That is all.

 

When a star explodes, it explodes because it had too - there were no options. A different star might just burn out and become a brown dwarf because that is the only thing it could do.

 

And what I just said brings to mind the concept of living spontaniously. We do the only thing we can do when we live spontaneously. Or we do nothing.

[dawei]

I like how Hinton hands this chapter. Here are his last four lines:

 

Man abides by earth

Earth abides by Heaven

Heaven abides by Way

Way abides by occurrence appearing by itself -- Tr. Hinton

 

I modified Hinton's wording closer to my own thinking:

humanity abiding [as] earth [abiding].

earth abiding [as] heaven [abiding]

heaven abiding [as] dao [abiding]

dao abiding [as] natural [abiding]

 

 

But I also like the word "patterns" since it connotes generative dao:

humanity patterns [are] earth [patterns].

earth patterns [are] heaven [patterns]

heaven patterns [are] dao [patterns]

dao patterns [are] natural [patterns]

[manitou]

, and, of course, everything still is Tao (but not necessarily the Way).

 

 

Very nice distinction!

[Marblehead]

 

But I also like the word "patterns" since it connotes generative dao:

 

humanity patterns [are] earth [patterns].

earth patterns [are] heaven [patterns]

heaven patterns [are] dao [patterns]

dao patterns [are] natural [patterns]

 

Yes, I can deal with that. However, it might be difficult for a first reader (new to Taoism) to grasp the concept.

 

So abridging the four lines we would have:

 

Humanity's patterns are natural. (That is, if we are living our life in accordance with the Way.)

[Marblehead]

Very nice distinction!

 

Thanks.

[dawei]

Yes, I can deal with that. However, it might be difficult for a first reader (new to Taoism) to grasp the concept.

 

So abridging the four lines we would have:

 

Humanity's patterns are natural. (That is, if we are living our life in accordance with the Way.)

Exactly abridged !

 

The Guodian text is interesting since it does not repeat the characters, it has a repeat marker, but it makes me want to read it as:

 

humanity patterns earth

patterns heaven

patterns dao

patterns naturalness (it-self-so-ing)

[Marblehead]

 

The Guodian text is interesting since it does not repeat the characters, it has a repeat marker, but it makes me want to read it as:

 

humanity patterns earth

patterns heaven

patterns dao

patterns naturalness (it-self-so-ing)

 

Exactly. A natural flow. Consistent with my understanding of the Big Bang and the creation of the universe and all things.

 

(And even though I am a left-brain dude, I think there is an intuitively natural flow to it as well.)

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 25
1. 有物混成
2. 先天地生
3. 寂兮寥兮
4. 獨立而不改
5. 周行而不殆
6. 可以為天地母
7. 吾不知其名
8. 強字之曰"道"
9. 強為之名曰"大"
10. 大曰逝
11. 逝曰遠
12. 遠曰反
13. 故道大
14. 天大
15. 地大
16. 人亦大
17. 域中有四大
18. 而人居其一焉
19. 人法地
20. 地法天
21. 天法道
22. 道法自然


1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before the sky and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;
4. Independent but unchangeable;
5. Moving but never exhaust;
6. It may be the mother of the heaven and earth.
7. I don't know its name.
8. I'm reluctantly calling it "Tao".
9. I'm even more reluctant to have a name "Big" for it.
10.Big but dynamic;
11.Dynamic but far;
12.Far but reciprocating.
13.Therefore, Tao is great.
14.Sky is great.
15.Earth is great.
16.Human is great.
17.In space, there are four great's;
18.Thus human is one of them here.
19.Human follows Earth.
20.Earth follows Heaven .
21.Heaven follows Tao.
22.Tao follows its own nature.

Edited February 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I like your lines 16 and 22 very much. They speak to my understanding of the concepts being presented.

[flowing hands]

Ok, on Lienshan's suggestion I will try and explain this chapter.

 

Le Erh Xian Shi (Lao Tzu)came every night to me and he honored me with his teachings until the last chapter was done. This was a great honor to me, as the shaman in the Temple said that Lao Tzu never comes to anyone; it is unheard of. So I treasure this, beyond any price. In some sense I got the feeling that he altered the meaning in some areas for the modern world now. He taught me this some twenty four years ago. Whenever I read it, I think to myself what a brilliant rendition it is. Remember this is from the horses mouth, 600bc it was also slightly different and there appears to be no equivalent English words for some descriptions. Le Erh also told me that they had different meanings for some words then, compared to now.

 

So we have:

 

Something mysteriously formed, born before Heaven and Earth.

In silence and from within the void.

Alone and constant, ever present and flowing.

It is the Mother of the Ten Thousand Things.

I do not know its name, so I call it Dao.

For lack of a better word I call it great.

Being great it flows.

It nourishes the Ten Thousand Things far and away.

From whence it came I do not know.

Therefore the Dao is great.

Heaven is great.

Earth is great.

The Ten Thousand Things are great.

These are the four great powers of the Universe,

And one of them is the Ten Thousand Things.

Man follows the Earth.

Earth follows Heaven.

Heaven follows the Dao.

Dao is what is natural.

 

To start the ball rolling as they say, to answer Lienshan's question: Humans are made from the five elements of the earth, they are bound by those elements and the Earths environment, so they must follow the way of the Earth. (of course when humans don't that's when things go wrong)

Earth is made from the elements and energy from the universe or heaven so the earth follows the influences of the universe or heaven (today we realize that more than ever). The universe is bound by the Dao, so it must obey the laws that have created it (we are learning more about this also). The Dao is the great creator of all things, so it is itself and is natural. Remember, like the big bang we can't really know why and how things came into existence although it was explained to me. There lies another discussion!!

[Marblehead]

Okay. So I don't read chinese so I can't get into that part of the discussion.

 

However, the last line here: Dao is what is natural.

is consistent with my understanding of the flow of the thought.

 

I have seen this translated as: Tao follows itself. or, Tao follows its own naturalness.

 

To Dr. Wang's translation: Tao follows Tzujan

is no different than saying Tao follows its own naturalness.

 

So: Tao follows what is natural. Okay, change the word 'follows' with 'is'. Same difference.

 

Either way seems natural to me.

[lienshan]

He taught me this some twenty four years ago.

 

Man follows the Earth.

Earth follows Heaven.

Heaven follows the Dao.

Dao is what is natural.

Thanks for your great post

 

My approach is the Guodian bamboo slip version buried 312 BC exavacated 1993 and published 1998 that'll say later than your version. The Guodian bamboo slip version is in my opinion a first hand copy of Laozi's original rawmaterial manuscript kept in the library in the Chu capitol Ying. But let's talk chapter 25:

 

法 'follows' occurs in all four lines in all Tao Te Ching versions.

I read the character as pointing to the mohist 'three 法 'standards' or 'models':

The source 法 is that statements must have imperical basis through senses.

The use 法 is that statements must produce benefit for the state, clan or people.

The root 法 is the historical evidence provided by ancient sage kings.

That'll say I read Laozi as pointing at a fourth 法 not included in the mohist scheme.

 

So I wonder when reading your last line, because isn't 'Earth following Heaven' what is natural too?

 

That's why I read the four lines as one single arguementation of four components:

 

Man 法 Earth is to Earth 法 Heaven

 

like

 

Heaven 法 Dao is to Dao 法 by itself

 

'by itself' is how I understand the term 'ziran' in my native language, because what is natural?

Or what is not natural?

Edited November 23, 2011 by lienshan

[deci belle]

Man follows the ways of the Earth

Earth wouldn't be natural, but for following.

 

Earth is the center in the symbology of taoism's shamanic roots. It's color is yellow. It is the blonde woman, the go-between in the alchemy of fire and water, the creation of things. Heaven creates, whereas tao is followed by riding its virtue.

 

The second hexagram earth is emblematic of the mare. The mare can go anywhere the stallion can yet it continues by following. Man continues in the heaven of virtue by virtue of the quality of earth— not by heaven; this is the creative: heaven's action is in openness. This is the design of the celestial order.

 

The Virtue of the Receptive is immediate acquiescence, which is responding, not leading. The way of earth is in following. The heaven of following is in Virtue. Virtue is the offspring of the way. Those who know nonorigination receive its virtue and can thereby ride preternaturally independent within creation equal to the way in reality.

 

LaoTzu's description of the wordless should not be clung to word for word. How can then one operate freely and enter into the inconceivable?

 

Exchanging writ for rote, one seeks understanding, yet what of the marvelous is known to the mind of rote? If you don't know, what's to understand? If you do know, what's to understand? Seeking by words can be seen in this.

 

Who can exchange intellectual surety for the darkness of earth? Earth is comprised of six dark weak yin lines; passive, yet actively adaptable.

 

Enlightening activity is impersonally responding to ordinary affairs in selfless adaptivity to circumstances: this is the meaning of preternaturally independent within creation equal to the way in reality. This is an inconceivable operative freely adapting in broad daylight. How could one ever know this freedom by clinging to the words?

 

Man following earth following heaven following tao-in-itself=People who can follow potential then effortlessly ride the creative expression of the way.

 

Potential is the gold of earth. Self-refinement is picking the real out of the false. If not for the false, there would be no way to find the real. Picking the pure out of the polluted, one sees through circumstances without negating characteristics; following the virtue of the way, naturally one stands outside the ordinary cycles of creation. A king is great by virtue of the way, not in it's title of being. Which is named? Which is natural?

 

Tao is return; this is its nothing followed. Nonoriginated, it is only itselflessness~ by virtue of which, there is following. Therein is the expression of naturalness.

 

(ed note: change last line from "How can the tao follow its nature?" to "Tao is return; this is its nothing followed.")

Edited December 4, 2011 by deci belle

[Marblehead]

Interesting. You have added much more to that than I ever would have but I see no problems or conflicts.

 

Thanks for sharing.