[TTC Study] Chapter 25 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Tao isn't even "a thing" therefore it is beyond all limitations.

 

Yes, from a practical point of view (something I rarely use) I suppose it is fair to call a king great. And yes, heaven and earth are great. Hey!, without Earth we wouldn't be here. It is our home, we must respect it. And the heavens? The sun; an absolute essential!

 

But yeah, I would still prefer it read "the Ten Thousand Things" instead of "king" though as this would make it compatible with other chapters that speak to the Tao giving birth (the processes; Tzujan) to all things.

[lienshan]

But yeah, I would still prefer it read "the Ten Thousand Things" instead of "king" though

as this would make it compatible with other chapters that speak to the Tao giving birth (the processes; Tzujan) to all things.

 

The taoist school was in the second half of the fourth century BC divided into two fractions:

 

The majority fraction, headed by Shen Dao, claimed that the Tao could give birth to something

which obeys the law of gravitiation (even a clod of earth can't miss the Tao) (the objective Tao).

 

The minority fraction, headed by Laozi, claimed that Tao could not give birth to something

which obeys the law of gravitiation (Tao must be experienced through Te) (subjective Tao).

 

The philosophy of majority fraction is pure opportunism; everyting benefitting can be incorporated.

The Tao Te Ching is therefore incorporated; but with an editorial hand making the text pleaseing.

This has created a 2000 years old taoist tradition ... until the exavacation of the Guodian texts ...

 

Almost all taoists stick to the Received version because they actually prefer Shen Dao's taoism!

Laozi would probably have been banned from this nonsecteric forum within 24 hours

[Marblehead]

Almost all taoists stick to the Received version because they actually prefer Shen Dao's taoism!

Laozi would probably have been banned from this nonsecteric forum within 24 hours

Yeah, but then, for me, when I read something I compare it to what I know of the physical universe from the whole to the smallest item to see if there is consistency with what I have just read. Sometimes I encounter a new idea. I will most often resist the new idea until it has proven itself to be of value.

 

There are some things in the TTC that I simply ignore because it is not consistent with reality as I have observed it.

 

I will readily admit my ignorance of Shen Dao. Therefore I cannot honestly argue for or against.

 

"Giving birth" is just a metaphor anyhow.

 

Nothing can exist if it is impossible for it to exist at any point in time. And yes, I view time as linear as it applies to my life. The reversion of things and the cyclical aspect of time do not apply to my "real" life.

 

So singularity (Tao) gave birth to One (manifestation), One gave birth to Two (Chi and Mystery [potential]), Two gave birth to Three (don't ask), and Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.

 

Scientifically, (in my understanding) singularity released itself (Big Bang) (for some unknown reason) and hydrogen and pure energy were born. Hydrogen and pure energy created helium. Hydrogen and helium combined to create stars. Stars gave birth to all other elements.

 

Different words, same concepts. The Ten Thousand Things occur naturally - kings do not.

[manitou]

The minority fraction, headed by Laozi, claimed that Tao could not give birth to something

which obeys the law of gravitiation (Tao must be experienced through Te) (subjective Tao).

 

 

Does it not seem that gravitation is nothing more than mutual attraction, or "Love" as it pertains to humans? My guess is that the Tao emits Love (gravity) and attracts all to stay on the planet rather than float around in space. At the center of our planet is a ball of fire, a piece of the sun. The sun (and henceforth the ball of sun inside the earth) attract all things, keep them anchored, attract one thing to the other, create love between two people.

 

Agreed that Tao must be experienced through Te. I don't know if a lot of people understand this.

[flowing hands]

LOL, Flowing Hands. I'll bite on this one. Are we not the All (Heaven, Earth, Dao, 10,000 things) when we finally get down to the Essence of self? I'd like to hear your distinction.

 

I was referring to the miss-translation of a King being one of the great powers in the universe, which obviously they are not.

 

A king or queen are only such because of the lack of self cultivation; ie they have usually got to this position through means that would not be acceptable to us today.

 

A sage king of course would not know that they were a ruler, for a sage king is unknown and practices wu wei. A sage king is a treasure to people and the ten thousand things for their influence stretches far and wide. But they still are not one of the four great powers. A sage King is still subject to the Heavenly forces, the Earthly forces, the Dao and the ten thousand things.

 

Try your teeth on that !!!

[Marblehead]

Try your teeth on that !!!

I find myself agreeing with you too much recently. Hehehe.

[dynamictao]

My current translation is: (But I may change "infinite" to "Great Oneness" as 大一.)

 

 

We do not know its name and call it Tao.

We reluctantly describe it as infinite. [1]

With infinity, it can sustain;

With sustaining, it can reach far;

Reaching far, it can return all (back into Oneness).

Tao is infinite; heaven is infinite; and earth is infinite.

Their Unifying Power is also infinite.[2]

Among the four infinities,

The Unifying Power is the most important.

[1] The word 大 may mean great, large, or infinite. We use a modern concept of infinite to show how Tao is described in the Chuang-tzu, “so great that it has no outside.”

[2] For Unifying Power, see Chapter 16.

 

 

 

Note on Chapter 16, I have

 

"The Unifying Power (王 wang) is a character that unifies three horizontal lines (heaven, man, earth) with one vertical line (as oneness). According to 說文, Wang (王) is where all under heaven belong to, or return to, for guidance: 王, 天下所歸往也. Wang (王) as the Son-of-Heaven (天子) is the divine mediator of man and heaven. Wang is the one who is thoroughly intimated with Te. 《管子·兵法篇》通德者王。董仲舒曰:“古 之造文者,三画而连其中谓之王。三者,天、地、人也;而参通之者,王也。”《说文》王,有天下曰王。帝与王一也。. See also Chapter 25 and 66."

 

BTW: The Kindle Version of my book "The Logic of Tao Philosophy" will be free for download from Amazon on June 1 and 2, 2013 (California Time Zone). It is a major revision.

Edited May 18, 2013 by dynamictao

[lienshan]

I was referring to the miss-translation of a King being one of the great powers in the universe, which obviously they are not.

 

There are tthree head components to consider when traslating this chapter:

The first is that one was unexpressed

The second is that 大 X means great X while X 大 means large X

The third is that nonsense means that the subject and the predicate are reversed = a rethorical question

 

天大地大 the large sky and the large ground ... read straight litterally with this alternative:

The great one of the sky is the great one of the ground.

 

The last one relates to "the remoteness"/"the Milky Way" and "the dam failure"/"the Yellow River"

that'll say to the duality of "Water" in the "The Great One gave birth to Water" cosmology.

 

The character is called Tao.

My powerful one becomes a name called a great one.

The great one is called a dam failure.

The dam failure is called a remoteness.

The remoteness is called a return.

The great one of the sky is the great one of the ground.

 

道大 Is the great one Tao?

The large Tao ... is nonsense so this line must be a rethorical question!

 

王亦大 Likewise the great one is the King?

The King is also large ... is too nonsense so this line is too a rethorical querstion!

 

域中有四大而王居一焉 The empire has four great ones and the King is one of them.

 

人法地 Is the ground the attraction of the men?

Men attract the ground ... is nonsense so this line must be a rethorical question!

 

地法天 Is the sky the attraction of the ground?

The ground attracts the sky ... is nonsense so this line must too be a rethorical question!

 

天法道 Is Tao the attraction of the sky?

The sky attracts Tao ... is nonsense so this line must too be a rethorical question!

 

道法自然 Tao attracts itself.

 

 

I read/translate the text as if Tao was the only one to Laozi expressed in these two lines:

 

My powerful one becomes a name called a great one.

Tao attracts itself.

[Marblehead]

Hey!, Dynamictao! I like that!!! Thanks for sharing.

[manitou]

I was referring to the miss-translation of a King being one of the great powers in the universe, which obviously they are not.

 

A king or queen are only such because of the lack of self cultivation; ie they have usually got to this position through means that would not be acceptable to us today.

 

A sage king of course would not know that they were a ruler, for a sage king is unknown and practices wu wei. A sage king is a treasure to people and the ten thousand things for their influence stretches far and wide. But they still are not one of the four great powers. A sage King is still subject to the Heavenly forces, the Earthly forces, the Dao and the ten thousand things.

 

Try your teeth on that !!!

 

 

Yes, darling - I have read your distinction and my teeth are in full agreement.

[lienshan]

The Big Bang,The matter/dark matter/dark energy, Heaven, Earth (the scientists)

 

The Great One, The Milky Way/Yellow River, Heaven, Earth (Ta Yi Sheng Shui)

 

Heaven, Earth, The Dao, The ten thousand Things (Flowing Hands/Li Erh)

 

Tao, heaven, earth, The Unifying Power (dynamictao)

 

 

There are in this thread four Great explanations of the four Great ones.

They do all have Heaven and Earth in common.

The "singularity" has four different names yet refer to the same "oneness".

 

But the fourth Great one (put in bold) seems to be very different at first sight?

[Marblehead]

But the fourth Great one (put in bold) seems to be very different at first sight?

Yeah, that was the only problem I had. In fact, I had that problem the very first time I read (don't remember the translator) Chapter 25. It still hasn't been resolved for me (except maybe Dynamictao's above) so I pretty much just ignore it.

[dawei]

The Big Bang,The matter/dark matter/dark energy, Heaven, Earth (the scientists)

 

The Great One, The Milky Way/Yellow River, Heaven, Earth (Ta Yi Sheng Shui)

 

Heaven, Earth, The Dao, The ten thousand Things (Flowing Hands/Li Erh)

 

Tao, heaven, earth, The Unifying Power (dynamictao)

 

 

There are in this thread four Great explanations of the four Great ones.

They do all have Heaven and Earth in common.

The "singularity" has four different names yet refer to the same "oneness".

 

But the fourth Great one (put in bold) seems to be very different at first sight?

 

I came to the same conclusion about Heaven and Earth and the comparison of the Four. Previously, I have not really applied cosmology to this chapter in order to make sense of it but the first thought that jumped to my mind is how 'heaven and earth are common' in almost all cosmologies. Most often, there is a singularity.

 

I want to re-look at it from this angle to see what emerges but I already know that "man" will definitely not emerge as that does not show up in cosmology. Off the top of my head, I would say that the "ten thousand" emerges most of the time.

[dawei]

My current translation is: (But I may change "infinite" to "Great Oneness" as 大一.)

 

 

 

Their Unifying Power is also infinite.[2]

Among the four infinities,

The Unifying Power is the most important.

[1] The word 大 may mean great, large, or infinite. We use a modern concept of infinite to show how Tao is described in the Chuang-tzu, “so great that it has no outside.”

[2] For Unifying Power, see Chapter 16.

 

 

Note on Chapter 16, I have

 

"The Unifying Power (王 wang) is a character that unifies three horizontal lines (heaven, man, earth) with one vertical line (as oneness). According to 說文, Wang (王) is where all under heaven belong to, or return to, for guidance: 王, 天下所歸往也. Wang (王) as the Son-of-Heaven (天子) is the divine mediator of man and heaven. Wang is the one who is thoroughly intimated with Te. 《管子·兵法篇》通德者王。董仲舒曰:“古 之造文者,三画而连其中谓之王。三者,天、地、人也;而参通之者,王也。”《说文》王,有天下曰王。帝与王一也。. See also Chapter 25 and 66."

 

I definitely agree with seeing "Da" as "Da Yi". It is in ancient texts this way, and there was a Da Yi cult of sorts going on in Chu which took hold later in the Han Dynasty period.

 

As for Wang as 'unifying power': This is an interesting rendering. I can't find notes I used to have about a similar usage like this but will keep looking.

 

I notice four uses of 王 in the Guodian chapters; 25, 32,37,66. 32 and 27 as (Hou Wang) 侯王. In 25 and 66 , without Hou. How do you translate chapter 66 opening with Wang ?

[dust]

My GD translation

 

 

又壯蟲成 Something immense gave way to all form;

先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth,

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless,

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things;

未智亓名 Its name is unknown,

字之曰道 We refer to it as the Way;

吾為之名曰大 Were I forced to, I’d name it Great;

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

遠曰反 Going far meaning to return;

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

 

 

I see that the bit about the King has been mentioned. It is unclear to me whether or not this was something the original author wanted to write about or, as others have suggested, a political convenience.

 

It does seem like it was just slipped in there so as to keep someone out of trouble. "Heaven, Earth, the Way.. oh, and the King, he's also one, I guess..."

Certainly that's been (and still is?) the done thing in many kingdoms around the world.

 

Other than that, it's a very cool chapter, with some wonderful Chinese, and though I'm sure I haven't done it justice I hope the meaning shows through.

Edited October 21, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Yes, I like the chapter. Yes, I still have a problem with the king being in there instead of just man. But then, I do agree that the king was included so that the writer would not loose something important, like his head.

[dust]

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far

 

 

A note on the translation here: the character that I have replaced with 筮 is a fairly complex thing, made up of 音 欠 水 臼, and like 筮 apparently meant "divination"

 

I figured that divination is/was basically a structured way of guessing at stuff... or, in nicer terms, "guess" is the word we would use nowadays.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but back then a larger percentage of the people believed in divination so it would surprise or disappoint me too much if it were the word of choice.

 

Some of the translations I have read went way over the line with word usage. Again, this is why understanding the concepts is more important than the individual words. (But I do enjoy the work you guys are doing with the wordage because you frequently have to include talking about the people and their culture and that only adds to the actual translations.)

[dawei]

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

I really like how you kept the last four lines parallel. That is my main beef with most translations but yours does it in a way I have not seen

 

 

I see that the bit about the King has been mentioned. It is unclear to me whether or not this was something the original author wanted to write about or, as others have suggested, a political convenience.

 

It does seem like it was just slipped in there so as to keep someone out of trouble. "Heaven, Earth, the Way.. oh, and the King, he's also one, I guess..."

 

I think because 'man' is in the final lines that 'king' simply is a bit of 300 BC Chu Political correctness.. and as suggested, a longevity method

[Harmonious Emptiness]

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

遠曰反 Going far meaning to return;

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;

 

I think there is sort of a circular meaning here with "going far means returning." It's a very deep phrase on so many levels.

 

Also, "great 大" seems to refer to spatial greatness as well, especially with the references to "distance 遠."

 

筮曰遠 divination by yarrow stalk is ever-reaching

遠曰反 ever-reaching (also) means returning (to that which is most near)

 

 

Then there was

 

"国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;"

 

I don't think "central 中" would be used only to say "this." It seems to continue talking about "returning" to the center.

 

 

国中又四大 At the center of the nation are also the Four Greats

而王居一安 Where the king dwells居 in oneness一 and tranquility安

 

 

This is always translated "and the king is one." Why???

 

Why leave out 安 tranquility???

 

When 居 dwelling is used in the Dao De Jing it's pretty much always referring to dwelling in a state of being. So when we have "dwelling oneness tranquility" why, for the love of mercy, does everyone just omit such a doctrinally important word from the sentence???

 

I need to go center myself in the Four Greats again and find my inner sovereign. This is driving me to no end..

[Taoist Texts]

Then there was

 

"国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;"

 

I don't think "central 中" would be used only to say "this." It seems to continue talking about "returning" to the center.

 

 

国中又四大 At the center of the nation are also the Four Greats

而王居一安 Where the king dwells居 in oneness一 and tranquility安

 

 

This is always translated "and the king is one." Why???

 

Why leave out 安 tranquility???

 

When 居 dwelling is used in the Dao De Jing it's pretty much always referring to dwelling in a state of being. So when we have "dwelling oneness tranquility" why, for the love of mercy, does everyone just omit such a doctrinally important word from the sentence???

 

I need to go center myself in the Four Greats again and find my inner sovereign. This is driving me to no end..

excellent questions, people never ask questions nowadays. no questioning - no understanding. This is a very diffucult passage, I dare say. Previous translations have no continuity, they just string togeter 4-5 weird statements with no rhyme nor reason.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[dust]

Why leave out 安 tranquility???

 

Because here, it's not in the sense of peace. The character has had many meanings, and at the end of a sentence:

 

用於句尾，有疑問的語

"Used at the end of a sentence, implying doubt"

 

You're right to question my interpretation of this.. and I should've questioned it more.

 

It's a question, not a statement. Which is a bit better, actually.

Edited October 22, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dust]

excellent questions, people never ask questions nowadays. no questioning - no understanding. This is a very diffucult passage, I dare say. Previous translations have no continuity, they just string togeter 4-5 weird statements with no rhyme nor reason.

 

You're surely not suggesting I never ask questions?

 

I thought my constant questioning was beginning to annoy people..

[Taoist Texts]

My GD translation

 

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

I totally dig these 2 lines

[dust]

I'm going away for a week, and hope to find this all having been questioned quite thoroughly in my absence