[TTC Study] Chapter 25 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Taoist Texts]

You're surely not suggesting I never ask questions?

no i was impugning those 'official' translators, not you, you know whose books are on the shelf in any barns&nobles, right next to the self-help section;)

[dust]

I know, it was more of a joke. Though I dare say I didn't ask enough with regard to this passage... and I did mean that about going away for a week, and that I hope to find these questions neatly answered on my return

[Taoist Texts]

Have a fun trip!

in the meantime...


有物混成，先天地生。There is a thing formed from chaos, born before Heaven-and-Earth.
寂兮寥兮，獨立而不改，周行而不殆，可以為天下母。
Utterly silent, utterly rarified, self-sufficient and immutable, it circulates without end, due to that it can serve as the matrix of Under Heaven.
吾不知其名，字之曰道，強為之名曰大。
We do not know its name, call it Dao, tenuously name it the great.
大曰逝，逝曰遠，遠曰反。
This greatness first expands near, then expands far, then circulates back.
故道大，天大，地大，王亦大。
Thus the greatness of Dao first creates the greatness of the Heaven, then the greatness of the Earth and that of the king.
域中有四大(夫)，而王居其一焉。
Although in a state there are also Four Great Ministers but the king is unique, residing separately as One (with Dao).
謂王者人靈之主，萬物系其興亡也。
For king is called the master, the numinous man, all things depend on him for life or death.
人法地，地法天，天法道，道法自然。
When it is so then the people will obey Earth (and the king), Earth will obey Heaven, Heaven will obey Dao, and Dao will obey naturalness.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

You're surely not suggesting I never ask questions?

 

I thought my constant questioning was beginning to annoy people..

Question everything. Don't be bashful.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Excellent translation TT ^^.

 

Because here, it's not in the sense of peace. The character has had many meanings, and at the end of a sentence:

 

用於句尾，有疑問的語

"Used at the end of a sentence, implying doubt"

 

You're right to question my interpretation of this.. and I should've questioned it more.

 

It's a question, not a statement. Which is a bit better, actually.

 

I think I had seen somewhere before that this was the case, that it was used to end a sentence. That or it just seemed to be the case, sort of like "and the king is one (lets be in peace on this statement)."

 

But, as mentioned, I can't help seeing the presentation of characters with almost NLP types of effect/suggested meanings that are very much intended to be understood by those who are open to them. At least, in order to translate all of the meanings into English it seems necessary to look at them in this way.

 

I hope you could tell that I was half joking in my rather pun-like response. It was almost "pun-ishing" wasn't it. Oh ho! ha ha.

[flowing hands]

My GD translation

 

 

又壯蟲成 Something immense gave way to all form;

先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth,

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless,

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things;

未智亓名 Its name is unknown,

字之曰道 We refer to it as the Way;

吾為之名曰大 Were I forced to, I’d name it Great;

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

遠曰反 Going far meaning to return;

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

 

 

I see that the bit about the King has been mentioned. It is unclear to me whether or not this was something the original author wanted to write about or, as others have suggested, a political convenience.

 

It does seem like it was just slipped in there so as to keep someone out of trouble. "Heaven, Earth, the Way.. oh, and the King, he's also one, I guess..."

Certainly that's been (and still is?) the done thing in many kingdoms around the world.

 

Other than that, it's a very cool chapter, with some wonderful Chinese, and though I'm sure I haven't done it justice I hope the meaning shows through.

The first thing, I don't like to be discouraging, but really 'playing' with translations may be fun but one is loosing the real meaning and teachings. Lao Tzu couldn't give a toss about the King, emperor etc. and would only see such positions as unnecessary. Daoists were and are great believers in people themselves ruling themselves and not a single person lording over them. So no 'King' would ever be mentioned in this way by Lao Tzu. Try again and remember the King is not one of the great powers of the universe. Secondly never believe any written ancient text other than the original, the Chinese were well know to alter the meanings of writings to suit their lord and masters and to alter words to make their job easier!

[Marblehead]

Yea!!! Flowing Hands and I agree on another concept.

[dust]

The first thing, I don't like to be discouraging, but really 'playing' with translations may be fun but one is loosing the real meaning and teachings.

 

I'm just trying to ascertain whether or not there might be more to the teachings than most English translations make us aware of

 

I understand that we have quite different ideas about it all, though, which I actually think is quite a good thing

 

 

Lao Tzu couldn't give a toss about the King, emperor etc. and would only see such positions as unnecessary. Daoists were and are great believers in people themselves ruling themselves and not a single person lording over them. So no 'King' would ever be mentioned in this way by Lao Tzu. Try again and remember the King is not one of the great powers of the universe. Secondly never believe any written ancient text other than the original, the Chinese were well know to alter the meanings of writings to suit their lord and masters and to alter words to make their job easier!

 

I would absolutely love to agree with you, but the fact remains that the character 王 refers and has always referred to the king / monarch / leader (originally, the greatest warrior in the land), and that these lines appear in all versions of the text (as far as I'm aware...?)

 

What else would you have it translated as?

[flowing hands]

 

I'm just trying to ascertain whether or not there might be more to the teachings than most English translations make us aware of

 

I understand that we have quite different ideas about it all, though, which I actually think is quite a good thing

 

 

 

I would absolutely love to agree with you, but the fact remains that the character 王 refers and has always referred to the king / monarch / leader (originally, the greatest warrior in the land), and that these lines appear in all versions of the text (as far as I'm aware...?)

 

What else would you have it translated as?

As I have said we have no original text. I posses the original in English as it was taught to me and certainly 'King'is not mentioned in this chapter and it does not make sense to say that the 'King' is one of the four powers in the universe. Li Erh with great insight would not stoop to such blindness as this, especially after all his other great perceptions. Originally there were about 150 verses, but like many things what we have today, it is someone else's collection of 81, making a Daoist number. Of course Li Erh did not call his verses DDJ, he called it something else and there was a verse with this included. An intellectual is most likely to have collected the verses and made up the title. A Daoist is most likely to have limited it to 81. I strongly suspect that the verses are not in the same order as Li Erh wrote them either. Remember also that many characters of ancient Chinese may have differing meanings to what we know today and I know some characters being esoteric are lost.

I will give you an example. My spiritual name 'Flowing Hands' is the nearest English equivalent, but the original characters were to do with a Daoist adept who moved the hands in a way that was controlled and influenced by the energy generated within. Now Daoist adepts were called this when they reached a high stage in their energy cultivation. So my name would be........ Flowing Hands at the end of my first name. As I am a shaman its fitting to be called shaman...........s. So the word that now does not exist once mean't something like 'Flowing Hands'. So I say to you if you want to waste your time it is entirely up to you, you are no nearer the original as the earth is near the sun and you are just fooling yourself that you have some understanding of the text and its implications as to what it was trying to say. This is the main reason why Li Erh taught me his true teachings. It is hard enough to grasp the true meaning of the original and its many implications and facets, let alone trying to grasps that which is wrong in the first place.

[Marblehead]

But then, if we don't study it and try to understand it better and therefore closer to what Li Erh presented to the world we would be doing ourself a disfavor.

 

I do agree with you regarding the use of the word "king" but most translations use this translation so why shouldn't we ask why this word was used and question if it was in the original?

[flowing hands]

But then, if we don't study it and try to understand it better and therefore closer to what Li Erh presented to the world we would be doing ourself a disfavor.

 

I do agree with you regarding the use of the word "king" but most translations use this translation so why shouldn't we ask why this word was used and question if it was in the original?

Trouble is I can't write it in Chinese! But we do have it in English! So we don't need to translate that which is corrupted. Why was king used.. easy answer; if you don't add this you will lose your head in copying it and the work will be burned by the order of the King, if its not in there.

[Marblehead]

Trouble is I can't write it in Chinese! But we do have it in English! So we don't need to translate that which is corrupted. Why was king used.. easy answer; if you don't add this you will lose your head in copying it and the work will be burned by the order of the King, if its not in there.

Yes, that has always been my argument regarding the word "king".

 

I don't read Chinese either so I am dependent upon those who can/do to discuss the Chinese characters and their possible translation. I enjoy others' translations just as much as I enjoy reading your version.

 

I have my opinions regarding many of the chapters. I enjoy getting feedback to my opinions because it allows me to test the logic I used in forming my opinion.

[dawei]

Yes, that has always been my argument regarding the word "king".

 

Then just say IT !!!

[Marblehead]

Then just say IT !!!

Hehehe. I am sure I have done so elsewhere.

[dust]

Well, leaving out the king bit, because I think most of us agree that it was put in out of necessity rather than desire..

 

 

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

 

I'd like to note the last bit: 自然 is made up of 自, self, and 然, which is (was) a pictograph of meat roasting over a fire, and came to mean, among other things, "correct", "reasonable", and "like so".

 

自然 meaning, then, in any original, literal senses, self-cooking, self-correcting, or self-so

 

It's now translated as "nature", and in modern Chinese used in almost exactly the same way as we use the word "nature" in English. For example, 自然界 -- nature, the natural world

 

 

 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=nature&searchmode=none

 

The Proto-Indo-European root of our English "nature" meant "to give birth", and later in Latin (natura) "course of things; natural character, constitution, quality; the universe"

 

 

 

With one of the meanings of 法 being "method" (originally, a method of hunting), I think it's fair to translate as

 

 

人法地 Man is (a method) of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is (a method) of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are (a method) of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is (a method) of itself (self-so, self-correcting)

[Taoist Texts]

Well, leaving out the king bit, because I think most of us agree that it was put in out of necessity rather than desire..

“Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else.”

― George Orwell, 1984

[Marblehead]

I still like:

 

Man follows Earth,

Earth follows Heaven,

Heaven follows Tao,

And Tao follows Tzujan.

 

And really, Tzujan is the Way of Tao.

 

(Tao is an anarchist. Hehehe.)

Edited October 31, 2014 by Marblehead

[dust]

Could you point me towards a topic/post where your, and perhaps others', views on the concept of 自然 / tzujan have been elaborated on?

Edited October 31, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Could you point me towards a topic/post where your, and perhaps others', views on the concept of 自然 / tzujan have been elaborated on?

Have a look on Page 1 of this thread, Post #6.

 

I have seen a couple other translations use the word "Tzujan" but I think Wayne does a nice job at a short definition of the word/concept.

 

Somewhere on the internet there is a very nice paper by someone with a very thorough discussion of "Tzujan".

[dust]

Have a look on Page 1 of this thread, Post #6.

 

I have seen a couple other translations use the word "Tzujan" but I think Wayne does a nice job at a short definition of the word/concept.

 

Somewhere on the internet there is a very nice paper by someone with a very thorough discussion of "Tzujan".

 

Aha! Yes, I remembered having read it, but couldn't think where. Thanks.

 

 

 

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason.

 

As far as I understand anything, the physical world is what there is. Something that isn't "of the physical world" doesn't exist. So to me, Tzujan as defined above doesn't mean much. Aren't you of a similar persuasion MH?

 

Thanks to Protector, I no longer know what "spiritual" even means, but to me the idea of "spiritual" naturalness has very little meaning without considering the physical.

 

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It has, however, a different layer than our English idea of nature. It is a process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so.

 

That would be my version .... or just "self-so"

[Marblehead]

As far as I understand anything, the physical world is what there is. Something that isn't "of the physical world" doesn't exist. So to me, Tzujan as defined above doesn't mean much. Aren't you of a similar persuasion MH?

 

Thanks to Protector, I no longer know what "spiritual" even means, but to me the idea of "spiritual" naturalness has very little meaning without considering the physical.

 

 

That would be my version .... or just "self-so"

Hehehe. You caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting the question.

 

Yes, as a Materialist, I must agree and state that the physical universe is all that exists. "Exists" is going to be a tricky word here.

 

Tzujan, for me, is basically equal to the "laws of physics". The "laws" "exist" but are not things in and of themselves. Tzujan (the laws of physics) is what caused the Big Bang and the beginning of the Ten Thousand Things.

 

I almost have to consider Chi (energy) to be an aspect of Tzujan. This is because energy is what causes things to "become", to "self-develop".

 

And then, Wayne suggests that "yo" was born out of "wu". That is, the physical was born out of the spiritual. And really, all matter (the physical universe) is born out of hydrogen and helium.

 

Now, when I speak to this concept I normally use the words Manifest for the physical universe and Mystery (instead of spiritual) for everything that is not yet manifest. In other words, potential.

 

But yes, to keep it simple, "self-so" is sufficient.

[dust]

I get it. And agree, I think. At least, I like the parallels you've drawn.

 

Words are tricky. A term like "mystery" will inevitably conjure up hocus pocus and woo-woo to many (Western scientific) people, even though by it one means something as Western-scientific as "potential"

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but by using "Mystery" one never has to attempt to explain what Mystery is because, afterall, it is a Mystery.

[dawei]

Well, leaving out the king bit, because I think most of us agree that it was put in out of necessity rather than desire..

 

 

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

I still like this variation

 

I'd like to note the last bit: 自然 is made up of 自, self, and 然, which is (was) a pictograph of meat roasting over a fire, and came to mean, among other things, "correct", "reasonable", and "like so".

 

自然 meaning, then, in any original, literal senses, self-cooking, self-correcting, or self-so

 

have a read:

 

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

 

 

 

With one of the meanings of 法 being "method" (originally, a method of hunting), I think it's fair to translate as

 

 

人法地 Man is (a method) of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is (a method) of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are (a method) of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is (a method) of itself (self-so, self-correcting)

 

I explored 'method' and other Fa meanings...

 

And I researched the origin of Fa... 灋

 

This character contains the elements zhi ‘unicorn,’ plus qu ‘to get rid of,’ plus shui ‘water.’ Originally, in the Western Zhou character, the element qu meant ‘to get rid of evil-doers,’ while the character shui was included to indicate ‘impartiality of judgement’ because water always reaches its own level. By the Han Dynasty however, due to the standardization of the Chinese script, the characterfa no longer contained a recognisable goat-unicorn zhi element. As a result, the identity of the mythic goat-unicorn element became obscured. Thus people may have thought that the element qu was directly related to the element shui, and concluded that this combination meant ‘to get rid of water.’

 

The bronze character 灋(fa) was carved initially at the bronze vessel named DaYuDing(大盂鼎). in Zhou (周) dynasty. 灋(fa) was composed of 去, 水, 廌. 去 related to sacrificial rites. 水 meant sacred place. 廌 meant totem. The shape of 灋 bears a close parallel to that of (天水) 訟卦 which is hexagram 6 among 64 hexagrams in the Book of Changes(周易).

 

☰(天) was a hieroglyphic symbol of Heaven. ☵(水) was a hieroglyphic symbol of the Milky Way. 訟 was a worship or worshipper. The bronze character 灋(fa) and hexagram 6, ( 天水 訟卦) has a common image that a worship was performed by a certain tribe at the sacred place. The bronze character 灋(fa), therefore, means that a certain tribe, a “廌” worshipper, performs a ancient rites “大社” at the sacred place “水”.

 

The broad meaning of fa as standards or law may have been derived from the radical ‘water’: ‘Fameans xing, which levels [affairs or persons] like water’. The second opinion is that fa originally meant fei 廢 (to abandon, stop or forbid), from which it derives the meanings of legal codes as ‘forbidding regulations’.

[dust]

I still like this variation

Thank ye sir

 

 

I'm going to reply about ziran but leave the bit about "fa" for tomorrow as it's getting late and there's a lot there to think about!

 

have a read:

 

http://www.confuchina.com/05%20zongjiao/Lao%20Zi's%20Concept%20of%20Zi%20Ran.htm

 

Well, I agree, to an extent.... I was in agreement with the apparently forthcoming conclusion ("It is the natural way of everything's becoming itself"), though he subsequently lost me a little! I don't think he needed so many words to explain the concept!

 

With the idea of positive and negative versions of ziran... is this necessary? If we agree that it means "self-so", what else do we need to know? I'd think that self-so implies both positive and negative, at once...?