[TTC Study] Chapter 25 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dawei]

I'm going to reply about ziran but leave the bit about "fa" for tomorrow as it's getting late and there's a lot there to think about!

 

 

Well, I agree, to an extent.... I was in agreement with the apparently forthcoming conclusion ("It is the natural way of everything's becoming itself"), though he subsequently lost me a little! I don't think he needed so many words to explain the concept!

 

With the idea of positive and negative versions of ziran... is this necessary? If we agree that it means "self-so", what else do we need to know? I'd think that self-so implies both positive and negative, at once...?

 

He juxtaposes Zi-Ran (Self-so) with Wu-wei... which is quite interesting because most find them on the same side, not opposites !

 

In a nutshell:

 

Ziran is the active self-becoming aspect

Wu Wei is the negative self-becoming aspect

[Marblehead]

 

 

He juxtaposes Zi-Ran (Self-so) with Wu-wei... which is quite interesting because most find them on the same side, not opposites !

 

In a nutshell:

 

Ziran is the active self-becoming aspect

Wu Wei is the negative self-becoming aspect

Oh, I so much don't like the word "negative" in that last sentence.

 

In the line above you have "active". Why shouldn't the last line have "restive"?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What about

 

人法地 Man is led by the Earth

地法天 The Earth is led by the Heavens

天法道 The Heavens are led by Dao

道法自然 Dao is led by It's own nature

 

 

法 basically means "following the water," used to say "law" etc., but I see what you mean, Dawei, about the sense of "Man is of the tribe of Earth (and thus follows its ways)..."

[Riyue]

My GD translation

 

 

又壯蟲成 Something immense gave way to all form;

先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth,

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless,

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things;

未智亓名 Its name is unknown,

字之曰道 We refer to it as the Way;

吾為之名曰大 Were I forced to, I’d name it Great;

大曰筮 A greatness we can only guess at,

筮曰遠 To have to guess, it surely goes far,

遠曰反 Going far meaning to return;

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大 This realm has four Greats,

而王居一安 And the King is one;

人法地 Man is of the Earth,

地法天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天法道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道法自然 The Way is of itself

 

It is interesting to compare the existing transcriptions of guodian-laozi with the original characters.

Maybe one decides to stop using any transcriptions for guodian-laozi.

You can find a link to the guodian-laozi in original characters at this website:

http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/index.html

What some people read as king in vertical line 11 / 12 (at this website) - can be understood as a connecting above and below in human.

[dust]

He juxtaposes Zi-Ran (Self-so) with Wu-wei... which is quite interesting because most find them on the same side, not opposites !

 

In a nutshell:

 

Ziran is the active self-becoming aspect

Wu Wei is the negative self-becoming aspect

 

OK. That's cleared it up a bit. Even more simply, if one practices wu wei, one is allowing zi ran to happen?

 

 

 

What about

 

人法地 Man is led by the Earth

地法天 The Earth is led by the Heavens

天法道 The Heavens are led by Dao

道法自然 Dao is led by It's own nature

 

 

法 basically means "following the water," used to say "law" etc., but I see what you mean, Dawei, about the sense of "Man is of the tribe of Earth (and thus follows its ways)..."

 

3 different people, 3 different ideas about "fa" and its etymology!

 

I think that none of these ideas are wrong. The character/word has an astounding network of meanings. I like the idea of "led" -- and I like both "Dao is led by its own nature" and "Dao is led by itself"

 

 

 

It is interesting to compare the existing transcriptions of guodian-laozi with the original characters.

Maybe one decides to stop using any transcriptions for guodian-laozi.

You can find a link to the guodian-laozi in original characters at this website:

http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/index.html

What some people read as king in vertical line 11 / 12 (at this website) - can be understood as a connecting above and below in human.

 

Thank you for the link -- actually, the alice-dsl page is already constantly open on my laptop!

I've been using the original slips, along with a number of online dictionaries and transcriptions, in order to figure out a transcription which I feel looks and feels closer to the original written text.

 

What you see in my translations here on TTB are the closest I can get with the characters we have available/recognizable by our internet browsers.

[dust]

I explored 'method' and other Fa meanings...

 

And I researched the origin of Fa... 灋

 

This character contains the elements zhi ‘unicorn,’ plus qu ‘to get rid of,’ plus shui ‘water.’ Originally, in the Western Zhou character, the element qu meant ‘to get rid of evil-doers,’ while the character shui was included to indicate ‘impartiality of judgement’ because water always reaches its own level. By the Han Dynasty however, due to the standardization of the Chinese script, the characterfa no longer contained a recognisable goat-unicorn zhi element. As a result, the identity of the mythic goat-unicorn element became obscured. Thus people may have thought that the element qu was directly related to the element shui, and concluded that this combination meant ‘to get rid of water.’

 

The bronze character 灋(fa) was carved initially at the bronze vessel named DaYuDing(大盂鼎). in Zhou (周) dynasty. 灋(fa) was composed of 去, 水, 廌. 去 related to sacrificial rites. 水 meant sacred place. 廌 meant totem. The shape of 灋 bears a close parallel to that of (天水) 訟卦 which is hexagram 6 among 64 hexagrams in the Book of Changes(周易).

 

First off, excellent! interesting origin, and I'm absolutely changing all instances of 法 in my transcriptions wih 灋 !

 

Secondly... this is entirely different to my previous understanding of fa. Very interesting.

 

One of my usual sources states

 

将鹿群从山林驱赶到河岸开阔地带进行围猎的古代猎鹿术

Driving a herd of deer from the mountains to the riverbanks of an open area and picking them off, in an ancient deer-hunting technique

 

I wonder if both understandings could be true? That the character meant something about removing evil to some in the Western Zhou, but hunting to others. Because they both seem quite plausible.

 

 

I cannot quite make out the exact components of the GD version of the character except for water at the bottom, though it seems that both 去 and 廌 / 鹿 have been simplified or replaced -- certainly, the 口 of 去 is not discernible. It doesn't look like any example version of the character I've found elsewhere.

 

All this to say.. I think that any interpretation of 法 now is probably quite acceptable...

[Riyue]

I cannot quite make out the exact components of the GD version of the character except for water at the bottom, though it seems that both 去 and 廌 / 鹿 have been simplified or replaced -- certainly, the 口 of 去 is not discernible. It doesn't look like any example version of the character I've found elsewhere.

 

If you enlarge the picture of line 13-16 you can see the parts better:

twice the old version of shang 上= above

+

vertical line crossing horizontal er4 二 : poar two + old version of da 大 = big

+

shui3 water in horizontal version 水

_____

interaction for balancement between above and below

 

compare the version of fa3 at guodian #57 - vertical line 8

[dust]

I would agree, except for a couple of concerns

 

The GD version of 上 has an extra line below (as seen, for example, in ch.66):

 

上

`

 

but, assuming that the 法 here was using a simplfied version of 上... why have it twice?

 

And from the components, how did you come to the meaning that you came to? (interaction for balance)

 

I mean, if we have 上 representing "above", what represents "below"?

 

And then, how do you explain the difference between this and the similar character in ch.57?

 

I hope these questions don't seem too ignorant or pedantic... I'm just trying to be thorough

Edited November 1, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

I wonder if both understandings could be true? That the character meant something about removing evil to some in the Western Zhou, but hunting to others. Because they both seem quite plausible.

I think it was Keightley

http://ieas.berkeley.edu/faculty/keightley.html

 

who in one of his articles pointed to identical terminology for hunting, warfare and punitive expeditions in Shang.

[Riyue]

I would agree, except for a couple of concerns

 

The GD version of 上 has an extra line below (as seen, for example, in ch.66):

 

上

`

 

but, assuming that the 法 here was using a simplfied version of 上... why have it twice?

 

And from the components, how did you come to the meaning that you came to? (interaction for balance)

 

I mean, if we have 上 representing "above", what represents "below"?

 

And then, how do you explain the difference between this and the similar character in ch.57?

 

I hope these questions don't seem too ignorant or pedantic... I'm just trying to be thorough

 

In guodian-laozi one can find different versions for characters that are transcribed in the same way.

shang 上 with a second line beneath and without... (#17-s1z2 with - and #41-s1z1 without)

xia 下 occurs with a second line above and without...

- it seems to me that the writer likes to point to 二

in the meaning of tian (stroke above ) and di (stroke below) .

---

why occurs shang twice in the character fa3? don't know - may be because of the two ideas below. - ? to support the idea of polarity..?.

---

The "Below" in fa3 is given by the horizontal water. - a flowing water is always down at the earth...

---

da4 - a man with stretched arms and straddle-legged points for me to balancement. It is obvious that this man has a better balance. - the meaning "big" derives from this too: a man has enlarged himself by this .

---

just thoughts...

I think that fa3 in #57 depicts the same - the difference is just as one writes in English one letter in different ways sometimes.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Riyue

[dust]

why occurs shang twice in the character fa3? don't know - may be because of the two ideas below. - ? to support the idea of polarity..?.

 

Do you not think it likely that the top component is 屮 ?

 

See the next chapter after 25, part of ch.64: the 9th character, transcribed as 兆, but with grass on top; or in ch.55, the character resembling 恕, composed of grass, woman, heart

 

To me, the top of our writer's 法 actually looks a lot like his "grass" radical

 

 

---

The "Below" in fa3 is given by the horizontal water. - a flowing water is always down at the earth...

 

I thought this is what you meant. Yes, could be.

 

 

da4 - a man with stretched arms and straddle-legged points for me to balancement. It is obvious that this man has a better balance. - the meaning "big" derives from this too: a man has enlarged himself by this .

 

Interesting. OK.

 

 

just thoughts...

I think that fa3 in #57 depicts the same - the difference is just as one writes in English one letter in different ways sometimes.

 

I think that it's very confusing! Sometimes he appears to be making mistakes when he writes, but sometimes he appears to be changing things deliberately.

 

I'd love for you to have a look at my question here:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/16446-ttc-study-chapter-2-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=589471

and see what you make of it

[dawei]

OK. That's cleared it up a bit. Even more simply, if one practices wu wei, one is allowing zi ran to happen?

 

I think they are two sides of a coin and are not meant to be divided too much in thought

 

BUT... is one is 'practicing' then it cannot be wu wei... I see it like: wu wei occurs because Ziran is in control...

 

First off, excellent! interesting origin, and I'm absolutely changing all instances of 法 in my transcriptions wih 灋 !

 

Secondly... this is entirely different to my previous understanding of fa. Very interesting.

 

One of my usual sources states

 

将鹿群从山林驱赶到河岸开阔地带进行围猎的古代猎鹿术

Driving a herd of deer from the mountains to the riverbanks of an open area and picking them off, in an ancient deer-hunting technique

 

I wonder if both understandings could be true? That the character meant something about removing evil to some in the Western Zhou, but hunting to others. Because they both seem quite plausible.

 

If you look at the word origin/graphs then the 'animal' aspect is seen.

 

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E7%81%8B

 

I had tracked this back to an old story. Here are my notes:

 

According to one of the earliest Chinese dictionaries, law (fa-法 or anciently as 灋), means criminal punishment. A legendary judge during Shun and Yu’s time was said to have a horned animal by his side which he would ask to hit a suspect on hearing a case or to point out the guilty party. This animal, called Zhi (廌), is in the right side of the ancient ‘fa’ character.

 

The Book of Rites describes a unicorn like animal: 'Chief among four-footed beasts. It resembles the stag but is larger. It has a single horn, the tip of which is fleshy, indicating that it is not used in battle. There are five colours in the hair of its back - red, yellow, blue, white and black - and the hair of its belly is dark yellow. It does not tread any living grass underfoot nor eat any living creature. It shows itself when perfect rulers appear and when the Tao of the King is accomplished.' That is to say, when the ruler's work is well done and his time has come, the Ch'i-lin arrives to bear his soul to Heaven.’

 

The three parts of the ancient character for law breaks down as: Equality, Justice and Punishment. The western godess of justice is blindfolded and carrying a scale in one hand and a sword in another. This comes from the Roman godess of justice also blindfolded and sometimes with a scale and sword, and other times with an axe and torch. Although the eastern and western view of law appears similar, the east focuses on punishment while the west focuses on rights and justice. The first greek lawgiver is said to have written his law in with blood, not ink. While law is often justified by the need for social order, the ancient texts also attribute the institution of law as a sign of decline.

 

When a Rong envoy was asked by the Duke of Qin how they [as barbarians] could possibly govern themselves the envoy stated that starting with the Yellow Emperor and his social reforms of music, rites, and law that disorder began; that it was better to live in simplicity without such institutes. A ancient text found amongh the Ma Wang Dui tomb texts included the Jing fa (Canon of Law) and it opens with, “The Dao produces Law”. The Warring State period Huang-Lao philosophy espoused a close-knit relationship between Dao and Law; that Law is the pattern or model of Dao. Almost prophetically, law and punishment in future dynasties were often ruthless and would bring about the fall of a dynasty.

[dust]

If you look at the word origin/graphs then the 'animal' aspect is seen.

 

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E7%81%8B

 

Oh, yes, I wasn't saying that there's no animal aspect. Just wondering about the animal itself. What it is.

 

It looks, to me, like the animal depicted has 2 horns/antlers. As the Qilin is supposed to have only 1, I still wonder if it wasn't, originally, meant as a deer, but later perhaps changed to mean a Qilin

 

 

According to one of the earliest Chinese dictionaries, law (fa-法 or anciently as 灋), means criminal punishment. A legendary judge during Shun and Yu’s time was said to have a horned animal by his side which he would ask to hit a suspect on hearing a case or to point out the guilty party. This animal, called Zhi (廌), is in the right side of the ancient ‘fa’ character.

 

Knowing the ancient propensity (all over the world) for creating crazy tales about what went on in the past, making up stories about chimeras and unicorns etc, could it be that the original character 灋 , which depicted a deer, was adapted/taken to fit with this story about the Qilin? Or that someone made the story up to explain the character, as at that point they'd forgotten the original meaning?

 

 

The three parts of the ancient character for law breaks down as: Equality, Justice and Punishment. The western godess of justice is blindfolded and carrying a scale in one hand and a sword in another. This comes from the Roman godess of justice also blindfolded and sometimes with a scale and sword, and other times with an axe and torch.

 

Is this referring to 法 ?

[dawei]

Is this referring to 法 ?

 

灋(fa) was composed of [three parts]: 去, 水, 廌.

 

去 related to sacrificial rites. 水 meant sacred place. 廌 meant totem.

[dust]

As far as justice, equality, punishment..?

 

水 equality (water benefits all things, after all)

廌 punishment (Qilin hitting a criminal!)

 

?

[Riyue]

Do you not think it likely that the top component is 屮 ?

 

Please have a look at

http://www.zdic.net/z/14/kx/4E04.htm

[dawei]

As far as justice, equality, punishment..?

 

水 equality (water benefits all things, after all)

廌 punishment (Qilin hitting a criminal!)

 

?

 

去 - justice (to go or leave; but here it means 'to get rid of' something... the wrong done)

[dust]

Please have a look at

http://www.zdic.net/z/14/kx/4E04.htm

 

Yes. I agree that it's possible.

 

However, thanks to your input, though it was not what you intended, I'm now convinced that it's 艹

 

This is my final attempt at convincing you, I promise. Compare these 3. If you're not convinced, we can call it a draw

 

[Riyue]

Yes. I agree that it's possible.

 

However, thanks to your input, though it was not what you intended, I'm now convinced that it's 艹

 

This is my final attempt at convincing you, I promise. Compare these 3. If you're not convinced, we can call it a draw

 

恕.png兆.png法.png

 

If you take the guodian-character for 莫 you have four 屮 surrounding the sun, which look exactly like the two 丄 of fa3.

Could it be - that guodian does not differentiate here?

Both characters have an information in common:

The plant has as essential feature the growing upwards: given by the vertical stroke in center. - And it has the horizontal stroke pointing to earth.

And 丄 has this element as well.

It is the influence of the above... of the sun in interaction with below (earth, water) which makes the plant grow.

It is the influence of the above (sky, sun)... in interaction with below (earth, water) which mediates the processing of natural laws.

[dust]

The plant has as essential feature the growing upwards: given by the vertical stroke in center. - And it has the horizontal stroke pointing to earth.

 

And 丄 has this element as well.

It is the influence of the above... of the sun in interaction with below (earth, water) which makes the plant grow.

It is the influence of the above (sky, sun)... in interaction with below (earth, water) which mediates the processing of natural laws.

 

Aha! Very nice. Perhaps we can say it's both.

 

So we have upwards-reaching grass on top, water on the bottom, and a man (great) at middle-right.

 

I'm still not clear on what the 二 +丨 might represent..?

[Riyue]

Aha! Very nice. Perhaps we can say it's both.

 

So we have upwards-reaching grass on top, water on the bottom, and a man (great) at middle-right.

 

I'm still not clear on what the 二 +丨 might represent..?

 

My interpretation is interaction between sky - earth

or

Qi-flow between poles

earth - sky vice versa

qian - kun

kan - li

xun-zhen

dui - gen

centering...

[dust]

Some, including MH (and FH?) might prefer this. I've changed 安 into 咹 to better represent the GD character: it appears to be used to indicate query or supposition.

 

 

又壯蟲成 Something great gave way to all form;

先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth,

敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless,

可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things;

未智亓名 Its name is unknown,

字之曰道 We refer to it as the Way;

吾為之 Were I forced to,

名曰大 I’d name it Great;

大曰筮 A greatness we can only divine,

筮曰遠 To have to divine, it surely goes far,

遠曰反 Going far meaning to return;

天大地大道大王亦大 Heaven, Earth, the Way, and also the King, are Great;

国中又四大咹 Does this realm have four Greats?

而王居一咹 Of which the King is one?

人灋地 Man is of the Earth,

地灋天 The Earth is of the Heavens,

天灋道 The Heavens are of the Way,

道灋自然 The Way is of itself

 

 

Also noted that the ran of ziran / tzujan on the slips does not have fire on the bottom, so actually just looks like animal flesh... self-fleshing?

Edited November 4, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

You done good. You kept your head and kept the process consistent.