karma-- superstition

[...]

I frequently hear how karma is somehow responsible for our spiritual advancement.

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I once read on this board an explanation of karma, and it has reallyshaped how I would view karma. It was said that karma is basically neurosis that creates ties in the energetic body. (for example, you do something you believe to be bad, and it causes you turmoil, the consequence is a knot in the energetic body.. something that will need to be undone for spiritual advancement.)

 

I think this is a beautiful explanation.

 

but there are people who claim that karma is a universal principle, and something that is even applicable from past-lives. (bill bodri comes to mind.)

 

"heaven and earth treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs... Therefore, the sage treats the myriad creatures as straw dogs."

Karma as a universal moral law seems, to me, ridiculous. It seems that the basis of such 'karma' is based on such things as being 'good', or 'bad', or 'virtuous', or 'non-virtuous'. But hasn't taoism, if not modern philosophy, taught us that such things are... a lie? such things as 'good' and 'evil' are simply notions created by the minds of men-- and therefore hardly applicable in the grand sense of the 'objective universe'?

 

 

It seems to me that 'universal karma' is mere superstition-- with no real experiential proof anywhere in sight. why are weso bent on being persuaded by it? (especially Bodri, I would like to know... becuase he talks of karma and merit like it is all that is needed.)

[Yoda]

The Buddha said not to accept anything that you can't test yourself, but then there's this idea of karma that relies on either channelled sources or yogic superpowers to discern.

 

What's a girl to do?

 

The Buddhists use cartography as an analogy... Through direct experience you can and have validated that mass marketed maps are relatively accurate in getting from point A to point B one's whole life. Or that the evening news tends to be accurate at least in terms of geography as well. So you learn to trust these sorts of authorities. Once this trust is established, one might never have been to NYC, but one can bet their bottom dollar that it exists with more than just faith... with absolute, certain knowledge.

 

So test your authorities that you are drawn to on matters that you can verify.

 

I, personally, don't dig Bodri's personality so I'm not really drawn to his karma claims to really test it in the first place, so most of this sort of testing comes down to inborn preferences... wherever that comes from...

[Smile]

It was said that karma is basically neurosis that creates ties in the energetic body. (for example, you do something you believe to be bad, and it causes you turmoil, the consequence is a knot in the energetic body.. something that will need to be undone for spiritual advancement.)

 

I think this is a beautiful explanation.

Instead of just looking at yourself, try to see ALL the parties involved. For example, you steal money and feel wonderful- now see how the person feels you stole it from. Then maybe you will see the energetic ties that could develop and prevent you from accomplishing certain things.

[...]

I don't understand smile.

 

If I were to steal a bunch of money from someone, and felt ok, or even good about it, then I don't see how this will create a karmic knot in the self.

 

If I was responsible for much emotional turmoil in the victim, and they developed a big karmic knot from the event... I still don't see how that would effect me-- (if I still didn't care.)

In fact, one could say that it is the victims OWN fault for their emotional turmoil. Sure, I was the CAUSE for it.. but it is their own lack of wisdom and their attachment that creates their karmic knot.

 

unless there is some sort of spiritual connection between us-- like there is between lovers-- then I just don't see how they could possibly effect me.

[cloud recluse]

....

Karma as a universal moral law seems, to me, ridiculous. It seems that the basis of such 'karma' is based on such things as being 'good', or 'bad', or 'virtuous', or 'non-virtuous'. But hasn't taoism, if not modern philosophy, taught us that such things are... a lie? such things as 'good' and 'evil' are simply notions created by the minds of men-- and therefore hardly applicable in the grand sense of the 'objective universe'?

....

 

Im not so sure that Daoism has no 'morality' per se.Certainly it doesnt have the punitive karma model that so many people espouse,but neither is it necessarily antinomian.I think Daoism has something much subtler.It very much gets to the spirit behind formal moralities.The Dao,in its immediate consequence for us,is very much about the empowerment that arises from honouring phenomenal existence & releasing self-obsession.Not to earn"good karma" in a hypothesised future life,but to enter fully into life Now,in this moment!

 

Understanding peoples condition as 'straw dogs',hypnotised robots,sleepwalkers,whatever metaphor you want,doesnt mean degrading them or dismissevely exploiting them.They are still an arising of the Dao & still honoured as such.Stealing from them is degredation,not honour,& not caring about it is just solidifying a detached ego in a sociopathic direction.This stance of apathy & egocentricity severs you from the Daos Vitality (as well as possible social consequences) right here & now,not in some speculative future .Without the Vitality that comes from embracing & honouring phenomena,you just wither up into a 'straw dog" yourself,but now with less chance of surmounting your self created isolation!

 

Having met 2 actual Psychopaths in my life,I can say that,despite all their 'succesful' manipulations & abuses of others,they were profoundly miserable & disturbed in their success.

 

In a way,obsessions with "my Karma" seems to me to be another way of creating an ego,another self obsession.Everything around you becomes a means to 'get' good karma,a metaphysical payoff,another form of exploitation but now in a "spiritual" wrapping. The "Karma Accountant" is just as big an exploiter as the callous theif!!!! Both of them are refusing the Daos Vitality,& poisoning the world around them.The theif is just more obvious.

 

Certainly the Dao is flexible & adaptive when it comes to morality,but its not amoral for us here & now.Its just free of petty legalism,& inspired by a positive vision of contact & involvement with life,instead of being driven by a morbid fear of Bad Karma inflicted on a seperate "soul".

 

Anyhow,thats my self-righteous preaching done for the evening.God I love it

 

Regards,Cloud.

Edited June 18, 2006 by cloud recluse

[neimad]

the dimension we are currently existing in is a collective creation created by all of us inhabiting it.

 

i think karma is based upon perception, that is how you percieve an action to be influences whether or not (and the degree to which) it influences your conscience (consciousness?). you think you did something bad, you create some tension you hold onto.

 

now being a collective creation, we are all stuck in the same perspective (the matrix/samsara). therefore as a whole we all contribute to shaping this reality..... thus we have collective karma.

 

we want liberation, so we want to break through of our own karma (all the trauma we have had as a lesson to learn... blah blah blah) but also through the collective karma (breaking the conventional perception of the earth.... obliterating reason... blah blah blah).

 

so collective karma is what holds the matrix as it is and influences the direction it takes, which on an individual level influences the external perception of reality.

 

or something like that...

 

of course i am just talking nonsense

[cloud recluse]

I suppose I feel that "Karma' is usually another pseudo-explanatory concept dreamed up by the ego to avoid a sense of the unknown,of mystery,or to justify the sufferings of others ("They must be harvesting their bad karma") when we feel too overwhelmed & small to help them.

 

Or not.

Cloud.

 

By the way Neimad,out of curiosity,what does your name mean,how did you arrive at it?It intrigues me

Edited June 18, 2006 by cloud recluse

[neimad]

I suppose I feel that "Karma' is usually another pseudo-explanatory concept dreamed up by the ego to avoid a sense of the unknown,of mystery,or to justify the sufferings of others ("They must be harvesting their bad karma") when we feel too overwhelmed & small to help them.

 

Or not.

Cloud.

 

By the way Neimad,out of curiosity,what does your name mean,how did you arrive at it?It intrigues me

 

i agree that the word 'karma' and the way it's commonly thrown around appears exactly that.... a silly concept used to allow us the sin of pity.

 

however upon reflecting how everything is connected within the entire universe..... how our thoughts shape our reality.... so on..... i can begin to see how karma is like this interconnecting stuff between us all (and ourselves - cos we are just a micro of the macro).

 

but yeah, i dunno.... whatever

 

 

neimad.

spell it backwards and you have the name that appears on my legal documents (although all in capitals on those things.... the strawman! the imaginary 'data' persona listed on all 'legal' files).

 

some young spinout i met once we just started calling each other by our names backwards and i kinda liked it.

 

now things are different.... i truly no longer care about, nor have much in the way of feeling towards, my name.... any name that is, even the ones i make up myself.

[freeform]

Karma as a universal moral law seems, to me, ridiculous.

 

I completely agree!

 

The 'moral law' interpretation of karma would require some kind of human lawyer-god sitting in the sky with his charts and calculators working out how 'bad' or 'good' we have been... sounds pretty man-made to me.

 

The way I interpret how Smile sees it - it's like the concept of 'where do I end and another human begins?'... we're all interconnected so if you do something harmfull to someone, you're doing something harmfull to yourself... but I still cant get arround the idea of 'who the hell decides what is harmfull?'

 

In many cases life is not so black and white... what if you steal some money from someone and it causes them to contact long-lost relatives and re-establish a powerfull, healing bond that they had lost for so many years. What if you steal money from a ridiculously rich guy who hardly gives a fuck, but the money goes to save 4 of your starving children. IMO life does not work in a cause and effect sort of way... there are far too many variables of possibility... it seems much more like the quantum world of interwoven coincidences... what I call 'dream logic'.

 

I am, however, finding the concept of karma as 'lessons we need to learn' quite usefull... This goes hand in hand with the 'karma as an energetic knot' interpretation. Throughout life you create eneretic knots that you are blind to - they cause you to constantly repeat some pattern in your life untill you become concious of it and learn the lesson that allows you to untie the knot!

 

This interpretation can be made to fit Neimad's 'karma as consensus reality'... Macrocosmically we create knots in our society... these knots are apparent in politics, economics, agriculture etc. Because these knots are agreed-upon by most people (most people agree that that piece of paper in your wallet holds some kind of value) they create the consensus reality we live in... and each knot has some wisdom hidden in it which we can collectively untie and learn from.

[...]

that is a good answer... You also defined the karmic knot in a very interesting manner. thanks...

[neimad]

This interpretation can be made to fit Neimad's 'karma as consensus reality'... Macrocosmically we create knots in our society... these knots are apparent in politics, economics, agriculture etc. Because these knots are agreed-upon by most people (most people agree that that piece of paper in your wallet holds some kind of value) they create the consensus reality we live in... and each knot has some wisdom hidden in it which we can collectively untie and learn from.

 

 

yes...

 

karma = lesson (or perhaps "experience" ...... hmmm takes too much effort right now to explain this).