Nei-Yeh chapter 3

[manitou]

Chapter 3

 

All the forms of the mind

Are naturally infused and filled with it (the vital essence),

Are naturally generated and developed (because of) it.

It is lost

Inevitably because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, and profit-seeking.

If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

your mind will just revert to equanimity.

The true condition of the mind

Is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose.

Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it

And harmony will naturally develop.

 

 

Comments?

[manitou]

I'll take a stab at it.

 

I'm not sure what he's talking about when he says 'all the forms of the mind', but the Tao infuses the mind with its essence in its natural state, according to this. The things that disrupt this natural state are the emotions listed.

 

It's easy to see why some of the activities of man would disrupt the essence of the Tao spirit in the mind. Profit-seeking is a no-brainer. But he also included the positive emotions...joy and happiness.

 

This seems to say that the state of bliss we love to experience is also a way of disrupting the Tao within. My take on this is that to perfectly express the Tao in all of its forms, there must be no emotion inside to distract.

 

I equate it with the phenomena of losing our bodies in meditation. If we can walk around with this mindset - no thoughts at all! - then perhaps we'll be capable of expressing the Tao perfectly out there in the streets.

 

Pretty radical, but I think I see what he's getting at....

[mystic red pheonix]

In chinese medicine excess joy is as much a cause of disease as lack of joy, so to achieve emotional stability we must find the ideal balance between the two. When yin (lack of joy)and Yang(excess joy)are perfectly balanced then we have achieved harmony. However, is that a state of no emotion at all?

[The Way Is Virtue]

It might help to keep in mind that this text seems to be mainly focused on how to meditate for the purpose of attaining tao, at least that is my impression from reading the whole text. The later passages about aligning the body and whatnot seem fairly consistent with other such passages I have read in other taoist texts regarding meditation. So in this case it would seem one is specifically aiming for stillness of the mind for meditation purposes. There is a concept in various taoist writings regarding meditation about needing to first calm the heart, which is related to calming all the emotions. One would first have to achieve the ability to maintain perfect calm, emotion wise, since an emotion is something that agitates or disturbs the mind regardless of what sort of emotion it is. I don't think I can offer much more beyond these very basic concepts though. The passage about "all the forms of the mind" may refer to a specific concept but off hand I am not sure what exactly is meant there. If I come across something I'll post it up...

Edited February 22, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[manitou]

TWIV - that makes perfect sense. Looking at it with eyes toward meditation makes it all fall into place a lot better.

[The Way Is Virtue]

TWIV - that makes perfect sense. Looking at it with eyes toward meditation makes it all fall into place a lot better.

 

Not all parts seem to be specifically about actual meditation practice, but it would seem to make sense that one has to regulate oneself not only while they are actually sitting in meditation, but also when they are not meditating as well. I guess it wouldn't be so great if one was really calm in meditation but very emotional and distracted and such the rest of the time.

 

I think Roth viewed the chapter content loosely following these lines:

ch 1 to 7 - Philosophical and cosmological principles

ch 8 to 14 - Techniques and principles for internal cultivation

ch 15 to 19 - Benefits of internal cultivation

ch 20 to 23 - Techniques and principles for internal cultivation

ch 24 to 26 - Summary of internal cultivation and its benefits

Edited February 23, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[manitou]

TWIV - you seem to have this work internalized.

 

If you come across any other translation that would clarify a particular point, please post it! I'm just working off a run off copy I got from stillness.com and I like to triangulate different great minds as well - seems like the essence I get out of it always lies someplace between what everyone else says - I guess that's how it works, huh?

[Astral_Anima]

In chinese medicine excess joy is as much a cause of disease as lack of joy, so to achieve emotional stability we must find the ideal balance between the two. When yin (lack of joy)and Yang(excess joy)are perfectly balanced then we have achieved harmony. However, is that a state of no emotion at all?

 

I don't think they mean have no enjoyment or be emotionless. I'd be curious to cross reference texts that mention happiness from those times to see what they meant, there could be a mistranslation. For example Dukka from Buddhism has been mistakenly translated as "suffering" in alot of english translations whereas it can mean a few different things and when you cross reference and check other words of the buddha for context the most sensible interpretation would be "impermanent".

 

SO it's possible joy and happiness back in that day had to do with "over-excitement", perhaps via intoxicants like wine, certain herbs, sex, etc. Perhaps it had more to do with not overstimulating the nervous system, maybe "excitement" would be a more proper translation for one of those, idk.

 

just some ideas

-Astral

[Mr. T]

hello.

 

two questions i guess i have:

 

1. how confident are you guys with these translations? i suppose the accuracy expectations are the same as most ancient texts?

 

2. why is this text not as prominent in the "taoist cannon", if there is such a thing?

 

 

these first few chapters are really cool to read. and not that i have anything to base this on, but the chapter seems to be speaking to "the 10,000 things", so could the phrase, "all the forms of the mind" just be another way to represent this saying?

 

i dunno, just my first impression...

Edited February 24, 2011 by Mr. T

[manitou]

Interesting observation, Mr. T. Looking at it that way, as the collective, makes sense too.

 

Especially since the last sentence of the previous chapter said 'When inner power develops and wisdom emerges, the myriad things will, to the last one, be grasped. This does seem to indicate that he's talking about the 10,000 things....that when inner power is gained, everything is seen for what it is.

 

This would apply to both the inner self and the outer 10,000 things.

 

I once read a yogi book that emphasized not looking at the object, look at the reason behind the object. This can only be done with inner understanding.

 

To answer your question, I'm only posting the one translation, so I'm not sure about anything. But I'll bet with everyone triangulating this, we can dissect it as well as if we were operating off several. Just call me a cockeyed optimist.

Edited February 24, 2011 by manitou

[dawei]

Without seeing the original chinese, my first impression is that these "acquired emotions" are being setup as what one wants to discard; and return to what is considered the "congenital emotions" (although they are not named, it's implied by contrast). The focus is still on "five"; the five organs associate to the five emotions: Lung to sorrow; Heart to Joy, etc. Cast these off to attain the true condition: harmony.

[dawei]

Especially since the last sentence of the previous chapter said 'When inner power develops and wisdom emerges, the myriad things will, to the last one, be grasped. This does seem to indicate that he's talking about the 10,000 things....that when inner power is gained, everything is seen for what it is.

 

This would apply to both the inner self and the outer 10,000 things.

I think it's a reference to [the development of] "awareness". I think the other 10,000 have it already and don't lose it.

[cheya]

 

 

Without seeing the original chinese...

Someone posted a link earlier with an alternative translation accompanied by the Chinese, maybe not the original...

http://huanglao.org/neiye.htm

 

[The Way Is Virtue]

If you come across any other translation that would clarify a particular point, please post it! I'm just working off a run off copy I got from stillness.com and I like to triangulate different great minds as well - seems like the essence I get out of it always lies someplace between what everyone else says - I guess that's how it works, huh?

 

Yes, it's always good to get different perspectives!

[manitou]

Somewhere in the TTC it says something like to fully experience the phenomena, one must do so with emotion. To truly understand the Nature of something, we must do it without emotion. (I can't remember the exact words, it's just in my memory banks somewhere).

 

I do believe we may have the choice! I think we can choose when and when not to wear emotions, when to succumb to them, when to cry them out, when to be joyful. But I think (actually, I Know) it's possible to transcend emotion when we have to.

 

Last summer there was a little black horse living across the highway from me; he was all alone, the owner only stopped by to throw a bale of alfalfa every few days. I introduced myself to the owner and to the horse. The owner gave me permission to spend time with his animal, to give it treats, to curry him. I loved this little stallion.

 

One day we came home and the horse was on the ground, sweating profusely. Being a horse person, I knew he was colicking. I ran around looking for some bute to get him out of his pain - couldn't reach the owner or no vets were open - and by the time I returned with the bute the little guy had died.

 

I don't know how, but I transcended it. It would have been so devastating to me if I had indulged my feelings, but somehow I didn't. I said goodbye to the horse when his body was being hauled off by the owner. In fact, a year prior to this I had to put down my old mare and the tears lasted for at least a month, both me and my husband.

 

It was really very odd. It was almost like I 'wasn't quite there' or something - a slightly separate reality. But there was a very deep spiritual component to it, I just can't quite put it into words.

[Friend]

All the forms of the mind

 

The thought the spoken, the pictures, the feeling well everything that Virtual reallity is.

 

Are naturally infused and filled with it (the vital essence),

Are naturally generated and developed (because of) it.

It is lost

 

Oh man, when one think then one use up the vital essence. (Again this can brought into exitence if the form has enough of vital essence, a thought Form you can make a thought and make it alive. (Well many have think about the christian devil for 2000 Years, not a comfortable thought, but again many thoughts go to Jesus and the One God.

So this is the reason of the loss of vital essence, so following sentence make sense,

as one think too much in such an emotional state.

 

Inevitably because of sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire, and profit-seeking.

If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

your mind will just revert to equanimity.

The true condition of the mind

Is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose.

 

Calmness is the key which come from not indulged in the emotion which also means energie motion that is different than feeling which is sensing without getting attachet to get a strong reaction.

 

Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it

And harmony will naturally develop.

 

It is important as the key point is to stay calm and he use much word and sentence for it, it must be very very very important.

 

Q

[zerostao]

"what is above form is called tao, what is within form is called tool"

[manitou]

"what is above form is called tao, what is within form is called tool"

 

 

Could you go a little further into that?

[zerostao]

this passage describes the 2 aspects of the material substance of things

in the world (form). the transcendent or metaphysical(tao) and the practical or worldly(tool)

it distinguishes between the metaphysical and the material or the social implications of forces that operate thru changes.

[manitou]

Got it. thanks...

[Dagon]

I think this one is pointing to meditation.

[Apech]

Hi,

 

Only just come here to read.

 

I think what it is saying about emotions, joy and so on, is that they are lesser than the Tao, or original mind or whatever. So if you become absorbed in joy then you have only a partial experience. They are not bad as such just somehow incomplete. For instance profit taking means to gather wealth in one place ... but that just means it is missing in another ... a partial view.

 

(Maybe ... this is my first read).

[PGawley]

Could all forms of the mind be referring to consciousness?

[mYTHmAKER]

I'll take a stab at it.

 

I'm not sure what he's talking about when he says 'all the forms of the mind', but the Tao infuses the mind with its essence in its natural state, according to this. The things that disrupt this natural state are the emotions listed.

 

It's easy to see why some of the activities of man would disrupt the essence of the Tao spirit in the mind. Profit-seeking is a no-brainer. But he also included the positive emotions...joy and happiness.

 

This seems to say that the state of bliss we love to experience is also a way of disrupting the Tao within. My take on this is that to perfectly express the Tao in all of its forms, there must be no emotion inside to distract.

 

I equate it with the phenomena of losing our bodies in meditation. If we can walk around with this mindset - no thoughts at all! - then perhaps we'll be capable of expressing the Tao perfectly out there in the streets.

 

Pretty radical, but I think I see what he's getting at....

 

Bliss can also mean contentment.