Time- what is it?

[C T]

Does anyone have time to read this? (some thoughts by Alan Watts). Quite relevant to this thread...

http://www.secondattention.org/articles/watts1.asp

 

 

A quick Alan Watts' clip, also a tiny bit relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HPQQ8MWU8Q

 

 

 

Enjoy!

[zerostao]

"everything happens all at once...all of it" time laid out in its entirety. a timescape similar to a landscape. with all past and future events located there together. no special moment of the present to be found or any process of a sequence of events? i am not saying this is false however it is going to be hard for many folks to comprehend

[zerostao]

kate asked "can I "reverse" mine and be as if none of the things that happened, happened ?"

neither relativity or quantum mechanics rules this out. however there will be a multitude of paradoxes to deal with that would make the scenario unlikely.

UNLESS one considers multiple realities.

altho the laws of physics allows for time travel will Nature intervene to prevent

it happening?

this is still an open question.

[Birch]

I think the NOW is all there is and ever will be. The past doesn't exist and the future will never come so why bother worrying about it.

Mental trick:-) Doesn't work because you had to write it down therefore negating the very concept (or something ;-) sorry I'm not very good at buddhist rhetoric :-)

How do you explain physical transformation (another marker of "Time") and the fact you were born to a mother... Or did you just invent yourself out of thin air...woohoo a real "Virgin birth"

 

IMO there's a big difference between what we say about this stuff and the way things are. It's not all about interpretation all the time (pardon the pun)

I know the quantum people have spawned lots of ideas that it's only ever about what we perceive (the whole "collapsing" reality deal) but I don't think it's that simple. Or if it is that simple then that reality must be shared to a huge degree in order to collapse it...

[manitou]

First, I meditated on the normal Minkowski spacetime which is a cone starting at a point (I placed myself there) and expanding in 3D at the speed of light. This caused me to travel forward at the speed of light. The spacetime left behind created the "inaccessible past" we all know and love.

 

 

It's odd how this sounds very much like the Tao concept of the bow bending when the string is pulled back....

Edited February 26, 2011 by manitou

[sifusufi]

I have heard a story of one who went back in time and healed his/her childhood self.

 

 

It's a big part of Rubenfeld synergy.

 

I sought out a practitioner when I lived in NYC.

 

If you have read "Pathnotes Of An American Ninja Master" Glenn tells a VERY funny story about his time with Ilana Rubenfeld at a seminar

 

I went back in time to some work I did when I was a kid and told myself "you did good"

 

It helped with my goal of ambidexterity too.

[Taomeow]

It's odd how this sounds very much like the Tao concept of the bow bending when the string is pulled back....

 

Wow! I haven't thought of it this way.

 

Time shoots us like arrows...

 

Where we fly ain't straight though...

 

hence the taoist bend (pun intended) on flexibility, pliability, ongoing adjustments... A rigid arrow is what deviates from the Way, by failing to adjust its course to the way the Way turns... It hits something and stops... A limp arrow, on the other hand, just drops down, having missed everything.

 

A non-rigid non-limp one can fly forever.

[surfingbudda]

I remember reading a Chinese novel whose protagonist, a Chinese woman living in England, was having a relationship with a British guy prone to buddhist ideation. She heard this line from him a lot, and eventually they broke up over it.

 

thats funny, was the protagonist spiritual at all? Ya I know its all fine to regurgitate these spiritual "ideas" that sound nice, however I think it will never mean something to you until you come to realize it yourself through personal experience.

[Taomeow]

thats funny, was the protagonist spiritual at all? Ya I know its all fine to regurgitate these spiritual "ideas" that sound nice, however I think it will never mean something to you until you come to realize it yourself through personal experience.

True.

 

The protagonist was not spiritual in the sense the word is used at Western forums. She didn't practice anything. But after they ate rice together, she was the one who washed the bowls.

 

I think anyone who subscribes to the "there's only now" doctrine would prove it empirically only if he always washed his bowl "now" rather than waiting for someone else to do it "later" on the basis of "it doesn't matter whether we will have clean or dirty bowls next time come dinnertime, since the future doesn't exist" -- or on any other grounds. I believe the only people who avoid coming across as mere slackers when celebrating "the power of now" are the ones whose middle name is "impeccable." Everybody else is better off with the idea of "timeliness" methinks. "Now" is no better than "back then" or "later on," nor worse, for doing things right. The only time that is the only real impeccable time is the timely time.

 

Taoism is a science of timeliness where "now" doesn't get glorified over "not now" -- rather, "timely" is sought and "untimely" avoided, and this entails a lot of awareness/contemplation of the past and divination/extrapolation into the future before anything is undertaken "now." I love it.

 

"A sage waits patiently for the right time to come. When it comes, he doesn't hesitate! He grabs it by the coattails and doesn't let it pass by. A sage values an inch of time over a foot of jade." -- Zhuangzi (quoting from memory).

[C T]

"A sage values an inch of time over a foot of jade." -- Zhuangzi (quoting from memory).

May i presume that you, dear Taomeow, values an ounce of Timeliness over a pound of thyme?

[Taomeow]

May i presume that you, dear Taomeow, values an ounce of Timeliness over a pound of thyme?

 

LOL, I like both sage and thyme, and in general cook with many spices... but of course Timeliness is what keeps it all from burning!

 

By the way, I just remembered that I learned my first and most important lesson about timeliness when I was eight years old. There was this swing in the playground... a mighty steel contraption with a solid steel bench suspended from heavy steel chains, probably made out of Soviet military surplus, judging by the style of it... It was hard to get it going (you did it standing up, not sitting, if you had self-respect), but once it did, it was unstoppable and gained crazy momentum. The brave among us used a spectacular way of jumping off. You got the swing to the highest amplitude -- and that meant it was nearly making a full circle -- and as it was going back and forth, on the uppermost "forth" you jumped, and it propelled you in a high, smooth arch so you were airborne for long seconds -- felt like an eternity -- and then landed softly on your feet. The trick was to jump at the very precise moment of the greatest "forward" momentum, not when it starts losing it and going back, otherwise the arch was nowhere near as neat. So I was doing it many times every day and thought I was an expert and got sloppy with timing at one point. I jumped too soon, when the bench was still gaining speed going forward. It caught up with me and hit me in the lower back, striking me down with the force of a charging elephant. So instead of forward on an arch, I went straight down. Splat.

 

Perhaps my shining ideal of mastering timeliness (and time itself) can be traced back to the traumatic impact of miscalculating a "now" by a second that day long ago...

[manitou]

"everything happens all at once...all of it" time laid out in its entirety. a timescape similar to a landscape. with all past and future events located there together. no special moment of the present to be found or any process of a sequence of events? i am not saying this is false however it is going to be hard for many folks to comprehend

 

 

This is my understanding as well. I woke up this morning visualizing a figure 8, one loop is the past, one loop is the future, the intersection is Now. It's all one.

[manitou]

. It caught up with me and hit me in the lower back, striking me down with the force of a charging elephant. So instead of forward on an arch, I went straight down. Splat.

 

Perhaps my shining ideal of mastering timeliness (and time itself) can be traced back to the traumatic impact of miscalculating a "now" by a second that day long ago...

 

Slightly off subject, but I have a similar story - when I was about 6 or 7 I used to sit up on my aunt's second story wall on her porch. I just KNEW I could fly. I could 'remember' somewhere in my gut how to do it. I'd sit up there every time I visited, staring down, wondering if I could fly. (of course my aunt and parents had no idea I would do this).

 

One day I tried to fly. I finally jumped. I landed on my feet, but paralyzed my legs and did the army crawl back around the back of the house and hid in the bushes for quite a while until feeling came back into my legs. I never told my folks, my dad would have killed me.

 

But I have been trying to fly ever since - not in a physical way, but a metaphysical way. I think there's a whole lot to these childhood traumas that set the stage for the rest of our life....

Edited February 26, 2011 by manitou

[manitou]

I believe the only people who avoid coming across as mere slackers when celebrating "the power of now" are the ones whose middle name is "impeccable." Everybody else is better off with the idea of "timeliness" methinks. "Now" is no better than "back then" or "later on," nor worse, for doing things right. The only time that is the only real impeccable time is the timely time.

 

 

I do agree with this too. I think impeccability is what naturally develops as we internalize the concepts of the Tao; we see that there is an internal impeccability that is required for the vision we're seeking. My physical house is a lot cleaner than it used to be, and this has happened as a result of both intending to be more impeccable in my physical (and mental) surroundings, combined with a natural upward desire for more order in my world and thoughts. The order in my thoughts I'm talking about is not the order of a structure, but rather the self-discipline to try and not devolve into criticism, sarcasm, mean-spiritedness.

[Marblehead]

Really nice discussion Folks.

 

I would add at this point that the past, the now, and the future all exist simultaneously.

 

We live in the 'now', we remember the lessons of the 'past' so that we don't continually make the same mistakes over and over again, and we plan for the 'future' so that we might have a better life tomorrow.

[zerostao]

This is my understanding as well. I woke up this morning visualizing a figure 8, one loop is the past, one loop is the future, the intersection is Now. It's all one.

cool, the figure 8 really helps. as opposed to it all just lying out in a field.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I will give you my thoughts on what time is but I need to give a little background information first so it makes sense.

 

Back in 2005 I think it was I tripped out pretty hard core (no drugs involved) This ended badly so please do not try to recreate my experiment.

 

I had read a study about the brainwaves of Buddhist monks that had accumulated 50+ years and 50,000+ hours of metta meditation experience. Their brainwaves showed off the chart record breaking levels of high amplitude gamma brainwaves around 42hz. Gamma brainwave activity is only seen in brief split second bursts in normal people only then usually when they have an AHA! or Eureka moment or functionalize some new knowledge like how to work a new type of math problem.

 

So I was like wow that is awesome, I am going to attempt to force my brainwaves into the same brainwave patterns using binarual beat brainwave entrainment at 42hz.

 

I meditated daily for 30 minutes using the program and focused on compassion for myself and the entire universe as is described in metta and towards the end of a few weeks massive amounts of insights and new ideas and things were flowing out of me I couldn't write it all down fast enough.

 

Towards the end of it, I reached a point where I couldn't sleep and had to stop using the entrainment program I made. It didn't help though as I already crossed over into trip out land. This was the turning point for me as an atheist with no belief in anything supernatural as other people close to me were also affected even though separated by distances of hundreds of miles. In a dream like state I called my girlfriend during this time on a cellphone and we both remember the conversation, but it never occurred in this reality. We checked the logs on both phones but neither phone showed anything. Other friends and family members were having weird dreams and crazy experiences, so I am certain this rippled out beyond just me and wasn't purely hallucinatory.

 

I still consider the insights I gained to be invaluable but wouldn't recommend anyone else ever try it.

 

 

Ok so onto my thoughts on what time is.

 

During my experience I experienced time as the speed at which my consciousness moved through 4D space.

 

It was as if past, present and future were apart of a solid object. Imagine that you have a cardboard box, the box that existed yesterday, exists now, and will exist tommorrow are all apart of a solid object. Past future are just points of reference.

 

So the you when you were born, the you of now, and the you of tomorrow are all just as real, exist with the same reality as the present you, and are just as real and tangible. Your consciousness moves through this object which the past you, present you and future you are apart of. Time is the location and speed of movement of your consciousness through this object.

 

I further experienced that moment to moment with each choice and possibility that the consciousness is navigating through a multiverse of infinite possibilities, and each of those worlds are just as real as our own, for each possibility there is a reality to account for it.

 

It went even further with me having different bodies in different realities at the same time, and being like a many armed buddha. Trying to navigate my awareness in and out of different bodies and my awareness being stuck in different ones at the same time and not being able to coordinate in one reality and do something as simple as use the bathroom. Imagine having a leg in one world, an eye in another, and a arm in yet another, and getting different audio and video feeds from different realities. I was trying to have multiple conversations with different versions of the exact same person at the same time and it led to massive confusion.

 

It was a very traumatic experience, beyond any LSD trip I have ever heard about. It was enough to convert me from a staunch atheist.

Edited February 26, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[manitou]

Pie Guy - sounds like you could have run into Schroedinger's cat within all those separate realities! Your words were wonderful!

[Todd]

I remember a report a few months ago of a study that tested whether studying for a test after taking it has an effect on our performance. They found that it did. The participants did better on the aspects of the test that they studied after finishing the test.

 

This is just one study, but it is interesting. It seems to be some evidence that Manitou's figure 8 model might hold some water. I see it as influence from the now into the future and from the future to the now. We all have a lot of evidence that leads us believe that there is influence from the past to the now. That only leaves influence from the now to the past... given this model it seems a given, since the influence from the future to now, from the point of view of the future, is influence on the past from now, though maybe we don't have as much of a visceral feel for that.

 

Letting go of the standard ideas of past and future goes a long way toward allowing such a visceral experience, though in my experience, it is not one of, "Oh now I can change my past", since there is no real idea of past, though that does not change whatever reality there is of the past.

[Birch]

"I am going to attempt to force"

 

Okeydokey...

 

I dunno what is, going on. But whatever's going on, it's, um, going on there (given the time/space non-differential whatsoever). Thing. Which, by-god, is not "a thing". Hopefully someone, somewhere gets it :-)

 

Whoever his-face - I think it was a "his-face" was on here at one point who suggested - my paraphrase and frustrated effort to ask: "what if everything you ever questioned was already answered?"

 

All the while knowing that was an old GIH question that I've just been dying to ask! And he both asked and answered it all on his own. And I say it doesn't matter a dime until I know it for myself. Ironically, it's an "old" question. As old as the world :-)

[Marblehead]

What's that song?

 

http://www.stonestube.net/video.php?title=Time+Waits+for+No+One

[zerostao]

What's that song?

 

http://www.stonestube.net/video.php?title=Time+Waits+for+No+One

Thanks MH i am sure to spend some time on that site.

[Everything]

Really nice discussion Folks.

 

I would add at this point that the past, the now, and the future all exist simultaneously.

 

We live in the 'now', we remember the lessons of the 'past' so that we don't continually make the same mistakes over and over again, and we plan for the 'future' so that we might have a better life tomorrow.

Best description yet.

 

The most accurate description of time is that it is relative.

 

There are perspectives beyond our own evolved intuition that can teach us alot about the true nature of time, but these can never be fully comprehended, only abstracted and explained in that way. For example, mathematics is a great tool for communicating concepts of time.

 

For our human life time is exactly about what Marbelhead mentioned in the quote above. And to add to that: "Attend the present to deal with the past." Because your concept and questions about time arises in your perception of your own memory. Perceiving your memory while remaining present will dissolve your questions about time like salt in water.

 

When the present is an ocean of water, all your questions about time is but a grain of salt.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Everything

[zerostao]

Best description yet.

 

The most accurate description of time is that it is relative.

 

There are perspectives beyond our own evolved intuition that can teach us alot about the true nature of time, but these can never be fully comprehended, only abstracted and explained in that way. For example, mathematics is a great tool for communicating concepts of time.

 

For our human life time is exactly about what Marbelhead mentioned in the quote above. And to add to that: "Attend the present to deal with the past." Because your concept and questions about time arises in your perception of your own memory. Perceiving your memory while remaining present will dissolve your questions about time like salt in water.

 

When the present is an ocean of water, all your questions about time is but a grain of salt.

does this ocean end/begin at the shore?

Edited February 27, 2011 by zerostao

[Everything]

does this ocean end/begin at the shore?

It never begins or ends. Present contains all time frames and spaces as one single unit. You can draw infinitely from the experience of the present moment, as if it were an infinite vessel, bottemless.

The beginning of the present moment and the ocean are both illusions and mere symbols for enhancing your understanding. The beginning is actually the end of any limitations set upon your mind by "identities."