Time- what is it?

[zerostao]

It never begins or ends. Present contains all time frames and spaces as one single unit. You can draw infinitely from the experience of the present moment, as if it were an infinite vessel, bottemless.

The beginning of the present moment and the ocean are both illusions and mere symbols for enhancing your understanding. The beginning is actually the end of any limitations set upon your mind by "identities."

i like the model of the deck of cards dealt out on the table positioned in a figure 8.

looping around and around, continous and flowing.could be reshuffled, but something about it still causes me a problem.

and here in our everyday life we certainly have the present with its past/future attached all at once. we cannot assume this is a steady state of how it always is.

 

i appreciate symbols, very useful like the symbols of mathematics.

illusion is of no help to me. none what-so-ever. the oceans i have seen did have a beach or shoreline. yes they could be very deep waters spanning vast distances but they came to and end at the shoreline. or began at one.

for me illusion is an evasive tactical ploy. it would be like saying our universe has always just existed or didn't have a beginning. one concept here that i have not discarded was this emergence that easy spoke of.

[Taomeow]

i like the model of the deck of cards dealt out on the table positioned in a figure 8.

looping around and around, continous and flowing.could be reshuffled, but something about it still causes me a problem.

and here in our everyday life we certainly have the present with its past/future attached all at once. we cannot assume this is a steady state of how it always is.

 

i appreciate symbols, very useful like the symbols of mathematics.

illusion is of no help to me. none what-so-ever. the oceans i have seen did have a beach or shoreline. yes they could be very deep waters spanning vast distances but they came to and end at the shoreline. or began at one.

for me illusion is an evasive tactical ploy. it would be like saying our universe has always just existed or didn't have a beginning. one concept here that i have not discarded was this emergence that easy spoke of.

 

Yeah, "illusion" doesn't float my boat either.

 

To me, a fruitful approach to the "created from scratch" vs. "uncreated and always just there" controversy proved to be "co-creation," a taoist concept of shamanic genesis. This, among other things, rids us of the fruitless "illusion" ideation applied to human experience. What illusion?.. Is it planted "out there" for me, or by me?.. or both?.. or neither?.. If neither, where the f... does it come from? And if both, then how is it different from "real?.." (Of course I won't even consider an induced hallucination "for me" -- the creationist kindergarten -- or "by me" -- the new age spiritual grandeur mania...)

[Marblehead]

Ah, cycles and reversion. I see it throughout nature. Is it true for the universe as well? I believe it is but I won't be around to see it happen so for me this question is only mental masturbation and not something that will ever be proven or disproven.

[Everything]

i like the model of the deck of cards dealt out on the table positioned in a figure 8.

looping around and around, continous and flowing.could be reshuffled, but something about it still causes me a problem.

and here in our everyday life we certainly have the present with its past/future attached all at once. we cannot assume this is a steady state of how it always is.

 

i appreciate symbols, very useful like the symbols of mathematics.

illusion is of no help to me. none what-so-ever. the oceans i have seen did have a beach or shoreline. yes they could be very deep waters spanning vast distances but they came to and end at the shoreline. or began at one.

for me illusion is an evasive tactical ploy. it would be like saying our universe has always just existed or didn't have a beginning. one concept here that i have not discarded was this emergence that easy spoke of.

Yes, and that is from a human perspective. That is why I also mentioned that this true nature of time has no value to us and cannot be comprehended. It is only relevant for quantum physics. Your ideas and believes are more constructive and that is all that counts... The truth does not matter.

[Marblehead]

The truth does not matter.

 

Now there is a statement capable of inspiring all sorts of emotions.

[NeiChuan]

Hm also to the comments related to this Reply.

 

Time is only straight line if you see it that way.. Essentially when you're look at scene selection on a dvd. While Going through the movie all these scenes are essentially still active and ready to be changed, or even experienced..

 

Strangely enough.

 

It's another reason we have things like de ja vu and premonitions. This time/experience drops into your lap.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

True.

 

I think anyone who subscribes to the "there's only now" doctrine would prove it empirically only if he always washed his bowl "now" rather than waiting for someone else to do it "later" on the basis of "it doesn't matter whether we will have clean or dirty bowls next time come dinnertime, since the future doesn't exist"

 

 

This assumes that he wants the bowls washed at that time, which he probably doesn't. As he is 'in the now' he couldn't care less if the bowls were washed or not. So, he doesn't wash the bowls, this is evidence that he is existing in 'the now'... and a good excuse for not washing bowls too.

 

Later if he does actually need a clean bowl the problems start. He could get round this by not doing the cooking and therefore serving, thus, having no need for a clean bowl. Another alternative would be accepting to eat out of a dirty bowl, this could also be a form of practice at breaking down pre-conditioned expectations.

 

The fault must have been partly hers. Her conditioned need to serve him allowed him to do nothing. Hopefully she changed it after that experience.

 

On the other hand there may have been things that could have been leveled at her. For example, when she needed something heavy picking up and expected the man to do it, he could have told her "if you existed in the now you would have no desire to have it picked up".... or he may have done it and she 'did bowls'.

 

Personally I do my own bowls, I wish I didn't though! Now or in the future or past!

[Taomeow]

This assumes that he wants the bowls washed at that time, which he probably doesn't. As he is 'in the now' he couldn't care less if the bowls were washed or not. So, he doesn't wash the bowls, this is evidence that he is existing in 'the now'... and a good excuse for not washing bowls too.

 

Later if he does actually need a clean bowl the problems start. He could get round this by not doing the cooking and therefore serving, thus, having no need for a clean bowl. Another alternative would be accepting to eat out of a dirty bowl, this could also be a form of practice at breaking down pre-conditioned expectations.

 

The fault must have been partly hers. Her conditioned need to serve him allowed him to do nothing. Hopefully she changed it after that experience.

 

On the other hand there may have been things that could have been leveled at her. For example, when she needed something heavy picking up and expected the man to do it, he could have told her "if you existed in the now you would have no desire to have it picked up".... or he may have done it and she 'did bowls'.

 

Personally I do my own bowls, I wish I didn't though! Now or in the future or past!

 

Well... there's all kinds of options, obviously, but I happen to know for a fact how a taoist hermit currently living in the mountains in Wudangshan solves this problem empirically. He licks his bowl clean after meals. The reason is energy conservation I think... carrying water, chopping wood, all that stuff sounds very romantic in taoist poems but as a daily survival chore requires prudent application of effort -- not too little, not too much... Apparently washing the bowl is deemed wasteful of water under the hermit's conditions -- and consequently of vital energy.

 

I think taoists are not big on "now" as opposed to "not now" because "now" does not, in and of itself, conserve vital energy, while "timeliness" does. Some tasks are better put off till later -- rice takes time to cook, it doesn't matter that you're hungry "now," you will have to wait till it's done, and that's when you will get your peak nutrition, replenishing your vital energy. The bowl, on the other hand, will be much harder to lick clean if it's not done "right now." Whether he wants to do either the eating or the licking now or later doesn't matter. The bigger picture is what matters.

 

I suspect the philosophers of "now" and the consumers seeking "instant gratification" have much in common... e.g., emotionality of an infant who needs his needs to get taken care of "now" and is hurt by waiting. The philosophers and the consumers are no longer really hurt by waiting, but if they always, always had to wait when they were three months old, they will seek to remedy the hurt for the rest of their lives. Too late though!

[NeiChuan]

Well... there's all kinds of options, obviously, but I happen to know for a fact how a taoist hermit currently living in the mountains in Wudangshan solves this problem empirically. He licks his bowl clean after meals. The reason is energy conservation I think... carrying water, chopping wood, all that stuff sounds very romantic in taoist poems but as a daily survival chore requires prudent application of effort -- not too little, not too much... Apparently washing the bowl is deemed wasteful of water under the hermit's conditions -- and consequently of vital energy.

 

I think taoists are not big on "now" as opposed to "not now" because "now" does not, in and of itself, conserve vital energy, while "timeliness" does. Some tasks are better put off till later -- rice takes time to cook, it doesn't matter that you're hungry "now," you will have to wait till it's done, and that's when you will get your peak nutrition, replenishing your vital energy. The bowl, on the other hand, will be much harder to lick clean if it's not done "right now." Whether he wants to do either the eating or the licking now or later doesn't matter. The bigger picture is what matters.

 

I suspect the philosophers of "now" and the consumers seeking "instant gratification" have much in common... e.g., emotionality of an infant who needs his needs to get taken care of "now" and is hurt by waiting. The philosophers and the consumers are no longer really hurt by waiting, but if they always, always had to wait when they were three months old, they will seek to remedy the hurt for the rest of their lives. Too late though!

 

Hm I always lick my plates/bowls.

 

I guess I Finally have an excuse why lol

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Well... there's all kinds of options, obviously, but I happen to know for a fact how a taoist hermit currently living in the mountains in Wudangshan solves this problem empirically. He licks his bowl clean after meals. The reason is energy conservation I think... carrying water, chopping wood, all that stuff sounds very romantic in taoist poems but as a daily survival chore requires prudent application of effort -- not too little, not too much... Apparently washing the bowl is deemed wasteful of water under the hermit's conditions -- and consequently of vital energy.

 

 

All I can say is it's lucky he doesn't live with anyone, I certainly wouldn't be wanting to use that bowl after him!

 

I think that woman you mentioned earlier should have just thrown all the bowls out, except two, and put a name sticker on each bowl, one for him and one for her, then served his food in the dirty bowl.

 

Having said that, many men can really become suddenly practical and use many types of bowl objects around the house: fruit bowl, sieve, large cup and if push comes to shove, hands. Anything to get out of doing the dishes.

 

That Daoists bowl can't be the usual size, he just wouldn't be able to get his face in it (I know, I've tried), he must have a special bowl, or a very long tongue.

[Kali Yuga]

I didn't read everything that the others said, but let me take a crack at it.

 

"Literal" time in itself exists only because we believe it exists. The concept of time exists for practical reasons, but in essence it does not exist. The essence of the Tao is that it is in perpetual transition. Time does not exist because the very second we talk about something, that thing has changed already! The illusion of things are that even as something seems solid, it is in fact not solid. Particle physics talks about this constantly, that at a molecular level, even the densest material, is not immobile but rather active and moving at incredible speed. With meditation (especially vipassana), one begins to feel the subtle nuances in one's body that hint at the fact that you and everything in your body, are in fact not material, but vibrational.

 

I suggest that you all might want to listen to Shinzen Young's "Science of Enlightenment' series, last disc. He has ideas about science and meditation that are so mind blowing that they threaten the very fabric and foundations of modern science. He has good practice material too.

[Marblehead]

Interesting that there was a rerun on TV last night of the "Through The Wormhole" of the "Time" episode.

[zerostao]

Interesting that there was a rerun on TV last night of the "Through The Wormhole" of the "Time" episode.

Alice went thru a rabbit hole, or a looking glass to a rabbit hole? and encountered the white rabbit who had a watch that was mal-functioning(running past?).

[Marblehead]

Alice went thru a rabbit hole, or a looking glass to a rabbit hole? and encountered the white rabbit who had a watch that was mal-functioning(running past?).

 

Something like that only different.

 

Some people say you can go to jail through a wormhole and still collect $50.

 

What time is it? I have a hot date tonight. (I sometimes lie.)

[zerostao]

for me right now, the meaning of time is that in it the stages of growth can unfold in a clear sequence. thus the seasons & all living things change & alternate in their course.

[Gypsy]

Who observes clocks in night dreams? Of all the waking dreams I've observed, no clocks or time has existed. Another observation, were all connected entering this day-dream/night-dream for the fact; I have witnessed my ex going to a Halloween party dressed up as a gay fellow the night before-Saturday. That next day-Sunday, had a hunch to call to apply my insight to him. Yes! This was so, with an amazement of Life's true nature is already fulfilled!

 

Namaste ♥