What is the best religion?

[Aaron]

Guilt and shame exist in every culture, how it is directed is the only thing that changes. This notion that Buddhism needs to be watered down or that Westerners are not capable of understanding the premises of Eastern Religion is nothing more than racism and bigotry at its finest.

 

If a teaching is founded upon truth, then anyone who hears it can know it and understand it.

 

Aaron

[ralis]

Guilt and shame exist in every culture, how it is directed is the only thing that changes. This notion that Buddhism needs to be watered down or that Westerners are not capable of understanding the premises of Eastern Religion is nothing more than racism and bigotry at its finest.

 

If a teaching is founded upon truth, then anyone who hears it can know it and understand it.

 

Aaron

 

Tibetan wannabes here in the West, have strange notions in regards to Tibetan culture. Tibetans are elevated to a larger than life status, which is absurd. Here in Santa Fe there is a very large Tibetan refugee culture. They all seem like normal human beings trying to make their way in life. Same problems as everyone else.

 

In general, Westerners are fascinated with anything exotic and will make ridiculous assumptions that have no basis in reality.

Edited July 6, 2011 by ralis

[ralis]

I am going to end this debate with the absolutely real religion, whereas all others pale in comparison. The most subtle and nuanced in the entire cosmos!

 

 

http://www.subgenius.com/

Edited July 6, 2011 by ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Tibetan wannabes here in the West, have strange notions in regards to Tibetan culture. Tibetans are elevated to a larger than life status, which is absurd. Here in Santa Fe there is a very large Tibetan refugee culture. They all seem like normal human beings trying to make their way in life. Same problems as everyone else.

 

In general, Westerners are fascinated with anything exotic and will make ridiculous assumptions that have no basis in reality.

 

We merely talk about the special breed that come from a truly realized standard of Tantric practice, not the common folk.

 

Having Vajrayana as the national religion is NOT common. It is NOT like having Native American shamanism as ones national tradition and it's not like having Christian puritanicalism as ones conditioned influence. For someone that thinks he's so smart, you can be pretty lack luster in your interpretation of things.

 

You can project all the ignorance that you want. But, you have not read the autobiographies of the very many realized practitioners of this path you so wish to demean into your state of mind. You also don't have memories of having been Tibetan prier to the Chinese invasion. You dear fellow, have no idea what you're on about!

 

Also, generally speaking, the way you experience Tibetans from Tibet directly, is not at all like the way some others might experience them, simply due to the level of conditioned projectioning that you do. Also, the way they've had to acclimatize to this Western culture is just as you would have to acclimatize to their culture, which would not take long, especially for someone as smart and Mensa'd as yourself.

 

Wow, you are unbelievable. Knock, knock!!

[Vajrahridaya]

I am going to end this debate with the absolutely real religion, whereas all others pale in comparison.

 

 

http://www.subgenius.com/

 

 

 

I have a 163 IQ... where do you stand?

[ralis]

I have a 163 IQ... where do you stand?

 

Where was your IQ measured? By whom? Anyone can fantasize.

Edited July 6, 2011 by ralis

[Simplicity Rules]

Tibetan wannabes here in the West, have strange notions in regards to Tibetan culture. Tibetans are elevated to a larger than life status, which is absurd. Here in Santa Fe there is a very large Tibetan refugee culture. They all seem like normal human beings trying to make their way in life. Same problems as everyone else.

 

In general, Westerners are fascinated with anything exotic and will make ridiculous assumptions that have no basis in reality.

 

The same happened in the 70s and 80s with many New Agers frustrated with Christianity turning to Hinduism and Buddhism. Agreed, the Eastern paths were more open minded, provided clearer and more scientific metaphysics and were way better than religions guided by blind creationist theories. However, like the samples we see on this very board, some got carried away with this infatuation and assumed everything and anything related to Buddhism to be true and perfect. Even a discussion of Buddhism, it's social shortcomings etc. became a taboo as Buddhism was "perfect", so also cultures derived out of it, with Tibet forming the primary example. An unresolved frustration becomes apparent when such an infatuated crowd presents before us an argument of Western Materialism vs Eastern Spirituality. Unfortunately, most who make such statements have no idea what they are talking about. I lived in Dharamshala for three years, in Srilanka for 11 months and in Nepal for an year and half. Like they say, the grass is always greener on the other side

 

If you spoke to Tibetan Buddhist monks at Dharamshala, many of them described America as their version of Shangri-La. They all wanted to come here and preach "dharma", so they said. They were unhappy with what they were provided with in a third world country such as India. Many of them became monks because they knew nothing else! They did not have access to professional education, their worldview of anything outside Buddhism was next to nothing and they had no other skills. The option was to become monks! But, with access to education and a broader worldview, one is already seeing fewer Tibetans embracing monkhoods or even Buddhist religion. The 2009 Indian census presents these surprising numbers. When I spoke to these monks, their vision of America was exactly like what some people here portray Tibet to be - perfect. Since they are monks and lamas, they must be correct no?

 

Both cultures have their own set of problems. Sometimes, the "spirituality" aspect of Buddhists is their biggest problem as history has shown. Even with all the supposed guilt or whatever that plagues Western society, there is a recognition of the problem at least to an extent, there are support mechanisms and there is awareness, of a wide range of issues and not only about thogal or mahamudra or tulku and tulpa. It does not take immense intelligence to conclude that Tibet is no Shangri-la and Buddhism is no perfect religion. Religion has not solved any issue for Tibet and it never will. One can argue endlessly about the joyful demeanor of the lamas and so on as seen on coverpages and videos but seriously, they are as much human as anyone else and elevating them to the pedestal is uncalled for. They do have something valuable to offer, but so do many others, like a swimming coach. Buddhism is better than a bunch of other counterparts, but there is also Hinduism, Taoism and others which offer similar cultural and philosophical outlook at a broad level. But, who can argue with blind faith?

 

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

 

http://www.tibetinfor.com/en/reports/women/women001.htm

Edited July 6, 2011 by Simplicity Rules

[ralis]

We merely talk about the special breed that come from a truly realized standard of Tantric practice, not the common folk.

 

Having Vajrayana as the national religion is NOT common. It is NOT like having Native American shamanism as ones national tradition and it's not like having Christian puritanicalism as ones conditioned influence. For someone that thinks he's so smart, you can be pretty lack luster in your interpretation of things.

 

You can project all the ignorance that you want. But, you have not read the autobiographies of the very many realized practitioners of this path you so wish to demean into your state of mind. You also don't have memories of having been Tibetan prier to the Chinese invasion. You dear fellow, have no idea what you're on about!

 

Also, generally speaking, the way you experience Tibetans from Tibet directly, is not at all like the way some others might experience them, simply due to the level of conditioned projectioning that you do. Also, the way they've had to acclimatize to this Western culture is just as you would have to acclimatize to their culture, which would not take long, especially for someone as smart and Mensa'd as yourself.

 

Wow, you are unbelievable. Knock, knock!!

 

 

I was referring to Jetsun's statement and not what you are referring to. Please reread my post.

 

What do memories of being Tibetan have to do with this conversation? I almost forgot that you were Tibetan, a giant that built pyramids and dino the dinosaur. Of course that has nothing to do with anything, given the fact that any concept of self is an illusion. Therefor, past lives are not important, except where convenient to use as a status symbol. That really does make you a superior being to all the lowly beings on this forum that attempt to hold a debate with you.

[Vajrahridaya]

Where was your IQ measured? By whom? Anyone can fantasize.

 

Wouldn't that give you premise for dismissing any of my statements.

 

Mine is measured by the standard IQ test... you know, all those colored patterns to decipher, story math questions, etc.

 

This is why they kept trying to put me in AP classes in school and even put me in experimental programs for the gifted when I was in high school, but I was very uninterested, went to 3 different high schools in two different states, was held back due to lost credits from moving around so much and decided to drop out and get my G.E.D. I got into the top 10 percentile in the nation without studying. They gave me the pre-test and I only missed a couple of questions and said I didn't have to come back to study for the main test and then passed that like walking with the wind behind me.

 

I've always tested well, since pre-school. Whatever!

[Vajrahridaya]

I was referring to Jetsun's statement and not what you are referring to. Please reread my post.

 

What do memories of being Tibetan have to do with this conversation? I almost forgot that you were Tibetan, a giant that built pyramids and dino the dinosaur. Of course that has nothing to do with anything, given the fact that any concept of self is an illusion. Therefor, past lives are not important, except where convenient to use as a status symbol. That really does make you a superior being to all the lowly beings on this forum that attempt to hold a debate with you.

 

The individual mind stream is "like" an illusion, it is not exactly an illusion. It's very important on your path to see directly your personal history.

 

If you haven't seen this truth directly, stop bragging about having experience to rely on for your insight, which I see as lacking. You really need to get back to following ChNNR's teachings and read his Precious Vase.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Wouldn't that give you premise for dismissing any of my statements.

 

Mine is measured by the standard IQ test... you know, all those colored patterns to decipher, story math questions, etc.

 

This is why they kept trying to put me in AP classes in school and even put me in experimental programs for the gifted when I was in high school, but I was very uninterested, went to 3 different high schools in two different states, was held back due to lost credits from moving around so much and decided to drop out and get my G.E.D. I got into the top 10 percentile in the nation without studying. They gave me the pre-test and I only missed a couple of questions and said I didn't have to come back to study for the main test and then passed that like walking with the wind behind me.

 

I've always tested well, since pre-school. Whatever!

 

Fine! The only thing I ask is that you correct your grammar, spelling errors and stop being so rebellious about it. Obtain a copy of 'Strunk and White'. You would gain my respect by writing in a clear and comprehensible manner. Express your intelligence well and not in some hurried manner as your posts seem to indicate.

Edited July 6, 2011 by ralis

[goldisheavy]

[goldisheavy]

You would gain my respect by writing in a clear and comprehensible manner. Express your intelligence in a profound way!

 

Really? I am disappointed to hear that. I don't gain respect for people based on their superficial perfections, such as the ability to adhere to linguistic conventions.

 

I respect the English language conventions to a large extent, but there is no way such conventions can be the grounds for proper respect. The role of all language conventions is purely utilitarian. I would even say the English language should be reformed in order to move it closer to a phonetic language. The spelling inconsistencies in the English language are atrocious.

 

I ask people to write more clearly all the time, but I do so not so that I may respect them more, but so that my eyes don't bleed so much. It's for my own utility.

Edited July 6, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

It does not take immense intelligence to conclude that Tibet is no Shangri-la and Buddhism is no perfect religion.

 

Concepts of perfection are always going to come back ugly upon reflection.

 

None the less, I focus on those particular "rare" Tibetans who took the Vajrayana to heart and practiced deeply. I have no illusions about the general atrocities that befall every human being in this realm of Earth. At the same time... if you read the autobiographies of various Tibetan Masters, you get a perspective on things that are uncommon and not biased by afflictive emotions.

 

Also, you mention Hinduism, but Hinduism as it is now is hugely Buddhist influenced even though there is still a cultural clinging to the caste system which the Buddha denounced, and plenty of Taoist lineages are also Buddhist influenced. There is no conceptual structure that is perfect though, there are just those that are more closely nuanced to perfection. Buddhism would be one of them, both methodologically and philosophically. But to see this would require genuine first hand experience. Plenty of Tibetans, actually the vast majority don't even understand their own tradition to a very deep degree. Much like the vast majority of Hindu Indians who only do Puja to their favorite deity for the sake of worldly prosperity and familial allegiance. Yet, at least they are misunderstanding a tradition that is far more clear than many of the Monotheistic interpretations of reality prevalent in the West.

 

China as well... sadly corrupted by it's government, still has many hidden gems that are indeed rare, but those rare gems I think are more highly polished than the spiritual gems that can be found in the West at this time, for the most part, though there is Kabbalah, the mystic Christians and Sufi's... But, those traditions are largely either secret or lost in antiquity. I mean, TCM, Ayurveda and over 1,000 years ago there was a Doctors university in Tibet which brought together the major traditional medicines and astrology's from East to West, and they even performed brain and heart surgery in Tibet up until well over 1,000 years ago, pre-Buddhism. Anyway, it all depends upon what you focus on, and what your karmic connections based upon your mind streams historical activity allows you to experience directly. I mean, I've seen a person walk through a place and catch everybody in the entire crowd at a bad moment, and have an entirely different experience from myself of the same people, simply due to timing.

[ralis]

Really? I am disappointed to hear that. I don't gain respect for people based on their superficial perfections, such as the ability to adhere to linguistic conventions.

 

I respect the English language conventions to a large extent, but there is no way such conventions can be the grounds for proper respect. The role of all language conventions is purely utilitarian. I would even say the English language should be reformed in order to move it closer to a phonetic language. The spelling inconsistencies in the English language are atrocious.

 

I ask people to write more clearly all the time, but I do so not so that I may respect them more, but so that my eyes don't bleed so much. It's for my own utility.

 

I understand what you mean. However, I really enjoy writing that is clear and as precise as possible. I dislike reading poorly written posts that are confusing and need interpretation. I was just trying to give Vajraji a little encouragement, which is probably to no avail.

[goldisheavy]

I understand what you mean. However, I really enjoy writing that is clear and as precise as possible. I dislike reading poorly written posts that are confusing and need interpretation. I was just trying to give Vajraji a little encouragement, which is probably to no avail.

 

I hear you. I enjoy ice cream. But if you give me a box of ice cream I am not going to respect you more. Is respect really that cheap? Perhaps it is. Yes, I guess that's one of the main reasons why I don't care about respect to begin with.

 

If I respect someone, it's more likely because I respect what that person stands for, I respect that person's highest aspirations and the personal integrity with which one pursues one's dreams.

Edited July 6, 2011 by goldisheavy

[Jetsun]

Guilt and shame exist in every culture, how it is directed is the only thing that changes. This notion that Buddhism needs to be watered down or that Westerners are not capable of understanding the premises of Eastern Religion is nothing more than racism and bigotry at its finest.

 

If a teaching is founded upon truth, then anyone who hears it can know it and understand it.

 

Aaron

 

It's nothing to do with bigotry it's called skilful means, people like the Dalai Lama realise that the western mind is more scientific minded so the teaching is presented more in that manner and with fewer cultural trappings which could be a barrier for understandng.

 

Yes guilt and shame are everywhere but the difference is that in Christian culture they look at a child and call him a sinner before he even knows how to talk, while in Buddhist culture they would say that child is a little Buddha. Plus all the ideas of burning in hell etc if you put a foot wrong all permeate western culture and psychology in many deep subtle ways even if most people aren't practising Christians any more. I never said Tibet was perfect I was saying that countries such as Bhutan are healthier psychologically than most western countries, you only have to look at the mental health statistics to see that. The world health organisation did a study where they found that in many third world developing countries you are twice as likely to recover from schizophrenia than you are in countries like the US despite the medical care, they said that was likely to do with the lack of stigma and shame around such problems and community support, plus we have double the levels of things like bipolar etc etc etc. I'm not talking about idolising Tibet rather recognising the sickness within our own culture.

[Aaron]

It's nothing to do with bigotry it's called skilful means, people like the Dalai Lama realise that the western mind is more scientific minded so the teaching is presented more in that manner and with fewer cultural trappings which could be a barrier for understandng.

 

Yes guilt and shame are everywhere but the difference is that in Christian culture they look at a child and call him a sinner before he even knows how to talk, while in Buddhist culture they would say that child is a little Buddha. Plus all the ideas of burning in hell etc if you put a foot wrong all permeate western culture and psychology in many deep subtle ways even if most people aren't practising Christians any more. I never said Tibet was perfect I was saying that countries such as Bhutan are healthier psychologically than most western countries, you only have to look at the mental health statistics to see that. The world health organisation did a study where they found that in many third world developing countries you are twice as likely to recover from schizophrenia than you are in countries like the US despite the medical care, they said that was likely to do with the lack of stigma and shame around such problems and community support, plus we have double the levels of things like bipolar etc etc etc. I'm not talking about idolising Tibet rather recognising the sickness within our own culture.

 

 

Yes, but that's not Western culture so much as it is religion. I don't think the majority of people (at least non-christians) believe that children are sinners, I know I don't. I think you're pushing one segment of the society's beliefs on everyone, which is not accurate. In regards to mental illness, I agree, but in many cultures schizophrenia is seen as a gift. Mental illness is stigmatized here, but it is also stigmatized in many eastern countries, China and Japan for instance. So rather than go on forever I'll just state my point, which is this, in general mental illness is related to stress, when a person experiences a great amount of stress, then they are more likely to suffer from mental illness. This is what they're finding in Japan and other Asian countries like China, so perhaps the key to mental health is really stress management, rather than blaming cultures and such?

 

Aaron

 

edit- A little bit about bipolar, the diagnosis for many mental illnesses are set up in such a way that if someone really wants to diagnose someone, they can. Bipolar is perhaps one of the worst of these. You're moody, suffering from bouts of depression, and irritable, well it's not that you lost your job, obviously you are bipolar. Lets get you on medicine that will earn the pharmaceutical companies and psychologists LOTS of money. End of rant.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Intelligence does not matter, it's wisdom that matters.

 

Aaron

Edited July 6, 2011 by Twinner

[Mark Saltveit]

The best religion is no religion. Religions and isms are bits of truth tied up with string and doled out by self-appointed leaders trying to monopolize it.

[mat black]

Just like the chant of metta, the following piece also has an all encompassing scope and is accessable to anyone whether religious or secular.

 

Dedication of Merit/Compassionate and Wise by Rev. Heng Sure

 

May every living being,

Our minds as one and radiant with light,

Share the fruits of peace

With hearts of goodness, luminous and bright.

If people hear and see,

How hands and hearts can find in giving, unity,

May their minds awake,

To Great Compassion, wisdom and to joy.

 

May kindness find reward,

May all who sorrow leave their grief and pain;

May this boundless light,

Break the darkness of their endless night.

 

Because our hearts are one,

This world of pain turns into Paradise,

May all become compassionate and wise,

May all become compassionate and wise.

 

info about the chant and audio is here:

 

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma9/merit.html

[Vajrahridaya]

Nice Matt, a practice of the 4 Immeasurables.

[thelerner]

Hmnn, like martial arts I feel the best has more to do with the teacher (or preacher) then the art. A great religious leader will teach and exemplify the best in humanity. A bad one will show superstition, artifice and smallness.

 

There are so many differences between congregations of the same faith that its often unwise to prejudge them and there flocks.

[mat black]

I've noticed that negativity is easy to fall into, among other things it can range from arguing with others as well being scathingly self critical. So I found some timely helpers from the book Change of Heart- The Bodhsattva Peace Training of Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche:

 

Don't burden others with your expectations. Understanding their limitations can inspire compassion instead of disapointment, ensuring beneficial and workable relationships.......

Try to resist responding negatively to difficult situations. Every moment of miserliness, hatred, jealousy or pride drives you more deeply into suffering. These poisons only further obscure the crystal, your inherent perfection. Instead, cultivate acceptance and contentment.

 

In regard to religious tradition or objects of faith, he says this:

 

.....Carefully determine which path works best for you. Each religion has it's own complete tradition, with it's own qualities. Spiritual traditions originate in response to the suffering of beings in a particular time and place. Each offers an approach that answers the needs of various kinds of people. Just as one meditation won't cure one hundred differnt people, the same spiritual path won't be suitable for everyone.

The Buddha taught 84,000 different methods for training the mind because he saw that there are 84,000 different ways to be confused.....

 

I noticed on the media here and other places when it comes to multiculturalism, or multi-religious societies or a forum like this TTB, we don't celebrate the similarities enough, and rather than 'respecting' the differences we often argue about them instead.

 

From Chagdud Tulkus' book again:

........Don't criticse or judge others' paths. It's a mistake to think that yours is the best or only way. Although the basic purposse of religion is to help people, attachment to yours and aversion to others will only cause divisiveness and conflict.

We must be careful not to wear the badge of our own spiritual tradition by preaching, judging or imposing our ideas on others. In the long run, each and every religion that teaches the value of extending kindness and refraining from harm benefits those that sincerely follow it.

 

Yeah, so I kinda like that book, it's a real gem with heaps of helpful tips on life.

[doc benway]

Hmnn, like martial arts I feel the best has more to do with the teacher (or preacher) then the art. A great religious leader will teach and exemplify the best in humanity. A bad one will show superstition, artifice and smallness.

 

There are so many differences between congregations of the same faith that its often unwise to prejudge them and there flocks.

Similarly, it may have more to do with the student than either the tradition or the teacher.

The great student will find a way to learn, no way around it.

The great teacher cannot help a poor student.

A great tradition is empty without teacher and student.

 

BTW, I don't subscribe to the concept of "best"