What is the best religion?

[orb]

 

p.s. Oh yeah, and Chinese Taoist Masters like Wang Liping as well!! Though I don't understand why he charges so much.

 

 

'cause he is on the "TRUTH" side - not on the "COMPASIONATE" path like the buddhists...

Edited July 13, 2011 by orb

[宁]

'cause he is on the "TRUTH" side - not on the "COMPASIONATE" path like the buddhists...

i hope this is a joke, lest i would change the good impression i have about you

[Jetsun]

'cause he is on the "TRUTH" side - not on the "COMPASIONATE" path like the buddhists...

 

In 'Opening the Dragon Gate' Wan Liping talks about compassion quite a lot and it's relation to virtue, plus he had to learn much Buddhism as part of his training and if I rightly remember he said something along the lines that that Buddhism was talking about the same truths as Taoism but in a different way. So yeah I agree it is strange why he charges so much.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Jetsun

[Vajrahridaya]

In 'Opening the Dragon Gate' Wan Liping talks about compassion quite a lot and it's relation to virtue, plus he had to learn much Buddhism as part of his training and if I rightly remember he said something along the lines that that Buddhism was talking about the same truths as Taoism but in a different way. So yeah I agree it is strange why he charges so much.

 

That book really inspired me! It made me really want to meet Wang Liping, but damn... I'm not a millionaire, nor am I even a thousandanaire. LOL!

[thelerner]

So yeah I agree it is strange why he charges so much.

 

Well look at it this way. He can charge an exorbitant amount which insures the number of people studying is limited and motivated. Or he can charge very little say $25 a class and knock out 99.999% of all applicants cause he only likes to teach 20 or so (?my guess) at a time.

 

Either way, if he only wants to teach limited classes and raise up a cadre of talented long time students, he's not going to be easy to study with. Going the Healing Tao way is fine, but it opens the door to a whole mess of problems. His solution may not please you, but it may be the best. Charge high, but keep hold of the great students.

Edited July 13, 2011 by thelerner

[Vajrahridaya]

Well look at it this way. He can charge an exorbitant amount which insures the number of people studying is limited and motivated. Or he can charge very little say $25 a class and knock out 99.999% of all applicants cause he only likes to teach 20 or so (?my guess) at a time.

 

Either way, if he only wants to teach limited classes and raise up a cadre of talented long time students, he's not going to be easy to study with. Going the Healing Tao way is fine, but it opens the door to a whole mess of problems. His solution may not please you, but it may be the best. Charge high, but keep hold of the great students.

 

Hmmm, interesting. Either that or it's just his foundation that does the charging. Sometimes a great master sets up a foundation that runs the finances and politics, and the foundation runs away with itself and the Master having given legal rights over to the foundation, doesn't really have a say in the matter anymore?

 

But yes, your idea might be spot on, I don't know enough about him to say "this is so."

[orb]

i hope this is a joke, lest i would change the good impression i have about you

 

Lol, pls don't change that !!!.... u r the only one left on with a good impression about me, even my own mom hates me since I was born.....

[Jetsun]

Coming back to what is the best religion this is a view of G.I. Gurdjieff who studied with many masters from many traditions and spent much time in Tibet studying with high Lama's:

 

"Gurdjieff says that the Christian religion in its early days was perhaps the best of all forms of organised religion so far invented; that the founders of what became the Catholic Church, who introduced the ritual and liturgy, understood the principles of the effect on the senses and the emotions, of colours through stained glass, of the music, of the pressure of the volume of air, of the lines and form of the architecture: they understood and used all this for the good of the worshippers. The effects were consciously and mathematically calculated."

- 'Teachings of Gurdjieff: A Pupil's Journal' C.S. Nott

 

Of course now the Christian religion has been corrupted and nearly all of it's wisdom has been lost but small secretive groups of initiates kept the real esoteric knowledge alive who knew how to use architecture, light, sound and atmosphere as conscious objective art to put people into receptive states to open to the spiritual. Examples of these groups are the builders who built some of the Gothic cathedral's during the European 'dark ages'

 

Gurdjieff had great respect for Tibetan Buddhism but regarded it as the way of a monk, so you had to take a monk's attitude and spend much of your life in retreat to get the most of out it, while with the teachings which he believed formed the original Christianity (originating from Egypt before Christ) are meant to be conducted in the midst of life and not in retreat, so therefore is the best for the masses who practically can't commit to a monks life.

[Vajrahridaya]

Coming back to what is the best religion this is a view of G.I. Gurdjieff who studied with many masters from many traditions and spent much time in Tibet studying with high Lama's:

 

"Gurdjieff says that the Christian religion in its early days was perhaps the best of all forms of organised religion so far invented; that the founders of what became the Catholic Church, who introduced the ritual and liturgy, understood the principles of the effect on the senses and the emotions, of colours through stained glass, of the music, of the pressure of the volume of air, of the lines and form of the architecture: they understood and used all this for the good of the worshippers. The effects were consciously and mathematically calculated."

- 'Teachings of Gurdjieff: A Pupil's Journal' C.S. Nott

 

Of course now the Christian religion has been corrupted and nearly all of it's wisdom has been lost but small secretive groups of initiates kept the real esoteric knowledge alive who knew how to use architecture, light, sound and atmosphere as conscious objective art to put people into receptive states to open to the spiritual. Examples of these groups are the builders who built some of the Gothic cathedral's during the European 'dark ages'

 

Gurdjieff had great respect for Tibetan Buddhism but regarded it as the way of a monk, so you had to take a monk's attitude and spend much of your life in retreat to get the most of out it, while with the teachings which he believed formed the original Christianity (originating from Egypt before Christ) are meant to be conducted in the midst of life and not in retreat, so therefore is the best for the masses who practically can't commit to a monks life.

 

I don't agree. Vajrayana was not originally created for or by monks at all, but for and by lay-practitioners as a way to manifest enlightenment during the physical activities of life.

[Jetsun]

I don't agree. Vajrayana was not originally created for or by monks at all, but for and by lay-practitioners as a way to manifest enlightenment during the physical activities of life.

 

Perhaps you don't have to be a monk but from my understanding long retreats often years at a time are encouraged as a way to gain significant realisations to bring back into daily life. Is doing an hour or two meditation a day with a week or two retreat in a year enough to really gain a deep realisation? are there many masters who didn't do such long retreats before cementing their wisdom ? most of the stories I have read of Buddhist masters usually involve long periods of seclusion in meditation.

[Vajrahridaya]

Perhaps you don't have to be a monk but from my understanding long retreats often years at a time are encouraged as a way to gain significant realisations to bring back into daily life. Is doing an hour or two meditation a day with a week or two retreat in a year enough to really gain a deep realisation? are there many masters who didn't do such long retreats before cementing their wisdom ? most of the stories I have read of Buddhist masters usually involve long periods of seclusion in meditation.

 

I do agree with that. But the goal of Vajrayana is much deeper than in Christianity as a whole. Then again, there are the Christian mystics and they all went on extensive retreats and most if not all were celibate monks. There aren't really any or any that I know of, lay practitioner Christians that are or were even way back when as highly realized as the Tantric masters of India during the same time 2,000 years ago.

 

Maybe there were, but they sure didn't share any teachings, either that or they're gone with the wind.

[Vmarco]

[Jetsun]

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Tilopa, a self-lit siddha, is a "father" of one of the Vajrayana lineages.

 

How was he self lit?

 

He independently originated enlightenment without inter-dependent influence?

 

That's not true...

From Wiki:

 

Life

 

Tilopa was born into the brahmin (priestly) caste – according to some sources, a royal family – but he adopted the monastic life upon receiving orders from a dakini (female buddha whose activity is to inspire practitioners) who told him to adopt a mendicant and itinerant existence. From the beginning, she made it clear to Tilopa that his real parents were not the persons who had raised him, but instead were primordial wisdom and universal voidness. Advised by the dakini, Tilopa gradually took up a monk’s life, taking the monastic vows and becoming an erudite scholar. The frequent visits of his dakini teacher continued to guide his spiritual path and close the gap to enlightenment.

 

He began to travel throughout India, receiving teachings from many gurus:

 

from Saryapa he learned of inner heat (Sanskrit: caṇḍalī, Tib. tummo, inner heat);

from Nagarjuna he received the radiant light (Sanskrit: prabhasvara) and illusory body (Sanskrit: maya deha, Tib. gyulu) teachings (refer Chakrasamvara Tantra), Lagusamvara tantra, or Heruka Abhidharma);

from Lawapa, the dream yoga;

from Sukhasiddhi, the teachings on life, death, and the bardo (between life states, and consciousness transference) (phowa);

from Indrabhuti, he learned of insight (prajna);

and from Matangi, the resurrection of the dead body.

 

During a meditation, he received a vision of Buddha Vajradhara and, according to legend, the entirety of mahamudra was directly transmitted to Tilopa. After having received the transmission, Tilopa embarked on a wandering existence and started to teach. He appointed Naropa, his most important student, as his successor.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Vmarco]

[Vajrahridaya]

Tilopa was self-lit, a Tathagata,...just as Buddha, although through the help of the dakini Sujata, who feed and instructed him on the Middle Path. Buddha was self-lit.

 

The Lineages, who have invented much of the stories in print, do so to protect and perpetuate their Long Path attachments. Did Tilopa say, my teachers were Saryapa, Nagarjuna, etc,...no,...he said, "clear light cannot be revealed by the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises, of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka; clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals."

 

I'm not saying that the Lineages are not helpful,...but be cautious of those who say the journey is long and difficult,...be especially cautious of those who speak of ineffableness, for they have not uncovered their light, and do not want their students to uncover it either.

 

 

 

Buddha wasn't self lit either, he learned all the stages of meditation from form to formless from his 2 Hindu masters. I think this is a misinterpretation of "become a light onto yourselves" as you attain realization through yes, self recognition of your own nature, but it's always due to positive influence from outside which is reflective of your inner process, that this idea even takes place in the mind stream.

 

Plenty who attain very high states in this life have done work in previous lives. Though of course, liberation through Tantra is available in this lifetime due to the process of transformation being more immediate than renunciation.

I am a Dzogchenpa so the path of self liberation in the moment is considered faster than the paths of renunciation and transformation, even though one may integrate the first two while maintaining the self liberated view.

 

But, there is no such thing as independent origination, also to equate teacher/student relationships as a long path is erroneous. Look at all of the Buddhas students who attained very high states of realization and look at Tilopas students as well, and so on and so forth. As well with Padmasambhava.

 

Also, how do you know the information is fabricated? Can you read Tibetan directly? Though maybe there are some existent sanskrit texts to reference in Nepal? I'm not sure if your ideas are more in the hopes to reify your view of "Self-lit" or from actual scholarship with credential.

 

Tilopa promised Pure Awareness in one lifetime, in one moment of a life time. That is the real essence of Vajrayana. as Gurdjieff implied,...the way of the ascetic takes 1000 lifetimes, the way of the monk a 100 lifetimes, the way of a yogi 10 lifetimes, but the Sly Person on the Short Path can awaken within 1 lifetime.

 

V

 

It's always maintained that one can attain liberation in one lifetime through Tantra, though it can take as long as 7 lifetimes. There might be different interpretations here and there, but that's the interpretation I'm aware of. In Dzogchen they say it can take as long as 3 to 5 I think? But it's available in 1 lifetime if you are sincere.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Vajrahridaya

[Ulises]

Each religion has helped mankind. Paganism increased in man the light of beauty, the largeness and height of his life, his aim at a many-sided perfection; Christianity gave him some vision of divine love and charity; Buddhism has shown him a noble way to be wiser, gentler, purer, Judaism and Islam how to be religiously faithful in action and zealously devoted to God; Hinduism has opened to him the largest and profoundest spiritual possibilities. A great thing would be done if all these God-visions could embrace and cast themselves into each other; but intellectual dogma and cult egoism stand in the way.

~Sri Aurobindo(Essays in Philosophy and Yoga, p.211)

[Vmarco]

Each religion has helped mankind. ~Sri Aurobindo(Essays in Philosophy and Yoga, p.211)

 

From the vajrayana point of view, all religion is a distraction, because there is no religion through which Awakening can occur.

 

As Osho said, "certainly it has given consulation, but consulation is not the right thing,...consulation is opium,...it keeps you unaware of reality..."

[Vmarco]

Buddha wasn't self lit either, he learned all the stages of meditation from form to formless from his 2 Hindu masters. I think this is a misinterpretation of "become a light onto yourselves" as you attain realization through yes, self recognition of your own nature, but it's always due to positive influence from outside which is reflective of your inner process, that this idea even takes place in the mind stream.

 

But, there is no such thing as independent origination, also to equate teacher/student relationships as a long path is erroneous. Look at all of the Buddhas students who attained very high states of realization and look at Tilopas students as well, and so on and so forth. As well with Padmasambhava.

 

Also, how do you know the information is fabricated? Can you read Tibetan directly? Though maybe there are some existent sanskrit texts to reference in Nepal? I'm not sure if your ideas are more in the hopes to reify your view of "Self-lit" or from actual scholarship with credential.

 

 

It could be argued that Shakyamuni was not self-lit,...considering the instruction from Sujata, which was needed for Siddhartha to unlearn the meditation techniques received by his Hindu teachers. According to Tilopa, a key to awakening in a single lifetime, is non-meditation.

 

Basically, Short Path meditation is an activity that "tags" thoughts as thoughts so to gain access into thoughtlessness, which only occurs through effortlessness,...kind of like the "don't think of a pink elephant."

 

To me, nothing is ineffible. Those who speak of things as being ineffible, are simply ignorant,...first, because they haven't uncovered the threshold, and two, apparently don't wish for others to uncover it.

 

Maitreya, the Coming Buddha, born within a Red Hat family, is said to realize enlightenment (uncover her Light) in a single day.

 

I generally agree with much of what you wrote. And no, I do not read Tibetan. However, I did translate Tilopa's Mahamudra about 30 years ago.

 

The Ultimate Teaching - a translation by Vicente Marco

1.The Ultimate Teaching cannot be taught through the senses,

however, by metamorphesizing a winged inner sense,

metasensory Gnowing can reveal,

this mystery to the Heart of our Essence.

 

2.Space is not understood, but merely perceived as That,

which is filled and unfilled with form;

the Ultimate Teaching is not dependent on object-ivity,

the Whole can only be realized through Wholeness.

 

3.can a hole be defined by what's around it?

that's not describing the hole;

likewise, Wholeness is unrecognized outside itself,

concepts and forms obscured through illusion.

 

4.to have a center there must be an edge,

as the ambits dissolve, the center disperses with it;

the here becomes meaningless without a there,

then the truth of Mind is no longer unfamiliar.

 

5.what shape and colour is a banana?

absorbing all spectral light and reflecting yellow doesn't make it yellow,

while under a microscope, neither has it a shape, until we think one is there;

the Mind's essence is beyond shape and form.

 

6.the predispositions of a thousand eons is incapable

of concealing the Still HeartLight of Life;

similiarly, the self-imposed cycle of suffering has no power

to cloak the HeartLight of Mind's Essence.

 

7.there is no void nor vaccum in space,

it is either defined or undefined;

although the true essence of Mind is Light,

that StillCauselessLight cannot be seen, only gnown.

 

8.the essence of Mind resembles space,

in that it embraces all that is perceived;

Rest, and Be a Silent Witness,

for through Love's Stillness, all worlds dissolve.

 

9.look at the body/form through a microscope,

the Mind which you do not see, transcends that Duality;

Rest Effortlessly upon the hidden jewel that's you,

Letting Go of object-iveness uncovers the Ultimate Teaching.

 

10.the HeartLight of the Ultimate Teaching cannot be revealed

through New Age discourses or preceptual Scriptures,

neither from the Mantravada, Paramitas or Tripitaka;

the HeartLight of Mind is shrouded by concepts and whimsy's.

 

11.attachment to morals or immorals cloaks HeartLight's resplendence,

yet by holding ones tongue still, the intellect quiets its fears and hopes;

then the Causeless fulcrum is embraced,

and the efforts of Duality's struggling seesaw vanish.

 

12.free from the bondage of beliefs,

the fiction of discourse and Scripture become apparent;

the Ultimate Teaching unbounds the bonds of self-repression,

useless suffering and useless pleasure fad away,

and the DiamondLight of the Ultimate Teaching glistens authentically.

 

13.ancestral fear driven zealots deride the Ultimate Teaching,

theirs is a life not experienced directly,

always viewed from a predisposed past and anticipatory future;

Real Compassion and Teachers do not avoid,

when either touches your Heart, ecstasy will unfurl.

 

14.Joy is realized only by Letting Go of the desire for Joy;

desires arise from ordinary knowledge,

they want for things which are not;

In Reality, everything already is.

 

15.transcending the effects of Duality, all struggle ceases,

the Still Nowness of Life reveals the HeartLight of Mind;

embraced by zero, the origin of ecstasy

where fear filled pasts and hope laden futures never existed.

 

16.Mind and Truth are synonymous

to seek truth is to believe there is a lie;

the intent of a path is to get, not to Let Go.

 

17.Enslaved to illusion and its transient conditions,

Duality, is like a projection on a theaters screen;

belief in the dream entanges the believer in a space-time construct,

yet nature's melody does not exist outside of things.

 

18.renouncing all social and moral rules,

liking nothing, hating nothing, and repiring in amoral innocense;

aware of Effortlessness is the Sly Man's way to uncovering who we are;

walking without footprints, the Ultimate Teaching is realized.

 

19.we divide life into self and not self,

the here and there, subject and object;

and then try to intregrate illusion with reality;

Enlightenment is the awareness that there is no Duality.

 

20.Light is not seen, only the conditions which keep it obscure are seen;

the Light at the Heart of Essence has no beginning nor end;

zero dimension, razer of logic, is the Holder of the Whole,

through Original Mind, the illusion of motion is evident.

 

21.Truth is not a path, but a Stillness,

a passivity not realized through concepts;

concepts are derived and inferred from perception,

perception validates only illusion, not Truth.

 

22.there is nothing to discover, but only to uncover,

positive and negative do not exist outside intellect;

all situations are neutral and impersonal,

in CauselessNowness the Ultimate Teaching becomes clear.

 

23.Perception sees itself as the center of the universe

blindly seeking a complete unification with separation;

identification with the universe is an attachment to the dream.

 

24.Divested cogitation can gaze upon the Original Thought,

divesting useless suffering invites Peace,

divesting useless happiness welcomes Love;

fear clings to past as hope clings to future.

 

25.The nature of a river meanders, reposes, curves and winds,

yet because Nowness is believed to be useless,

predisposition demands that the current follow you, instead of you flow-ing with it,

through that behavior, fulfillment remains elusive.

 

26.Triggering transformational experience is not difficult;

Connected Breathing, when activated, can jump-start an atrophied thymus,

Fixed Gazes, with auric vision, can open time to be seen as one,

holding the tongue still, can bring Stillnes to thought.

 

27.Through unfeigned surrender, HeartLight itself, resplendently springs its metanoia;

clear rapture coalesces from tranquility and insight,

a continuum of awakenings dawn real Compassion,

thus Birthing Human Beingness;

Ascension is merely the Letting Go of the descension.

 

28.Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon,

Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion,

You will quickly gain mundane power and suprem enlightenment.

May this Ultimate Teaching,

Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings.

 

V

[Vajrahridaya]

To me, nothing is ineffible. Those who speak of things as being ineffible, are simply ignorant,...first, because they haven't uncovered the threshold, and two, apparently don't wish for others to uncover it.

 

I agree that those that think there is an ineffable self defining force that is unknowable are not teaching the path to liberation.

[TzuJanLi]

[Vmarco]