Buddhist-Human-Omnivore

[JesusHeist]

I identify myself as a Buddhist. No particular denomination. I didn't so much "convert" to Buddhism, but a few years ago I discovered that my "unique" point of view was shared by countless others around the world for centuries. Then I found direction and focus. But enough of that on to the point.

The only thing I cannot accept is being an herbivore. I tried it, but one day I was eating a salad and contemplating the interconnectedness of ALL life. I had, what I consider to be, an awakening. With blantant profundity it became crystal clear. That I am equally connected to a single grain of rice as to every fish in the ocean. The destuction of life for my existence is a given for this stage of homo-sapian development. We are, by evolution or intelligent design, omnivores. I've come to the point I believe that veganism is a feel good move for the conscious mind so we can feel as though we've outgrown conditioned existence. But, for me at least, this clinging to idealism for the sake of ego became a struggle. Of course true to Buddhism, this obstacle was also a profound learning experience.

But then again, what do I know I'm just a phone tech from Texas.

 

Any thoughts on the matter please let me know. Even if it's just to say you think I'm full of shit.

[freeform]

Birth and death are parts of a natural cycle... the birth and death of another animal or plant is natural... even if it was born and died with the intent that it is going to be eaten.

 

I dont tend to eat meat from large meat factories which in my view completely defy the natural cycle... If i'm gonna eat a cow I want to know that the cow eat grass, saw the sun and was able to move, wasn't pumped full of hormones and antibiotics etc... before I eat anything I have a little ritual where I give thanks for the spirit of the animal (or plant) and all the people and natural cycles that brought the food to me... so that it can return untormented back into the earth.

[thelerner]

I'm a fellow omnivore. I think eating meat is a moral weakness. Its number 4 on my list of 136.

 

I've got veggie friends. Some have long ethical, biological and social defenses. A girl I went out w/ summed it up well and simply, "Don't hurt things that you don't have to". Thus she didn't eat meat or wear leather.

 

The 'plant feels pain' argument is extraordinarily weak. Even those who can make it with a straight faced have to admit that a pound of beef is gotten through eating a dozen of pounds of plant life.

 

So, I guess I'm saying, feel the love, share the guilt, pass the mistreated, slighted rotted, carbonized animal flesh.

 

Michael

[JesusHeist]

I would hardly see it as a moral weakness. We are mammals just because the feces slinging is more figurative than literal, it doesn't mean we are entirely evolved. To me acceptance of this is a spiritual transformation, awakening, satori, mental trick for removing ego from the equation or whatever prefunctory label you wish to attach. Nonetheless this is my model of the universe, everyone has a differrent model and they organize the world according to enviroment, genetic imprints and subsequent conditioning. Enough of that I digress.

My views on the matter are based on the principle that all life is connected. Buddha said existence and non existence are the same. Another qoute I love is from a Zen Master:

 

the heaven, the earth and I

are of the same root

the ten-thousand things and I

are of one substance

 

For the most part my views and philosophies are in a constant state of flux. Due to the fact I am far from the certitude afforded by enlightenment I must constantly try to evolve my understanding or stagnate and die. At least those seem to be the to choices or is it simply in western society we cling despretly to dualitys. Either/ Or Aristotalian logic structure. Well look at that I rattled off half cocked for long enough and I gave myself something to think about.

I guess it lends credence to the theory of a thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter long enough thing, huh.

[freeform]

For the most part my views and philosophies are in a constant state of flux. Due to the fact I am far from the certitude afforded by enlightenment I must constantly try to evolve my understanding or stagnate and die.

 

I personally agree with you... It's such a human trait to make the impermanent permanent... nature never stops, the universe never stops... but we try to stop the bits that make us comfortble...

 

if the time comes when I feel it would be more usefull to be vegiterian, then I will... at the moment, I dont... and I'm not worried about it.

[Lozen]

The 'plant feels pain' argument is extraordinarily weak. Even those who can make it with a straight faced have to admit that a pound of beef is gotten through eating a dozen of pounds of plant life.

 

Just as a single vegetables is gotten through eating thousands of bugs.

[mYTHmAKER]

Poets

are often

eaten alive;

their flesh

can be

quite tender.

 

At one time

I ate dead bodies

with the

best of them,

never fully

understanding

the implications

and

the pain

of how

they arrived

at my table.

 

Then one day

the desire,

to eat

empty houses

of souls who

have left

or been

forced to

evacuate,

was gone.

 

What to do?

 

With no

effort,

not knowing

how or why;

just as

some people

no longer

wish to work,

brush their teeth,

exercise,

or

swim in the sea

in dead of winter,

my desire left me.

 

What to do?

 

I imagine

human beings

as quite tasty

and would

just as soon

eat

a cow,

a cat,

a dog,

a pig,

as a poet.

So why the fuss.

 

Sometimes

I wake up

in a cold sweat

to the sounds

of vegetables

screaming!

 

What to do?

[neimad]

whatever.

 

 

it's all just the same energy anyway......

[Cameron]

It's a big one for the board right now. For me personally, I tried vegetarian for 2 weeks . Now I do mostly vegetarian with a little meat or eggs. Smile used a good example if your not prepared to slice a cows throat or cut off a chickens head how can you eat it? My present response to this is to eat much less meat than before and eat a lot more natural foods.

 

I don't know about karmic reprecussions or any of that. It's a personal call.

[neimad]

I don't know about karmic reprecussions or any of that. It's a personal call.

 

exactly....

 

it's ALL about perspective.

 

just the same energy.

 

different expression.... same energy. none of it EVER dies.

Edited June 21, 2006 by neimad

[...]

Though I agree with you about being an omnivore... (heaven and earth treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs...[my fav. quote, I guess...]) or, as chuang tzu pointed out, there is as much 'tao' in a piece of shit as there is in ablade of grass or a cow.

The only way, I believe, meat can be bad for you, in a spiritual sense, is if you feel guilty when you eat it. that is why, I think, some taoists pray to their food before they eat it.

 

...There is an interesting point to makewhen it comes to eating meat and spiritual advancement. Many schools believe that eating meat 'bogs down' the body to a more base nature, and, I guess, inhibits chi-flow or something whatever. (does anybody really know what this new-age theory is in more detail?)

there are others who believe that you somehow take in the karma of whatever you eat.. the big examplebeing, a cowlives and is butchered in a very inhumane manner... and the consequent bad karma passes onto you through ingestion of the meat. (I think this one is, clearly, bullshit.)

[Smile]

Yep, people come and go with the same type of statements:

 

"As long as I don't have any negative feelings about my actions..."

"Karma is bullshit..."

"Meat or plants- the same energy..."

 

The Path is already walked through by so many masters. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Your mind will tell you otherwise so you can justify your way of living. But at the end of your life you shouldn't be surprised when you realize you are still looking for answers.

[Lozen]

What I've noticed is that the "enlightened" "spiritual" "elite" "advanced" "masters" who don't eat meat are airy fairy and spaced out all the time.

 

Way to spread the buzz.

[neimad]

Yep, people come and go with the same type of statements:

 

"As long as I don't have any negative feelings about my actions..."

"Karma is bullshit..."

"Meat or plants- the same energy..."

 

The Path is already walked through by so many masters. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. Your mind will tell you otherwise so you can justify your way of living. But at the end of your life you shouldn't be surprised when you realize you are still looking for answers.

 

 

whatever.

[thelerner]

I should clarify. I think its a moral weakness for Me, because it goes against one of my internal philosophies, ie the simple one of 'don't hurt things unneccesarily'. I think what comes out of a persons mouth has more influence on their karma (path?) then what goes into it.

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and if Buddha was alive today, he'd xxx a xxx

Edited June 22, 2006 by thelerner

[Lozen]

own a KFC?

[...]

smile, one of the fundamentals of the spiritual path is 'experiential evidence'.

If I did not go on this, but believed and did what other people told me, I would not even be on the spiritual path-- In fact, I would be a fundamentalist christian.

 

How can we be expected to have such blind faith in such things as ... karma? merit? meat-eating?

 

Perhaps if I had a teacher whom I loved and trusted, only then can I allow myself to have faith in such things. Otherwise, it seems the path of wisdom lies in 'experiential evidence'.

 

until then, my philosophy lies in the tao te ching, and my spiritual practice with my experience.

[neimad]

smile, one of the fundamentals of the spiritual path is 'experiential evidence'.

If I did not go on this, but believed and did what other people told me, I would not even be on the spiritual path-- In fact, I would be a fundamentalist christian.

 

How can we be expected to have such blind faith in such things as ... karma? merit? meat-eating?

 

Perhaps if I had a teacher whom I loved and trusted, only then can I allow myself to have faith in such things. Otherwise, it seems the path of wisdom lies in 'experiential evidence'.

 

until then, my philosophy lies in the tao te ching, and my spiritual practice with my experience.

 

right on.

 

truth can only ever be alluded to in conversation or literature.... it is experience only that gives the real truth.

 

 

the entire multi-verse (god) as a hologram (for a model) exists within every single element. that is, everything is god in it's entirity.

 

in that respect.... if it's ALL the same energy, how can eating a plant or a piece of fruit or a dead animal be any different?

 

how???????

[thelerner]

Its not the 'eating the dead animal' that concerns me. Its the raising in questionable, often crappy (or extremely crappy) conditions, giving it a short unnatural life, then herding it off to a slaughter that it may find emotionally distasteful.

 

That seems worse then picking a carrot out of the ground. Are we really using lessons from quantum physics to bypass personal responsiblity of actualizing a chain of events that cause pain and death to other animals?

 

I eat meat and enjoy it, but do have the sense it is less evolved. I see a sliding scale involved, hunted better then free range, free range better then mega farmed, mega farmed better then mass starvation, mass starvation better then cannibalism, cannibalism better then last nights tofu casserole etc.

 

Michael

[neimad]

Its not the 'eating the dead animal' that concerns me. Its the raising in questionable, often crappy (or extremely crappy) conditions, giving it a short unnatural life, then herding it off to a slaughter that it may find emotionally distasteful.

 

That seems worse then picking a carrot out of the ground.

 

i hear you, and on that level agree entirely....

 

 

but then by those standards we have to call into question modern agricultural and processing practices.

 

can eating vegetables grown with synthetically manufactured fertilisers and sprayed heavily with chemical pesticides killing all the bugs and other things that want to grow in the field.... be any better?

 

it's the same exact thing as eating mass manufactured meat, in my opinion. it's detrimental to the earth and hence the body. there is no life and there is no love presented in the food.

 

and what about processed foods? even foods that would be considered healthy, but then processed in a factory and placed in synthetic plastic packaging?

 

where do we draw the line? what's worse than what? can we even make a distinction?

 

whats the solution? is there one?

 

hmmmm.... dissolution of the matrix?

[thelerner]

We all have to draw it somewhere. Ofcourse I draw a line, that being-face brains and nervous system, then I walk past it. Actually I think mega farming is ultimately a good thing. Without it much of the current population would have to flip coins and heads loses - there life.

 

Its not about the crap and processed food that I willingly and happily eat. There I only hurt myself, yet tingle my taste buds. Its about hurting other animals. Its not human love, but I can't help but think all mammalian mothers feel a sense of love toward their children. I'm willing to call them lesser beings. I declare myself of a higher order then they are, and I have the knife fork and cell phone to prove it, but I'm not so far advanced that I don't see a kinship and connection w/ them.

 

I grow grape tomatoes, and you know what they say when I spray them w/ pesiticides? "Thank you for keeping those nasty bugs off of us. And by the way MORE FERTILIZER", in a chorus of little squeaky voices.

 

Thats what I think they'd say if they had little mouths and if I did spray them. Actually I don't, spray them.

 

So...its 4 out of 136 on my list of guilty things. I'll get a Wendy's single no mayo, instead of a double. I'll go to a farm, scratch a cow behind the ears and have someone else hit it w/ a bat. As I say, unevolved.

 

What can WE do? heck the solution is easy enough. Go vegetarian and buy mostly organic. Its the implementation thats the rub. Trunk posted on an amazingly small super productive home stead. Part of the self sufficiency movement, its a dozen or two posts down.

 

 

Michael

Edited June 23, 2006 by thelerner

[neimad]

We all have to draw it somewhere. Ofcourse I draw a line, that being-face brains and nervous system, then I walk past it. Actually I think mega farming is ultimately a good thing. Without it much of the current population would have to flip coins and heads loses - there life.

 

so not true. mega-farming is a huge part of the earthly problems now occurring (yeah, i spent 3 years studying it at uni... so i got a piece of paper saying i 'know' about these things hahahahaha).

 

there is abundant resources for everyone on this planet and probably a couple of billion more to boot. the problem is in efficiency.

how much of the stuff we eat comes from another country? how many times does it have to be handled before it goes in our mouth? how many machines are needed? how much packaging? these are all UNNECESSARY resources that are being stripped from the land.....

 

if we acted with increasing efficiency then EVERYONE on the planet would have sufficient (and then some) resources to survive abundantly.

 

of course then we wouldn't have the lovely cesspool causing our growth that is occurring now....

 

Its not about the crap and processed food that I willingly and happily eat. There I only hurt myself, yet tingle my taste buds.

 

oh, c'mon!

us mightily evolved humans like to think we are SEPERATE from nature... that we somehow exist outside of it and our actions as an individual don't do anything.

 

ANYTHING that causes damage to ones body, damages the earth. we are an expression of the planet, connected and not seperate. doesn't matter whether it's animal, vegetable or mineral... if it's harmful to us, you bet it's the same to the planet. if it's harmful to the planet, you bet it's harmful to us.

 

 

 

Its about hurting other animals. Its not human love, but I can't help but think all mammalian mothers feel a sense of love toward their children. I'm willing to call them lesser beings. I declare myself of a higher order then they are, and I have the knife fork and cell phone to prove it, but I'm not so far advanced that I don't see a kinship and connection w/ them.

 

it's all interrelated. a vegetarian who eats mass produced vegetables is doing just as much damage to the environment (and all the animals who live within it) as someone who eats the meat.

there is no exepmtion from our actions, none.

 

I grow grape tomatoes, and you know what they say when I spray them w/ pesiticides? "Thank you for keeping those nasty bugs off of us. And by the way MORE FERTILIZER", in a chorus of little squeaky voices.

 

you really think so? you think the bugs don't have a role to play in the life-cycle of the plant? in it's natural evolutionary strategies?

 

i'd love to think of an example that relates to humans, but we are so incredibly stupid so that any example i can give.... has so many exemptions that it's not even worth it.

 

i'll give some anyway:

spraying it with pesticides is akin to us humans washing our bodies with harmful cancer causing chemicals (although so many people do this and then wonder why they are sick that it's ridiculous). if people really got that what they put on their body is making them sick.... if they stopped for just a second and thought about it, who would willingly cover themselves in poison daily? unfortunately due to mass marketing, the brain dead humaton population never considers this and all scratch their heads and donate the money they could spend to buy decent products to crooked cancer research institutions.

 

feeding a plant with fertiliser is akin to pumping a human full of anabolic steriods. sure he'll get nice and big (provided he does the work.... akin to the sun shining on the plant) but will he be good quality? no. his nuts'll shrink, wont be able to father decent kids and end up sickly and wasted away.... but we usually eat the plant before it gets to this point anyway.

fertilisers make a plant grow big, fast.... but it's improperly formed and would be a retard amongst the natural grown community in the long run.

 

 

So...its 4 out of 136 on my list of guilty things.

 

rather than feel guilty, it's time for people who act like they care to actually take responsibility for their actions. guilt goes nowhere if you don't do anything about it.

 

transformation from the inside out, or from the outside in.... but either way transformation occurs with taking responsibility for ones actions.

 

What can WE do? heck the solution is easy enough. Go vegetarian and buy mostly organic. Its the implementation thats the rub.

 

it's all there, it's all taking off. that's the process of evolution..... we make the mistakes. the people who wake up and learn from them get the oppurtunity to evolve, the people who don't die off by the wayside.

 

that's where we are at now, and it's gonna be a big jump to the next level...... it really is get on board or die by the wayside time now.

 

 

 

i may seem harsh but this is what i felt inspired to write so i go with it. honestly i couldn't care less either way anymore.... i've built up the whole routine of watching what i put in my mouth, watching what i put on my body and i know the game so well that i don't need to care about it anymore.

 

anything that happens to me i am 100% responsible for and 100% accountable for.... it's the first step in a long long journey..... and overall it's all just energy and it's all just evolution (or the massively long journey of experience back to the source).

 

evolve or die.

[Smile]

How can we be expected to have such blind faith in such things as ... karma? merit? meat-eating?

 

Perhaps if I had a teacher whom I loved and trusted, only then can I allow myself to have faith in such things. Otherwise, it seems the path of wisdom lies in 'experiential evidence'.

Exactly, have faith until your actions will bring the supporting personal experiences.

[Smile]

in that respect.... if it's ALL the same energy, how can eating a plant or a piece of fruit or a dead animal be any different?

 

how???????

Universaly it's all the same energy. And at that point we wouldn't need to eat. Until then, we need to choose carefully what we put in our bodies.

[mYTHmAKER]

Adverse

additives.

 

Human

life

versus

shelf

life;

dreams

destroyed

by

greed.

 

What

can

we

expect

if

we

sow

seeds

of

dis-ease

in the garden?

 

We eat

fast foods

fast,

without

thought,

foods

canned

frozen

irradiated

dead

de-vitalized,

to the consequences.

 

The time

and

money,

we think

we save,

is lost

to sickness,

and

a

shortened

life

of

lesser

quality.

 

Brainwashed,

we

believe

no one

could,

and

the government

never

would,

allow

anyone

to sell

us

anything

ominous.

 

Innocent,

trusting,

too lazy

to take

responsibility

for

our-selves,

and

set examples

for

our children,

we bury

our heads

in the sand,

foolishly hoping

the bogeyman

will go away

while

our hearts

know the truth:

 

Our body

is

a

field

in

which

the harvest

is

quite

visible.

 

There is no love,

or care,

in fast food.