Difference between 3 qigong styles?

[Niklas]

Hello,

 

What could you tell me about the different results and different effects on the body of the ba-duan-ji (the eight styles movement), the yi-ching-ji(the internal stretching practice), and the shi-shui-kung (the transformation practice) passed down by Bodhidarma? What are the differences? What does one style bring that the other doesn't? There might be some history behind to reveal this? They all originate from the same script that was written 2500years ago, don't they? As they all have the same goal.

 

Thank you.

[fiveelementtao]

Very Good Question. It is very good to know the difference between different practices so that you can know how to best practice them together or not.

 

What did your teacher say when you asked him/her?

[Niklas]

I don't have a teacher yet... But I wish to understand these different styles, to know which one would suit me best. And just out of curiosity. I didn't know that you could mix the different styles together? Wouldn't that be like mixing red wine and white wine together? Or champagne with beer?

Edited February 28, 2011 by Niklas

[Maddie]

I can't really speak about the other two, but ba-duan-ji (8 brocades) is what I do daily, and one of the main parts of my practice. It has a clearing and balancing effect on your meridians and their associated organs. I've found it to be very effective for good physical, mental, and emotional health. Though while I feel its very effective on the meridian/organ level, I don't know if it directly works on the chakras or dan tiens (it could but I dont' know) though since chakras are connected to organs I suppose it can and does in an indirect way.

[joeblast]

8 brocades is more layperson oriented qigong, it was developed as a daily exercise for marshall Yue's army, iirc. iI is a good all around qigong.

 

yjj is more advanced, xsj more advanced still. If you want a good academic outline of them, pick up the YMAA secret of youth book, it covers these two. Generally speaking, yjj is building and raising the fascia and xsj is deep internal "marrow/brain cleansing" that also involves enhancing hormone production through the exercises.

 

The latter two arent something to take lightly, it is said that its dangerous to begin those practices and not complete the training...although "light" yjj, e.g. the massage and beating arent stages where the training is *that* intense that you'd be very likely to run into issues if you only did the training to a very light level and didnt go to the deeper levels, you just wouldnt get the full benefit.

[fiveelementtao]

I didn't know that you could mix the different styles together? Wouldn't that be like mixing red wine and white wine together? Or champagne with beer?

 

Very Good! That is right, which is why I asked whether you had asked a teacher. Some of the practices you mention are pretty high level qigong and should not be learned without a live teacher to guide you... Your question is a very common one recently. I do not know your age, but I assume based on your question that you are a young adult. People nowadays want to try and intellectually figure out certain practices before they "try" a spiritual practice. You are not alone. I get these kinds of questions all the time. "What does this practice do? How long before I see results?" etc.. etc.. It reminds me of how someone searches the internet or ebay for a product. They want to know all the details before they buy. I am increasingly getting the feeling that teenagers and young adults see spiritual practices like products that they are shopping for on the internet... This is a very recent phenomenon. I believe it is a result of the internet age. teenagers and 20 something-ers have never lived without access to instant communication. So, this is understandable.

 

However, I have found that it is much better to simply pick a teacher and a practice that you feel drawn to and experience a practice first. No matter how much intellectual info you get about a practice, you will not know what the practice really is like until you do it. I do not think you will be able to figure out what a practice does ahead of time... Until recently (past 10 years or so) people used to ask about how good certain teachers were, because it was assumed that the quality of a practice was more about who they were learning from instead of what they were learning. It doesn't matter what the practice is, if you have a bad teacher or are learning only from books, it won't matter if you have the best practice in the world... However, if you have a good teacher and are only learning "Basic" qigong, you will gain everything.... There was a saying in martial arts... "you don't fight the art, you fight the fighter..." So, I suggest stop shopping for a style and start shopping for a teacher...

Then again, apparently I am a dinosaur... Sorry for unloading on you... I have been watching this kind of thinking increasing unchecked on this forum recently...

 

Good luck with your search...

[Niklas]

Very Good! That is right, which is why I asked whether you had asked a teacher. Some of the practices you mention are pretty high level qigong and should not be learned without a live teacher to guide you... Your question is a very common one recently. I do not know your age, but I assume based on your question that you are a young adult. People nowadays want to try and intellectually figure out certain practices before they "try" a spiritual practice. You are not alone. I get these kinds of questions all the time. "What does this practice do? How long before I see results?" etc.. etc.. It reminds me of how someone searches the internet or ebay for a product. They want to know all the details before they buy. I am increasingly getting the feeling that teenagers and young adults see spiritual practices like products that they are shopping for on the internet... This is a very recent phenomenon. I believe it is a result of the internet age. teenagers and 20 something-ers have never lived without access to instant communication. So, this is understandable.

 

However, I have found that it is much better to simply pick a teacher and a practice that you feel drawn to and experience a practice first. No matter how much intellectual info you get about a practice, you will not know what the practice really is like until you do it. I do not think you will be able to figure out what a practice does ahead of time... Until recently (past 10 years or so) people used to ask about how good certain teachers were, because it was assumed that the quality of a practice was more about who they were learning from instead of what they were learning. It doesn't matter what the practice is, if you have a bad teacher or are learning only from books, it won't matter if you have the best practice in the world... However, if you have a good teacher and are only learning "Basic" qigong, you will gain everything.... There was a saying in martial arts... "you don't fight the art, you fight the fighter..." So, I suggest stop shopping for a style and start shopping for a teacher...

Then again, apparently I am a dinosaur... Sorry for unloading on you... I have been watching this kind of thinking increasing unchecked on this forum recently...

 

Good luck with your search...

 

 

Thank you for your advices and concerns. I am young, I will search, find and learn from many teachers of different practices and take only decisions from these experiences, not from what I read here or in books.

 

I am still just asking out of curiosity, even though I won't take any decision from any answer I get.

It is very interesting to read what anyone has to say about Baduanjin, Yi Jin Jing and Xi Sui Jing.

[fiveelementtao]

I understand... I think you might be better served by asking where you can find teachers in your area who teach those styles of qigong and nei gong... Then you can ask that teacher in person all your questions and get better answers to help you in your decision making process...

 

Peace...

[Sloppy Zhang]

I am increasingly getting the feeling that teenagers and young adults see spiritual practices like products that they are shopping for on the internet... This is a very recent phenomenon. I believe it is a result of the internet age. teenagers and 20 something-ers have never lived without access to instant communication. So, this is understandable.

 

However, I have found that it is much better to simply pick a teacher and a practice that you feel drawn to and experience a practice first. No matter how much intellectual info you get about a practice, you will not know what the practice really is like until you do it.

 

When I was 13 I went and joined a karate school, because I thought "karate was karate". The teachers talked in a way that made it look like they knew karate (complete with the whole "bah, you can't learn to fight from books and video, you need a competent, real life instructor! Like me!". They dressed the part. They acted the part. Dojo had a nice atmosphere. They talked about the virtues and the tradition and blah blah blah....... but they never actually taught karate. Despite all of their self defense rhetoric, they never even thought something that actually WORKED. I didn't find this out until 16, after two years of dumping 5-6 nights a week training in, the best thing I got out of that was being in shape and having lots of bad habits.

 

If I had done a little research (for instance, via the internet), I've have found out that the place wasn't exactly what they said it was, that the teacher wasn't exactly who he said he was, and that his tradition wasn't exactly as glorious as he said it was. Oh, and the karate wasn't exactly as they said it was either!

 

I spent a lot of time and money to get something that wasn't what I wanted. I could have gotten better results cheaper working out somewhere else. I could have learned more effective moves cheaper someone else.

 

We live in an age with options. You aren't just limited to your small town dojo anymore, and public library with whatever zen meditation books you can get.

 

Of course, that also means that the frauds are better. That their rhetoric sounds just like the rhetoric coming out of legitimate teachers' mouth. So how do you separate the frauds from the real deal? SUBSTANCE! Which one has SUBSTANCE!

 

And how do you gauge substance (without spending 2-5 years training with someone only to realize they were a fraud the whole time)? You look at them, their accomplishments, their skills, their lineage, their students, their students' skills, reviews, etc etc.

 

While I appreciate and understand the message you are saying, you are being awfully generous in assuming inherent equality within all practices- you can legitimately waste your time and money, when a little bit of investigation would turn up whether that art is worth giving that amount of dedication to. Why would you dedicate your time to something which isn't going to respect that which is given?

 

Don't assume people are nice. Don't assume all practices will give you rewards. Be careful about who you give your time and your money to. Do your research before starting a practice. There's a point in which intellectualizing will just lead you in circles, but until you get to that point, nothing wrong with researching.

 

Then again, apparently I am a dinosaur...

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but things are a lot different. Not better or worse, just different

 

But that's the opinion of a young 21 year old, I wasn't even around during the old days anyway

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[fiveelementtao]

Sloppy.... the issue I am raising is...Learning from internet, books and videos as opposed to live teachers.

 

I read one of your recent posts and came to find out that I had a very mistaken understanding about you. So, in order to stay on topic and before I respond to you directly, I want to make sure I am not making incorrect assumptions about you.

 

In order to better help me have a constructive conversation with you, can you please tell me: How old are you? and what teachers and lineages have you personally trained with? (outside of books, videos or internet) Skype is OK, I will accept that as live training..

 

My apologies and thanks for your indulgence...

 

edit: Sorry... I now see that you are 21... So, sloppy, I was under the assumption that you were in your 30s or 40s and had been training for at least 15 years. ( I don't know where I got that idea. My apologies) I thought that your skepticism arose from disappointments from training with several teachers. Assuming you have not actually trained with any live teachers in the few years you have been investigating, I don't understand your skepticism. In my day, when I was your age, we traveled around and actually trained with different people looking for a good teacher. If one teacher didn;t have what we wanted, we were grateful for knowing which teacher or path to eliminate. Yes, there are bad teachers out there.. So, what? Take it as a lesson and move on...

 

You had one bad experience with ONE karate teacher? Yeah.. so, go find another... That's what we did when I was your age...

Sloppy, You have spent alot of time on this forum complaining about having no proof. You hyper intellectualize and analyze everything but you have not talked about actually seeking people out... You have raked me over the coals analyzing my claims, yet you have made zero effort to train with me to see for yourself. I'm sure there are a few more teachers on here you have scrutinized but not actually visited... You have been demanding that people prove everything to you scientifically before you will deign to allow them the privilege of training you... You act as though you are doing all teachers a favor if you decided to become their student... This is very typical of the internet age...

 

I am pointing this out, not to harrass you, but because this epitomizes the internet generation's sense of entitlement that everything should come to them immediately and cheaply... You are not to blame. This is the result of our dependence on technology and if you are 21, then you have never lived without having instant access and gratification. So, I don't mean this as a criticism.

 

IMO, if you are REALLY serious about finding out the truth and finding a good system, you are going to need to get out from behind the computer screen, travel around, meet some live teacher and spend some TIME investigating and training. After maybe ten years of investigating with live teachers, then maybe, just maybe, you will have some actual experience to make some judgements about systems and teachers... Until then, I'm sorry to say that IMO, you are using your skepticism as a way to stay safe and not take a real risk.... Time to stop the talk and do the walk...

 

I know you're going to probably want to argue with me about this and we don't share a common experience, so, I am going to withdraw from further discussion about this with you... Because until you actually do something other than read and talk about it... It's all talk....

 

good luck in your search...

Edited February 28, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Ya Mu]

Hello,

 

What could you tell me about the different results and different effects on the body of the ba-duan-ji (the eight styles movement), the yi-ching-ji(the internal stretching practice), and the shi-shui-kung (the transformation practice) passed down by Bodhidarma? What are the differences? What does one style bring that the other doesn't? There might be some history behind to reveal this? They all originate from the same script that was written 2500years ago, don't they? As they all have the same goal.

 

Thank you.

The 8 Brocade Pieces are pretty much stretching exercises. A lot of teachers, including me, use them as a physical warm up prior to doing any real qigong. They are good exercises, but I personally do not classify them as qigong.

5ET is giving you good advice.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Maddie]

The 8 Brocade Pieces are pretty much stretching exercises. A lot of teachers, including me, use them as a physical warm up prior to doing any real qigong. They are good exercises, but I personally do not classify them as qigong.

5ET is giving you good advice.

 

Hey Ya Mu, I was just curious as to why you do not consider the 8 brocades true qigong? as they have been part of chinese qigong for a long time? In my personal experience I do also use them as a warm up, but I personally feel that they are a qigong in their own right, if not the most advanced one for sure. Just curious as to your reasoning?

[Sloppy Zhang]

and what teachers and lineages have you personally trained with?

 

None. Just books, DVD's, and personal experience.

 

I now see that you are 21... So, sloppy, I was under the assumption that you were in your 30s or 40s and had been training for at least 15 years.

 

It's must be my sagacious wisdom!

 

You had one bad experience with ONE karate teacher? Yeah.. so, go find another... That's what we did when I was your age...

 

Well when you aren't from an affluent family, and have to work to support yourself to live and/or go to college to cultivate a career so you DO have money to travel around, well, gallivanting across the country (world?) just isn't always a possibility.

 

You have spent alot of time on this forum complaining about having no proof.

 

I object to your word choice (bolded). Your attempts to trivialize my position do nothing to refute them.

 

I am pointing this out, not to harrass you, but because this epitomizes the internet generation's sense of entitlement that everything should come to them immediately and cheaply...

 

It's not a sense of entitlement- it's about educating yourself about the issues. Why would you spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars traveling in person to see if someone has got the goods, when some simple internet searches and surveys can tell you if they've done the deeds they claim? Why would you rely on unsubstantiated rumors of martial prowess, when there are terrorists in caves in the middle of Afghanistan who can figure out how to upload a video to youtube!?

 

People don't, and shouldn't have to, go into things blind. It doesn't mean that people lose reverence for legitimate teachers and lineage, quite the opposite- once they know of a teacher's legitimacy, they can pursue their study and practice with no doubt in their minds!

 

You are not to blame. This is the result of our dependence on technology and if you are 21, then you have never lived without having instant access and gratification. So, I don't mean this as a criticism.

 

I don't appreciate the assumptions you are making.

 

IMO, if you are REALLY serious about finding out the truth and finding a good system, you are going to need to get out from behind the computer screen, travel around, meet some live teacher and spend some TIME investigating and training.

 

Job and college are taking up most of my time. Once I'm able to secure a job so that I can support myself and a living arrangement, I'm sure you can figure out how I'm going to spend my vacation time. Until I do that, it's get whatever money I can, and put that to college, and try to get a good job. 100's of dollars for travel and 100's of dollars for seminars is just not feasible for me right now, and hasn't been for most of my life.

 

Sorry I'm not "doing enough" for you, but for people who can't hop on a plane or their car and travel cross country (or continent) to find a master of reputed skill, having access to the internet and books which can educate and inform about someone, as well as instruct in methods, is really, REALLY awesome, and it's the only way that some people have of verifying someone's legitimacy.

 

And when you hear a bunch of people saying, "I've seen/done such-and-such, it was really awesome, but I can't put it on video, my energy will disrupt the recording, you have to see it irl, believe me, it's so amazing, science can't even explain it, but you know, I can't prove it, but it's beyond words, but seriously, I can knock people out while hardly touching them... but the gov't would abduct me if they found this out.....", then, uh, well, your BS detector starts to go off, because if their claims were true, it'd be really, really easy to prove, even via online, yet they aren't.... hmmm.....

 

Open access to information and the ability to verify it through your own research on the internet has dramatically helped those who don't otherwise have the means to obtain information. There is now a balancing out of information, it's not so one sided that students go before a teacher and have absolutely no idea about anything before they seek instruction. I'm sure someone can (and will) counter with an empty cup parable, but why would you wait for someone else to remove a blindfold from you when you can just take it off yourself?

 

we don't share a common experience

 

“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.” - Jack Handey

 

Guess what, 5ET? I still have my shoes.....

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ya Mu]

Hey Ya Mu, I was just curious as to why you do not consider the 8 brocades true qigong? as they have been part of chinese qigong for a long time? In my personal experience I do also use them as a warm up, but I personally feel that they are a qigong in their own right, if not the most advanced one for sure. Just curious as to your reasoning?

I guess everything is relative; come to one of my workshops and you will see why I say this.

 

But qigong = study of energy. If we call every stretching exercise the "study of energy" then the word "qigong" has certainly been diluted. IMO there is no evidence to suggest they (8 Pieces) are a better energy exercise than say, rebounding. In fact, I would say they are not near as powerful or efficient as the physical exercise rebounding. But they are a good physical exercise and can help warm up the muscles.

 

And to be perfectly clear, qigong is not a breath control system nor a movement system, either. Although quite a few ignorant authors as well as people on forums keep saying so.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Baguakid]

The 8 Brocade Pieces are pretty much stretching exercises. A lot of teachers, including me, use them as a physical warm up prior to doing any real qigong. They are good exercises, but I personally do not classify them as qigong.

5ET is giving you good advice.

 

I agree completely.

[joeblast]

I object to your word choice (bolded). Your attempts to trivialize my position do nothing to refute them.

 

 

 

It's not a sense of entitlement- it's about educating yourself about the issues. Why would you spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars traveling in person to see if someone has got the goods, when some simple internet searches and surveys can tell you if they've done the deeds they claim? Why would you rely on unsubstantiated rumors of martial prowess, when there are terrorists in caves in the middle of Afghanistan who can figure out how to upload a video to youtube!?

 

People don't, and shouldn't have to, go into things blind. It doesn't mean that people lose reverence for legitimate teachers and lineage, quite the opposite- once they know of a teacher's legitimacy, they can pursue their study and practice with no doubt in their minds!

 

 

 

I don't appreciate the assumptions you are making.

 

 

He already stated that he didnt wish you to interpret this as pointed at you, but you're still treating it as such. You dont need to put up the defense here.

 

Unfortunately the "education" bit does have a tinge of entitlement. To you it is simply a matter of "going and getting the requisite information" and what he was trying to say was that the younger generation is the first we've seen grow up with such vast unrestricted flows of information that your first inclination in the absence of that information is "well, what's the problem? Why isnt this information displayed" so that we may have something nice neat and tidy to enter in to our decision making tree? What you're missing is that prior to your generation, we had to go get on the shoeleather express to find crap out for ourselves, knowledge was where you found it, and you had to go looking for it if you wished to find it. These days it stares you in the face by comparison!

 

You have so many choices in front of you that you cant make a determination on what you want to do, it would seem! Even if that is not your affliction, it is so for a substantial percentage of today's youth.

[Sloppy Zhang]

He already stated that he didnt wish you to interpret this as pointed at you

 

Read his post that I was responding to (which you are now responding to). Most of it was directed at me, and I'm just responding.

 

As to his points to the general "internet generation", I'm mostly part of that very internet generation, so once again, his points DO apply to me. And as part of the generation that he's talking to, I'm just doing my part to attempt to dispel any myths, assumptions, and pointless stereotypes.

 

What you're missing is that prior to your generation, we had to go get on the shoeleather express to find crap out for ourselves, knowledge was where you found it, and you had to go looking for it if you wished to find it.

 

As I've mentioned frequently in the other thread- same issues, different medium. You still gotta look pretty damn hard! Just because it doesn't look hard to you doesn't mean it isn't.

 

Even if that is not your affliction, it is so for a substantial percentage of today's youth.

 

One thing is clear from these threads, and that's many of the older generations only know about the young generations through stereotypical depictions, and NOT through personal experience. If they did have any experience, a significant portion of the things being said wouldn't be said, because they just aren't applicable.

 

Please (and this is meant to all)- think about the assumptions you have going in, the things that you take for granted. Your position might make sense until you question the things that you are leaving unquestioned.

 

Of course, there's no substitute for actually LIVING in the generation, and actually facing the problems that generation faces. So there's always going to be stuff you just don't quite get. And that's going to be the same for me (already started happening with my younger cousins). And in those situations, it's best to leave your assumptions at the door.

[joeblast]

As I've mentioned frequently in the other thread- same issues, different medium. You still gotta look pretty damn hard! Just because it doesn't look hard to you doesn't mean it isn't.

I didnt meant to imply it wasnt hard - like 5et said, different challenges. There's just some assumptions, e.g. that of a full repository of complete informtaions being readily available. Yep, the glut of information has resulted in the hard task of sifting through and separating wheat from chaff, and 5et was telling you what was going to be the spark that does it. Nobody said books and DVDs werent a good source to learn from, its more than those mediums absolutely pale in comparison to some real good up close and personal teaching. If you counter that with "but its expensive" then...well, it leaves you still in your position of vacillating over which set of information is most complete and which might work best...

 

Like Scotty told Bones in one of the Star Trek movies when they were shocked about somebody having a kid, "well, I guess if it is important to you...then you make the time."

[-O-]

<deleted mental vomit>

 

 

Edited March 1, 2011 by -O-