Internet Generation and Tao Training

[fiveelementtao]

There has been an increasing trend over the last 5-10 years that seems to be hitting epidemic proportions and I have seen this trend increasing exponentially on this forum over the last couple of years. It's what I am calling Internet generation syndrome... This trend seems to apply to teenagers and young adults who have never lived without access to cell phones and internet. I am seeing a very different mindset from this upcoming group of people that marks a huge shift in thinking from when I was a kid.

 

As a teacher, I have been getting more and more inquiries from students who want me to explain everything to them ahead of time over the phone or in email before they come to a class. I just got a phone call today from a local student who wanted me to "meet him and give him a couple pointers on breathing." When I told him that I would be happy to set up a time for a private lesson, he said he was having money troubles and asked if I could just hang out with him and maybe we could work something out... I then suggested if money was an issue that he come to my group qigong class. He wanted to know how many classes it would take before he would learn enough to do it on his own and if he didn't like the class, would I offer him a refund.... I felt as though he believed he was talking to a customer service rep... I gave him some options and told him to think about it and get back to me... I was polite, but needless to say, I am not very interested in training that kid... I don't think he would learn anything until he changes his perspective... I'm also not angry with him because I have seen enough to know that he is not alone. It is a very common mindset of his generation. Years ago when I was starting out as a teacher, I rarely got these kinds of inquiries. Now I get two or more a week. A few weeks back I got an inquiry from a local person ( 10 minutes drive) who wanted to know if I would do skype training with her because she didn't want to make the drive to my studio.....So, something is changing and I don't think it is for the better.

 

The internet generation syndrome exhibits a mindset that assumes that everything can be made instantly available, cheap and refundable. Just like products on the internet or on ebay... Internet generationers ( I think because they have grown up on TV internet, texting and video games) also believe that they can intellectually understand everything beforehand and they demand to be told everything there is to know before they will put forth any effort into learning. Internet generationers seem to believe that it is THEY who are doing teachers a favor by studying with them. There is a tendency among some of them to seek for a personal friendship relationships with teachers. These ones are particularly sensitive about paying any money. They believe that their friendship is more valuable than any money and therefore, they should not have to pay the teacher for his/her time.... This indicates to me that parents have abandoned their kids to TV, internet and video games and so there is a huge hole in these kids' guts and so they project their desires for parental love onto spiritual teachers... No wonder there are so many false gurus out there promising enlightenment in a weekend seminar...

 

On other threads, other fellow TTBs have proclaimed that they don't have the time or money to travel and meet teachers. Many have only learned through books, forums and videos.They often complain about not being able to find a reliable system, yet they have never taken the time to physically seek out any teachers. They often complain about the amount of money spent on "materials.' Some are college students who claim they don't have time or money to go seek out teachers... You think it was different when I was a kid? we had to go to college, have part time jobs and we still found ways to save money, pile into cars, sleep on the roadside or in the back of cars or take buses on weekends or semester breaks. You don't have time because you are in college? I understand. Sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes, you may need to choose college and forget about training. sometimes you take a semester off and work and train... Maybe you need to choose between college, a relationship or training... Sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes you don't get everything you want... Complaining about it accomplishes nothing except to reinforce a childish sense of entitlement. Complaining doesn't help you get the knowledge you want. Only action will get that for you...That's called life...

 

Sacrifice is essential to spiritual learning...

 

When I was younger, it was assumed that in order to learn anything of value, one had to scrimp, save and sacrifice to learn anything. It was assumed and understood. I am amazed when I hear the internet generationers complain about how much money they have spent buying books and DVDs as though they should get a medal or something. I have no idea how much money I have spent over the last 20 years traveling around and paying teachers to train me. Perhaps because I did not grow up in the internet age that I didn't assume that everything was readily available and so I wasn't angry if things didn't work out. I assumed that failure was part of the process. In fact, I took it as a sign that I was making progress and that encouraged me to keep looking until I found what I was looking for... Guess what 20 years later, I have finally found my niche. If i expected to find it within only a few years, I would have given up and lost out big time...

 

So, I am going to make a dire prediction here and I would be very happy if I am wrong.... But here goes... I believe our current way of life is going to change drastically very soon. I believe that the internet will go down, Petroleum will become difficult or impossible to get, people won't be able to drive cars or get their food from giant grocery stores and our economic system will completely break down and return to a locally based system of bartering. Those who are not able to adapt and provide for themselves will have a very difficult time surviving...

 

For those who have never lived without having everything instantly available, who don't know how to sacrifice and adapt, those who complain about feeling they deserve everything according to their requirements... They will not survive...

 

Spiritual seekers... If you truly want to learn spiritual disciplines, you have to grow up.... You have to be self-sufficient... One of my first teachers told me... "The Universe is not interested in excuses. It is only interested in results." He was right...

 

There are a growing number of old timers on this forum who are silently leaving this forum in droves because they are tired of the trend that I have outlined here. As it is now, there are only a handful of us (that I know of) who post on this part of the discussion forum who have actual experience in real lineages with live teachers. I think that is sad. If we all leave, you will only be left with threads about aliens, nagas and semen retention techniques from books...

 

If you really want to learn this stuff, especially the high level stuff, you will need to learn about the kind of learning that can only be given through personal, physical and verbal transmission. No book or video can adequately give this... Unfortunately, that may mean that you may have to make some sacrifices, get up from behind the computer screen, meet some teachers and train old school style... Or you can continue to sit behind a computer and complain... and you will get exactly what you have now...

 

Anyway... just wanted to share some thoughts.... I hope this forum doesn't continue to disintegrate. I think it is a very valuable resource...

[Sloppy Zhang]

I am seeing a very different mindset from this upcoming group of people that marks a huge shift in thinking from when I was a kid.

 

Statements like this surprise me. I notice them a lot. To me, they reflect a resistance to change. Maybe it is off base for me to say so, but it's just what I'm noticing.

 

Let me explain something about the "internet" generation- it's about independence. With the internet, you can find things out for yourself. If you are having a problem, you don't have to go down to a local whatever and pay for someone to fix it for you. Instead, you can look up a tutorial on how to do it yourself. Because so many people can come together for such a cheap price, ideas can be swapped freely and openly. You can cut straight through the bullshit- is a product or a procedure full of crap? Let us hear of your experiences! Get the story straight from the horse's mouth!

 

Now as with all change, there are good and bad points to it. The good point is that practical knowledge and effective techniques can become widespread. You see this with open source software- the best people putting together the best packages. Something that was cheap or free doesn't have to be low quality, in fact, it could mean BETTER quality because users are making it because they WANT to, not because they have to, and if their product sucks, it won't be used. And you can see that many open source software rivals that of even professional software!

 

Now some bad points are that doing it yourself can actually wind up harming you if you don't take the appropriate precautions, get all the information, and don't know when to ask for help.

 

Now as for this example:

 

As a teacher, I have been getting more and more inquiries from students who want me to explain everything to them ahead of time over the phone or in email before they come to a class. I just got a phone call today from a local student who wanted me to "meet him and give him a couple pointers on breathing." When I told him that I would be happy to set up a time for a private lesson, he said he was having money troubles and asked if I could just hang out with him and maybe we could work something out... I then suggested if money was an issue that he come to my group qigong class. He wanted to know how many classes it would take before he would learn enough to do it on his own and if he didn't like the class, would I offer him a refund.... I felt as though he believed he was talking to a customer service rep... I gave him some options and told him to think about it and get back to me... I was polite, but needless to say, I am not very interested in training that kid... I don't think he would learn anything until he changes his perspective... I'm also not angry with him because I have seen enough to know that he is not alone. It is a very common mindset of his generation. Years ago when I was starting out as a teacher, I rarely got these kinds of inquiries.

 

Might I suggest that his financial situation actually WAS tight? And that he really only wanted enough to be able to learn on his own?

 

Think about that for a bit- once you know how to do something, why would you need to keep paying for something?

 

Most of my practices come from books or DVD, and I LOVE that. Why? It's a one time purchase. If I have problems, I either consult the text, or work it out on my own. I don't have to keep paying just so I can show up to a place to do stuff in front of someone else. Let me go do my thing, if I have a problem, I'll let you know. If I don't, well why not let me do that thing?

 

Which brings me back to the topic of internet and communities, namely The Tao Bums! There are a lot of very high level people here who can really give you a lot of perspective on issues that you might be facing. It's fantastic.

 

At least, I like it.

 

The internet generation syndrome exhibits a mindset that assumes that everything can be made instantly available, cheap and refundable.

 

I think you are confusing "internet generation" with "selfish" people in general, and I have to vehemently object to this! At my university, I see it when people from upper class families interact with the lower class workers- they look down on them, speak roughly on them, and get all pissed when the worker doesn't do things just right (and sometimes that includes being visible during the day!) It's not about the internet, it's about a fundamental lack of understanding and respect for the work of others, and that is independent of the internet.

 

also believe that they can intellectually understand everything beforehand and they demand to be told everything there is to know before they will put forth any effort into learning.

 

Now, to a certain extent, this is a valid point. There comes a point in time where you have "read the manual" enough times, you understand the theory, and now you have to do it. And that's just one learning style. Some people learn by doing, and picking up the theory as they go. Some people like to get a feel for the territory, have "talked it through" a couple of times before jumping in, and like to go slow. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just a different approach.

 

The internet and other information technologies supports the style in which you research first and do later. And sometimes you can get to an extreme where you never actually do. But I must stress that it is an EXTREME.

 

It's a different style, and if that's not you, so be it. Just don't look down on a different personality because it's not what you do.

 

Internet generationers seem to believe that it is THEY who are doing teachers a favor by studying with them. There is a tendency among some of them to seek for a personal friendship relationships with teachers. These ones are particularly sensitive about paying any money. They believe that their friendship is more valuable than any money and therefore, they should not have to pay the teacher for his/her time.... This indicates to me that parents have abandoned their kids to TV, internet and video games and so there is a huge hole in these kids' guts and so they project their desires for parental love onto spiritual teachers... No wonder there are so many false gurus out there promising enlightenment in a weekend seminar...

 

I don't have any experience with this bit, so I can't really comment on it.

[Sloppy Zhang]

You don't have time because you are in college? I understand.

 

I don't know how old you are, or when you went to college, or where you went to college, or what you majored in, or if you even went to college, or if you stayed in college, or how much you have kept up with the educational (and job) system since your day. Thanks to increased globalization of the market (which includes things like information technologies), colleges and well paying jobs are much harder to get into and much harder to maintain. One of my professors was talking about some research that she did showing that 30 years ago people could get jobs with just a high school diploma which present, comparable jobs require at least an undergraduate degree if not a college degree.

 

And thanks to that same internet that you are griping about, people are EXPECTED to be ready to work ALL THE TIME. Now that smartphones are saturating the pockets of most people in college (who are assumed to have the money for them since they are in college), which allow you to check e-mail and network with people, you're expected to be on call all. the. time. And guess what? If you aren't, there's someone else who is and they are going to get the job or internship over you.

 

Which brings us back to that all important word: change. Different lifestyles necessitate a change in learning and a change in need. Why would you take time out to attend a week/weekend seminar when you can learn the same information from a book, practice on your own, and then attend a seminar to get fine tuned and learn things you otherwise couldn't?

 

Now you might look at this and go "blah blah blah, excuses, humph, do some real work!" And my response is this: it's not an excuse, it's an appraisal of the current social terrain. People have to navigate through different issues and concerns, and that social terrain is important to how people develop in the learning and decision making process. If you don't understand their perspective, you aren't going to understand how they think. And if you don't understand how they think, you're never going to understand (and most likely, never respect) why it is they do certain things.

 

And I think that is happening right now with you- you don't understand why certain people are doing certain things. All you know is it's not how you did it, it's not how you think it should be done, and, well, you are judging it down.

 

But I don't blame you for it. Because if you don't LIVE the culture (be part of that generation), then you aren't going to get it. The next best thing is studying it (which some people do), but that involves keeping up with news, movies, music, games, internet, pop culture in general, social constraints (things like school, jobs, etc) laws and law enforcement (at what age can you move independently, etc). And that's a LOT of work.

 

What complicates things is that society, and culture, is rapidly changing at an increasing rate. Technology is developing faster and faster. Society is changing faster and faster. It's not "this is the era of the iPhone", it's more like, "this is the business quarter of the iPhone". Because by next quarter, something else will be there. By next week, something else will have changed.

 

Even at 21 I have trouble understanding and connecting with my 8, 9, and 10 year old cousins. THEY are the ones who ALWAYS have the internet. My family was always slow to buy new things (saving money, you know how it goes). I didn't have the internet until middle school. Never had cable (till I moved out and it was provided in my dorm, sweet!). My mom just got cable a few months ago when she moved into her apartment and it was included in the rent (which she tried to remove but couldn't! It was assumed to be a necessity). I didn't have a phone until junior year of high school, and didn't have my own computer until college. Neither myself, nor anyone in my immediate family has a flat screen television.

 

Even though my family was pretty slow to get onto stuff, there are a lot of people in my generation who mirror myself. People born in late 80's early to mid 90's. People who were born in late 90's, early 2000's, THEY are the ones who have always been "connected" (at least if they are middle class). And even I have trouble understanding them!

 

But guess what? I TRY! And I don't make assumptions about them just because I think they live a different lifestyle than I did!

 

Sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes, you may need to choose college and forget about training. sometimes you take a semester off and work and train... Maybe you need to choose between college, a relationship or training... Sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes you don't get everything you want... Complaining about it accomplishes nothing except to reinforce a childish sense of entitlement. Complaining doesn't help you get the knowledge you want. Only action will get that for you...That's called life...

 

Sacrifice is essential to spiritual learning...

 

Sounds to me like some people just complain that people aren't making the same choices they made, or aren't making the choices that, in their opinions, are the "right" choices....

 

When I was younger, it was assumed that in order to learn anything of value, one had to scrimp, save and sacrifice to learn anything. It was assumed and understood.

 

Assumptions and understandings (which are very much a part of the culture) change with the culture, which changes all the time.

 

I am amazed when I hear the internet generationers complain about how much money they have spent buying books and DVDs as though they should get a medal or something.

 

I can understand when I'm being referenced (or maybe it's just my internet ego!) but you are taking things out of context! It's not about "getting a medal", it's about finding out who is legit and who is not legit. When I make comments about what I've gone through to sift through the crap, it's just that: it's taken lots of time and money to swim through a bunch of crap!

 

I specifically talk about this when talking about how some teachers would rather clam up and not say anything about legitimate methods, though their purported goal is to reach as many people as possible. While the legit teacher crosses his arms because "bah, what are dem kids doing with their internets-ma-bob-thingy", the local charlatan is setting up websites and rolling books off the shelves, getting people to learn "the next big thing".

 

So when people do a google search, who comes up? The fraud, or the legit guy? The legit guy ain't even on the net! And the legit guys complain about how nobody is interested in learning real systems, or people are buying into new age fluff. Guess what? The legit guys are SLOW! They aren't getting there fast enough! They don't realize that things have CHANGED, and they have not changed WITH the times!

 

They are living "back in their day" when everyone else is "living in the present"! And in the present, people do a damn google search! If you don't like that, okay. Fine. Just stop complaining about it.

 

I believe our current way of life is going to change drastically very soon.

 

[sarcasm]Nooooooo.... REALLY????[/sarcasm]

 

You're a bit late to the party.

 

For those who have never lived without having everything instantly available, who don't know how to sacrifice and adapt, those who complain about feeling they deserve everything according to their requirements... They will not survive...

 

Everyone sacrifices and adapts. They just do it in different ways. I have read theorists who argue that as soon as we invented cars and railways that our society lost its ability to survive under dire consequences, because food production was so far removed from the populace, and unless you know how to grow your own crops, hunt your own animals, and prepare everything accordingly, not to mention find the appropriate materials to build something from scratch, and learn the weather well enough to know when it was going to drastically changed....... well, let me put it this way: even the pre-internet people would likely have a hard time!

 

There are a growing number of old timers on this forum who are silently leaving this forum in droves because they are tired of the trend that I have outlined here.

 

Sounds to me like they've lost, and been unwilling to make a new, connection with the next generation. You just can't talk to new people the same way as you can the old people, and you can't expect new generations to behave with the same standards as older generations. It is just flat out unreasonable! Especially with culture and society changing faster and faster. It's impossible to keep up! But doesn't mean you should just quit because nobody is going to do it the way you would/did do it. It means you gotta pull your head out of the sand and realize that things change, and if you can't adapt, well, figure the rest out yourself.

 

As it is now, there are only a handful of us (that I know of) who post on this part of the discussion forum who have actual experience in real lineages with live teachers. I think that is sad. If we all leave, you will only be left with threads about aliens, nagas and semen retention techniques from books...

 

I find it sad that "real teachers" and "old timers" get frustrated and quit just because they can't learn to adapt to the changing social environments.

 

Anyway... just wanted to share some thoughts.... I hope this forum doesn't continue to disintegrate. I think it is a very valuable resource...

 

Way to have a positive attitude.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[VCraigP]

Well sloppy

 

I don't know how fast you type, but your replies were posted exactly 31 minutes after 5ET made his post.

 

How much reflexion did you actually take. How much time did you take to think about his perspective and not just react to how he didn't get YOUR perspective.

 

 

Yes, things are different for sure. Things change, for sure.

You seem to think that anything you can imagine can be had by open source on the internet. Maybe you are wrong! maybe the live interaction with a teacher who has actual experience can do something for you which books and dvd's and youtube videos cannot. I posit that you do not know what you do not know.

 

Your reactions to 5ET seem like just that, defensive reactions. Your sophistry is obviously highly developed and you have constructed quite a castle of rationalizations to avoid most of the points which 5ET is making.

 

The terrible truth is that the realities which you describe may be true, ie school, money, time employers expectations, and they may FOREVER proscribe you from any achievement in the arts you profess to be interested in. Sorry.

 

PS - One of my good friends who is only 10 years older than you travelled all the way from the east coast and transplanted himself on the west coast SOLELY in order to study with a teacher he had found out about. He continued to live near that teacher and eventually studied classical chinese medicine in large part because of this teacher. He achieved a lot by committing to this course of action.

 

Craig

[VCraigP]

There has been an increasing trend over the last 5-10 years that seems to be hitting epidemic proportions and I have seen this trend increasing exponentially on this forum over the last couple of years. It's what I am calling Internet generation syndrome... This trend seems to apply to teenagers and young adults who have never lived without access to cell phones and internet. I am seeing a very different mindset from this upcoming group of people that marks a huge shift in thinking from when I was a kid.

 

As a teacher, I have been getting more and more inquiries from students who want me to explain everything to them ahead of time over the phone or in email before they come to a class. I just got a phone call today from a local student who wanted me to "meet him and give him a couple pointers on breathing." When I told him that I would be happy to set up a time for a private lesson, he said he was having money troubles and asked if I could just hang out with him and maybe we could work something out... I then suggested if money was an issue that he come to my group qigong class. He wanted to know how many classes it would take before he would learn enough to do it on his own and if he didn't like the class, would I offer him a refund.... I felt as though he believed he was talking to a customer service rep... I gave him some options and told him to think about it and get back to me... I was polite, but needless to say, I am not very interested in training that kid... I don't think he would learn anything until he changes his perspective... I'm also not angry with him because I have seen enough to know that he is not alone. It is a very common mindset of his generation. Years ago when I was starting out as a teacher, I rarely got these kinds of inquiries. Now I get two or more a week. A few weeks back I got an inquiry from a local person ( 10 minutes drive) who wanted to know if I would do skype training with her because she didn't want to make the drive to my studio.....So, something is changing and I don't think it is for the better.

 

The internet generation syndrome exhibits a mindset that assumes that everything can be made instantly available, cheap and refundable. Just like products on the internet or on ebay... Internet generationers ( I think because they have grown up on TV internet, texting and video games) also believe that they can intellectually understand everything beforehand and they demand to be told everything there is to know before they will put forth any effort into learning. Internet generationers seem to believe that it is THEY who are doing teachers a favor by studying with them. There is a tendency among some of them to seek for a personal friendship relationships with teachers. These ones are particularly sensitive about paying any money. They believe that their friendship is more valuable than any money and therefore, they should not have to pay the teacher for his/her time.... This indicates to me that parents have abandoned their kids to TV, internet and video games and so there is a huge hole in these kids' guts and so they project their desires for parental love onto spiritual teachers... No wonder there are so many false gurus out there promising enlightenment in a weekend seminar...

 

On other threads, other fellow TTBs have proclaimed that they don't have the time or money to travel and meet teachers. Many have only learned through books, forums and videos.They often complain about not being able to find a reliable system, yet they have never taken the time to physically seek out any teachers. They often complain about the amount of money spent on "materials.' Some are college students who claim they don't have time or money to go seek out teachers... You think it was different when I was a kid? we had to go to college, have part time jobs and we still found ways to save money, pile into cars, sleep on the roadside or in the back of cars or take buses on weekends or semester breaks. You don't have time because you are in college? I understand. Sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes, you may need to choose college and forget about training. sometimes you take a semester off and work and train... Maybe you need to choose between college, a relationship or training... Sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes you don't get everything you want... Complaining about it accomplishes nothing except to reinforce a childish sense of entitlement. Complaining doesn't help you get the knowledge you want. Only action will get that for you...That's called life...

 

Sacrifice is essential to spiritual learning...

 

When I was younger, it was assumed that in order to learn anything of value, one had to scrimp, save and sacrifice to learn anything. It was assumed and understood. I am amazed when I hear the internet generationers complain about how much money they have spent buying books and DVDs as though they should get a medal or something. I have no idea how much money I have spent over the last 20 years traveling around and paying teachers to train me. Perhaps because I did not grow up in the internet age that I didn't assume that everything was readily available and so I wasn't angry if things didn't work out. I assumed that failure was part of the process. In fact, I took it as a sign that I was making progress and that encouraged me to keep looking until I found what I was looking for... Guess what 20 years later, I have finally found my niche. If i expected to find it within only a few years, I would have given up and lost out big time...

 

So, I am going to make a dire prediction here and I would be very happy if I am wrong.... But here goes... I believe our current way of life is going to change drastically very soon. I believe that the internet will go down, Petroleum will become difficult or impossible to get, people won't be able to drive cars or get their food from giant grocery stores and our economic system will completely break down and return to a locally based system of bartering. Those who are not able to adapt and provide for themselves will have a very difficult time surviving...

 

For those who have never lived without having everything instantly available, who don't know how to sacrifice and adapt, those who complain about feeling they deserve everything according to their requirements... They will not survive...

 

Spiritual seekers... If you truly want to learn spiritual disciplines, you have to grow up.... You have to be self-sufficient... One of my first teachers told me... "The Universe is not interested in excuses. It is only interested in results." He was right...

 

There are a growing number of old timers on this forum who are silently leaving this forum in droves because they are tired of the trend that I have outlined here. As it is now, there are only a handful of us (that I know of) who post on this part of the discussion forum who have actual experience in real lineages with live teachers. I think that is sad. If we all leave, you will only be left with threads about aliens, nagas and semen retention techniques from books...

 

If you really want to learn this stuff, especially the high level stuff, you will need to learn about the kind of learning that can only be given through personal, physical and verbal transmission. No book or video can adequately give this... Unfortunately, that may mean that you may have to make some sacrifices, get up from behind the computer screen, meet some teachers and train old school style... Or you can continue to sit behind a computer and complain... and you will get exactly what you have now...

 

Anyway... just wanted to share some thoughts.... I hope this forum doesn't continue to disintegrate. I think it is a very valuable resource...

 

5ET

The trend towards instant gratification was begun with television. The idea that a problem can be presented and solved in 1/2 hour or even an hour is part of that programming which our TV civilization has internalized. this has become even more profound with the internet generation which is instantly gratified in so many more ways.

 

What is gong? as in gong fu or Qi gong.

Hard work and diligence performed over a long period of time.

 

is this the absolute opposite of instant gratification which you describe? Yes, absolutely.

 

My teacher has a simple Chinese expression - Heng teng.

Heng, loosely means Sacrifice. Teng means connection.

In order to make a connection you must make a sacrifice.

In our school this relates directly to making the Heng sound in various techniques which basically helps you connect to the Tantien. making the Heng(sacrifice) creates the Teng (connection), in this case the connection with your own center.

 

But this phrase has deeper meaning as well. Perhaps it also applies to Ming. I dont remember the phrase, but I learned it on TTB. It means having Ming with your teacher. Ming roughly means destiny or even Karma. I believe it is necessary to make the sacrifice and have good gong fu in order to achieve the Ming necessary to make connection with higher level instruction.

 

Therefore, apply gongfu to WHATEVER information you have available to you. I believe this will result in the old adage "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear"

 

5ET the problem with modern communication is that so many students can now contact you, but in fact THEY are not ready for YOU, even though they were able to make the phone call or more likely email. Despite making this superficial connection they have no desire to make the proper Heng (sacrifice) to make a real Teng (connection).

 

Thanks for your essay, I believe you are right on.

 

Craig

 

PS - 5ET and I are much nearer in age than the younger folks here (I'm in my late 40s)

 

TTFN

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't know how fast you type

 

Faster than anybody I know.

 

How much reflexion did you actually take. How much time did you take to think about his perspective and not just react to how he didn't get YOUR perspective.

 

Most of what he said is rehashed from stuff he's said in other threads, just condensed into one post, so I've been mulling over his points for quite a while. Thanks for asking

 

You seem to think that anything you can imagine can be had by open source on the internet.

 

No I do not.

 

In fact, up in that post, I mentioned that there comes a point where you must actually DO stuff. And given that things like meditation and martial arts are about personal development, that's something YOU have to put forward, and it's only stuff that you can do, and you can't share that. The best you can do is lead someone to figure it out on their own. Of course, to do that, you have to understand them.

 

What I DO think can be shared is the knowledge about what a teacher teaches, what is most likely (but not guaranteed) to happen from that, and how successful other people learn and perform the method.

 

So things like the relative fighting ability that you can get from a certain martial arts system. You can't just download martial skill from the internet- you've got to cultivate it yourself. However, you CAN see whether or not someone is an effective fighter based on their performance which, thanks to modern video technology, can be shared.

 

Your reactions to 5ET seem like just that, defensive reactions. Your sophistry is obviously highly developed and you have constructed quite a castle of rationalizations to avoid most of the points which 5ET is making.

 

Quite the opposite- it seems to me (and I can't know for sure!) that 5ET has become disconnected from the reality of the modern world. He expects his fantasy to play in reality, where students will humbly come before him just as he humbly went before his teachers. That they'll be thankful that such a teacher is so easily accessible and open, and that they'll do work exactly as he did it. If they don't look like they're doing what he did, then they're obviously doing it wrong.

 

When he doesn't see this, he becomes frustrated and bemoans the degradation of our society and this forum! Then he intimates that many advanced people have "quietly left", which seems to mean that rather than changing with the modern times, and adapting to shifting currents, they would rather stay stuck, fixated, and rigidly adhere to whatever they think "should be" the reality.

 

Quite the opposite of tao. But what do I know? I've never had an in person teacher to tell me what tao is.

 

The terrible truth is that the realities which you describe may be true, ie school, money, time employers expectations, and they may FOREVER proscribe you from any achievement in the arts you profess to be interested in. Sorry.

 

I believed somewhere you missed the point of my descriptions about modern society. Perhaps like 5ET, you thought they were somehow excuses. They are not. I am merely attempting to illustrate (which is ultimately impossible, because culture is something you really have to live) that living conditions are different. Therefore, learning modalities are going to be different. Problems are going to be approached in different ways. What was a concern one year may not be a concern 10 years ago. What was once a given is no longer a given. There is no superiority or inferiority. There is only change, those able to change with that change, those unwilling (or unable) to change with that change. Those who will learn and understand new things, or those who will shut them out and down completely.

 

PS - One of my good friends who is only 10 years older than you travelled all the way from the east coast and transplanted himself on the west coast SOLELY in order to study with a teacher he had found out about. He continued to live near that teacher and eventually studied classical chinese medicine in large part because of this teacher. He achieved a lot by committing to this course of action.

 

Okay? When I'm 10 years older, have a degree and (hopefully) a steady job which will give me enough funds to move, then I'll move to where teachers are too. Since people seem to have such a hard time understanding abstractions, let me give you a little personal information- I have less than $1000 in my personal account. Money goes right through me and to college/necessity expenses. I have no contacts out of my home state. Any extra I tuck away and don't spend (no going out on the town, no buying video games) unless I have to- and that usually means travel (I don't have a car) for work or (hopefully this summer!) internship.

 

Right now I am tied down, and that is because of the commitment I've made to getting an education and cultivating a solid resume to get a job so that I'll be affluent enough to travel and get in live, personal contact with the people I want to learn from. In the mean time, that means getting whatever material I can get my hands on, and practicing what I can on my own (with help from TTB's of course )

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Sloppy Zhang]

[fiveelementtao]

 

My teacher has a simple Chinese expression - Heng teng.

Heng, loosely means Sacrifice. Teng means connection.

In order to make a connection you must make a sacrifice.

In our school this relates directly to making the Heng sound in various techniques which basically helps you connect to the Tantien. making the Heng(sacrifice) creates the Teng (connection), in this case the connection with your own center.

 

Thanks for that quote. It rings true from my experience... Interesting, If my limited understanding of Chinese is correct, I assume that what you spell "heng" is pronounced like the English "hung." If this is true, then, it correlates with the Sanskrit seed sound "Ham" which is correctly pronounced "hung" also. Ham means "AM" or "Being" which means Existence. Ham is also the seed sound for the ether element which is similar to the "Hun" souls energy in the liver which is similar to the aethem Element in Teutonic mythology. So, everything you just said tells me that High level energy leading to spiritual existence can only be achieved through discipline, connection and sacrifice...

 

To other readers out there... This connection I just made which was sparked by a fellow practitioner is a result of years of practice in a transmitted lineage. Had I not spent years receiving this transmission from my teachers, I would not have had the karmic energy to make that instant connection. This profound teaching that VCraig has given me is a final result of years of learning energy concepts... This is the kind of power and understanding that can only come from lineage connection, which can only be found by studying over time in person with teachers... Now I will be able to translate this knowledge from Vcraig into practical reality. It is no longer an intellectual idea... This is real learning...

 

@Sloppy, I put you on manage ignored users so I don't know what you have written, not because I am angry with you, but because I knew that you would probably get defensive and want to argue with me and try to convince that you are right and I am wrong. (based on Vcraig's response it seems I was generally right.) But, here are the facts... My opinion and your opinion mean NOTHING in this Universe. The only thing that matters is what WORKS. I know you know this already. So, stop wasting energy trying to convince me you are right and go PROVE it by studying with teachers. If I am wrong, you will not need to prove it to me because you will KNOW it through trial and error and experience. If I am right, then you will have found what you say you are looking for, REAL energy knowledge... Either way, wasting energy on this forum gets you nowhere. So, Make whatever sacrifices you have to and go TRAIN with someone. Then come back in 10 years and tell me I was wrong if need be... Until then as VCraig pointed out, IMO, you don't even know what you don't know...

I am going to keep you on manage ignored users for awhile to avoid needless drama for myself... Good luck...

[RiverSnake]

 

 

 

Takes a different meaning as the times change.

 

 

 

 

There's no substitute for hardwork, period end of story.

[Sloppy Zhang]

@Sloppy, I put you on manage ignored users so I don't know what you have written, not because I am angry with you, but because I knew that you would probably get defensive and want to argue with me and try to convince that you are right and I am wrong.

 

And people wonder why nobody understands each other?

 

I'm disappointed by this lack of effort

 

So, stop wasting energy trying to convince me you are right and go PROVE it by studying with teachers.

 

Um, if I were really interested in doing that, then wouldn't I prove it by NOT studying with teachers? I mean, you know, to prove you could figure it out on your own? Oh, that means I'd have to get rid of all my books, 'cause, you know, that is technically learning from teachers too. I guess it's never crossed your mind that, I dunno, I'd train with teachers if I could, but since I can't, use what I have?

 

But I guess getting to know where someone else is coming from isn't of interest to you.

 

Oh boy.

 

I am going to keep you on manage ignored users for awhile to avoid needless drama for myself... Good luck...

 

Odd and sad to hear that discussing with people who have different viewpoints, and learning their positions, causes drama for you...

[Sloppy Zhang]

There's no substitute for hardwork, period end of story.

 

I'm not saying there is.

 

Let's take it from the top:

 

5ET says that internet's instant gratification means people don't want to do any hard work anymore.

 

But VCraigP says it started with television.

 

So if your lifestyle was full of tv or internet, then you don't really understand hard work, or at least, you have to make significant changes to get it. It's a huge lifestyle change, because your lifestyle doesn't conform with it.

 

Of course, the implication is that the lifestyle prior to internet and tv WAS about hard work. That somehow those living in the earlier days were more attuned to what "real" work was, knew how you really progressed. Knew that you couldn't just instantly have whatever you wanted.

 

But let's take it a step even further back- some argue that as soon as the division of labor made it so that people didn't have to grow their own food, and that you could transport it vast distances (using various means of transportation), and then purchase it on a whim at first by barter, and then by money, that people were already living a (at the time, anyway) "instant gratification lifestyle".

 

So the people criticizing the internet and television had their own lifestyle criticized by previous generations (of course the gap between those two was much larger, as innovations of technologies seem to be happening at a faster rate these days, but maybe we're just full of ourselves).

 

In any case, the earlier technological/lifestyle generation could say "if you aren't farming it or hunting it yourself, and just buying from a market, you don't know what real work is! You just live a life of instant gratification!"

 

And then take it even further back, to Socrates reportedly criticizing written language- he'd say we live a life of instant gratification because rather than memorizing and researching a body of knowledge, you can just read it! What utter laziness!

 

To the pre-internet generation, we aren't doing work.

 

To the pre-tv generation, tv watchers weren't doing work.

 

To the pre-market system, merchant customers weren't doing real work.

 

To the pre-alphabet people, writers weren't doing real work.

 

Yet each generation arguably worked pretty damn hard!

 

The form was different, but the input amount of work was not.

 

Hard work is still hard work, and can't be replaced.

 

You just can't just hard work by form.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

general disclaimer> i have not read any post on this topic.

since i became active on TTB in novemeber, i expected this conversation.

 

i understand that in the 60's,70's, 80's.

folks who wanted authentic high level

chi kung, kung fu, tai chi, etc etc.

would expect to have to pay big big bucks.

i know a guy personally who in '74 paid

3500$ for 1 tang lang form from taiwan.

he felt he had basically stolen it.

i know of a guy who paid 20 grand for a chi kung method.

i respect the pioneers who brought true art

to the rest of us.

 

some did it with idea of bizness investment

and looking for ROI.

folks were expected to swear loyalties,

kiss ass, never question a guru, etc etc.

 

then it was definately a teachers market.

 

then we came to the dvd and book boom.

youtube, ttb, etc expanded the horizon.

 

it became more of a students market.

everyone starts to use the same phrase

"now is the time for this knowledge to be made available"

and that phrase is very true.

 

books and dvds are useful, especially

if one already has a working knowledge.

it lets me sample and investigate and practice

from a wide variety of styles and teachers.

i am able to find what resonnates well with me.

in a price range i consider reasonable.

 

do i look at books/dvds as a substitute

for a real live teacher? no, but it is

conveinent to play the dvd when i am ready.

it also lets me know which style of art

i will look for a teacher in.

i live in a remote area, i just traveled 150

miles to play some bgz with a few guys.

who else can/will do this?

for me i treasure the teacherS i have

AND i treasure the books/dvds in my collection.

[fiveelementtao]

Another aspect in all this which I think is very important is the left brain/right brain aspect to Tao training.

Internet, texting, video games and books are all left brain activities. The more people isolate with their electronic gadgets, the less they are exercising their right brains. Right brain is crucial to Tao training. One reason why I do not get angry with internet generationers now is because I realize that most of their life has been spent using these devices and so many don't even know what right brain activities are like from an experiential standpoint. I have come to the conclusion that many internet generationers may actually be developmentally disabled from lack of right brain activities in their teenage years. I think this contributes to increased drug use among youth... Anyway, I can't prove that, it is only a theory...

 

I have a young student (18) who has been training with me for over a year now. I have been laying the energetic foundation with him for this past year and I told him I thought he was ready to learn how to practice with his right brain. I shared some techniques to engage his whole brain and I wish I could share with you the look on his face when he felt the energy. Now he is ready to start his real training. He is an exceptionally gifted student and it still took me over a year of two classes per week before he was ready for the real training to begin. This is not something that can be taught in books or videos.

 

So, my point here is IME, there is simply no way for someone to know whether or not they know anything about energy until they have been introduced to right brain practices. Books, internet, video are by definition left brain activities and as such, there is simply no way to learn these crucial right brain techniques (which cannot be put into words, images or texts) solely from these left brain sources and be able determine what you are learning from a right brain perspective. In fact if this is your only source of information, there is no way for you to objectively assess your learning abilities at all... This can only be achieved through personal, physical interaction with other students and teachers.

Edited March 1, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[zerostao]

ok, now i have gone thru and read the posts on this topic.

@ fiveelementtao. in my view this thread was started by you

because you were considerate and did not want to hijack

the Difference Between 3 Qigong Style thread?

because of an exchange of ideas between you and sloppy zhang on that thread?

so ,wasnt the idea of this thread to continue that conversation here?

You make many valid points and you have alot of experience and knowledge.

so why would you have a Reply To the Internet Generation discussion

and then put sloppy zhang on ignore?

 

sloppy zhang was giving insight directly from a member of the internet generation.

was your intention here to have a conversation or to lecture?

[RiverSnake]

Another aspect in all this which I think is very important is the left brain/right brain aspect to Tao training.

Internet, texting, video games and books are all left brain activities. The more people isolate with their electronic gadgets, the less they are exercising their right brains. Right brain is crucial to Tao training. One reason why I do not get angry with internet generationers now is because I realize that most of their life has been spent using these devices and so many don't even know what right brain activities are like from an experiential standpoint. I have come to the conclusion that many internet generationers may actually be developmentally disabled from lack of right brain activities in their teenage years. I think this contributes to increased drug use among youth... Anyway, I can't prove that, it is only a theory...

 

I have a young student (18) who has been training with me for over a year now. I have been laying the energetic foundation with him for this past year and I told him I thought he was ready to learn how to practice with his right brain. I shared some techniques to engage his whole brain and I wish I could share with you the look on his face when he felt the energy. Now he is ready to start his real training. He is an exceptionally gifted student and it still took me over a year of two classes per week before he was ready for the real training to begin. This is not something that can be taught in books or videos.

 

So, my point here is IME, there is simply no way for someone to know whether or not they know anything about energy until they have been introduced to right brain practices. Books, internet, video are by definition left brain activities and as such, there is simply no way to learn these crucial right brain techniques (which cannot be put into words, images or texts) solely from these left brain sources and be able determine what you are learning from a right brain perspective. In fact if this is your only source of information, there is no way for you to objectively assess your learning abilities at all... This can only be achieved through personal, physical interaction with other students and teachers.

 

I agree, i came from being a very left brain "world" and had to develop my right, my traditional education had taught me to ignore my gut instincts and intuition and put all my eggs in one basket.

 

-For those interested in some good activities to develop your right brain are dancing, martial arts...anything that involves "feeling" and intuitiveness. Plain conversation is also a good tool, talk to others and try and learn to gauge people by simply "feeling" them out.

 

-Also learn to feel yourself out, learn what you want and understand your own drives: this is extremely important.

[fiveelementtao]

ok, now i have gone thru and read the posts on this topic.

@ fiveelementtao. in my view this thread was started by you

because you were considerate and did not want to hijack

the Difference Between 3 Qigong Style thread?

because of an exchange of ideas between you and sloppy zhang on that thread?

so ,wasnt the idea of this thread to continue that conversation here?

You make many valid points and you have alot of experience and knowledge.

so why would you have a Reply To the Internet Generation discussion

and then put sloppy zhang on ignore?

 

sloppy zhang was giving insight directly from a member of the internet generation.

was your intention here to have a conversation or to lecture?

 

Good Question. I did not direct these comments at Sloppy by name. So, it is good you ask because this subject has been brewing in me for a while now. I am not intending to single sloppy out. as it so happens there are many, many on this forum who think similarly to him. My intentions are to share what I consider to be very important information to people honestly seeking spiritual paths... They can choose to listen or not. So, if that is a lecture, so be it. Some lectures are helpful. You can determine if mine are helpful or not... People can choose to ignore me too if they want. I won't take it personally.. But to spend energy arguing accomplishes nothing and I know Sloppy well enough that he will probably want to engage in intellectual debate about this issue. If I am wrong, I apologize. It wouldn;t be the first time and won't be the last. It's Ok with me if he and others don't like what I am saying. Sometimes speaking one's truth will offend others. On a personal note, engaging in intellectual hair splitting on this forum is not good for me on an emotional level. So, there are times when I need to use that function in order to avoid slipping into forum left brain intellectual hell...

 

So, IDK.. you can determine for yourself what my motives are and take that into consideration as you read my posts...

[fiveelementtao]

Yes! Dancing, playing music, acting, painting, drawing, any artistic activity, Composing music, Sports, (surfing-my personal favorite), martial arts, Any activity that requires a partner. These are all excellent methods for exercising the right brain and I whole heartedly agree that real time person-to-person (not online) communication is also very good at stimulating the right brain...

 

 

I agree, i came from being a very left brain "world" and had to develop my right, my traditional education had taught me to ignore my gut instincts and intuition and put all my eggs in one basket.

 

-For those interested in some good activities to develop your right brain are dancing, martial arts...anything that involves "feeling" and intuitiveness. Plain conversation is also a good tool, talk to others and try and learn to gauge people by simply "feeling" them out.

 

-Also learn to feel yourself out, learn what you want and understand your own drives: this is extremely important.

[宁]

Great thread! I think it's becoming harder and harder to work in the field of 'social' service, even more so if you are paid for it.

You say it started with television, I say it largely evolved with supermarkets!

 

[Stigweard]

Just to add a different slant to the discussion, if things are changing wouldn't a "good Taoist" simply find a way to appropriately adapt to the change rather than become sentimentally attached to "how things once were"??

 

Just a thought

[Walker]

Interesting post. I am a young man in his mid-late twenties, which means I am amongst the last in the developed world who glimpsed life before the internet. Nevertheless, I came of age at the same time as wired and wireless communication technology did.

 

In the past I occasionally used the internet to research and search for teachers (as well as lovers, something which is germane to this topic given what I'm about to say) and only once met with any success--and that was when I tracked down a fellow student of one of my main teacher's masters, meaning that in a sense we already shared a substantial real-world connection. On other occassions, at best I did not gel with the people I met online, and at worst I encountered major, major trouble.

 

Conversely, from my late teens onwards I have been blessed to have met some men and women of great cultivation in the US, New Zealand, and China simply on the basis of personal introduction, coincidence, and tracking people down with literal pavement pounding. It is truly astounding how many individuals of various levels of real cultivation I have met this way. Through the influence I have received from these people I have been blessed to grow from being a young fool to a person with a bit of root and direction in a relatively short period of time. The people on the internet... Well, I learned from them to stop using the internet so much.

 

I do not know enough about the brain to draw left-right hemisphere thought pattern dichotomies, but I do feel that the way we engage with the internet when we search for something is very, very different than how we engage with the real world whether looking for something or not. The internet may seem interactive, but it is not. Because it cannot talk back, it is all too easy to project onto it. Because those who are advertising themselves only reveal what they want to in their words, a form of communication that can hide much to those who are not quite sensitive to energy, it is very easy to be fooled.

 

Because the internet provides information almost solely of a type designed by and for the intellectual mind, we end up deciding on who we will contact online on the basis of how the various attributes people publish about themselves match up with what we believe we need. This is not at all how we meet people in the real world, even when we try to. After some years living in the wired world, I have come to believe that yuanfen either does not work online, no matter whether one be in search of lovers or teachers, or at best does so only with relative rarity and great handicap.

 

On the other hand, for those who have a spirit of sincerity and, yes, sacrifice, yuanfen is as alive and well as ever. Funny enough, I am a young person who is without great financial resources, but my life is saturated not simply with people of cultivation that I can learn from, but seldom have I been asked a penny, and I have even been given material support in addition to healing and the gift of wisdom by no small number of people. When one does not go out looking for handouts and gives freely whe one can, the world responds. Then again, at my age, living overseas in a house with no internet and no TV and a phone with half its buttons missing, I am a bit of an outlier. I am not sure how many people younger than me will come to realize that in addition to being a great tool (after all, it's very easy to find jobs overseas and buy plane tickets now, which is nice), the digital world just ain't no match for analog.

 

5ET, it is worth saying that one simply avoids the kind of student you describe by not advertising. You plug into the internet, and you naturally plug into its denizens. My primary teacher is a man I have known ten years whom I respect deeply--I lack the ability to assess people's qi or spiritual achievement, but I can say with confidence that his de is of rare, rare, rare caliber in today's world. He also generously and without reservation except for when students aren't ready teaches methods that many people on this forum think they want to learn. This man cannot be found in the phone book, on Google, on Facebook, or even in any photos if he has anything to say about it. I know of others who choose to meet with--or not meet with--students solely on the basis of yuanfen, and be sure they don't get the kind of phone calls you describe!

 

Sloppy Zhang... People were expected to work "all the time" long before smart phones and the next shiny thing. My mom was a waitress who was expected to sit at home next to the phone, just in case. There is a great Chinese medicine doctor in history, one of the true legends, had to teach himself the classics while his fellow workers ate lunch by the riverside and chided him for his dedication. I found time to frequently take the subway three hours round trip to see my teacher whilst finishing my last quarter of college as a full time student and a near full time waiter. This was not long ago. I did not sleep much, but I did it.

 

Anyway, logging off. There's fresher air out there to be breathed than that which has run through the humming guts of this CPU. And I live in one of the most polluted countries in the world and it's still the damn truth.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Walker

[fiveelementtao]

Just to add a different slant to the discussion, if things are changing wouldn't a "good Taoist" simply find a way to appropriately adapt to the change rather than become sentimentally attached to "how things once were"??

 

Just a thought

 

Playing devils' advocate? Or do you have some suggestions as to how one might adapt to whatever this change is you are referring to? Every generation has it's challenges. This is one of the current generation's challenges...

 

If you are suggesting that I have an emotional attachment to the past, I have no sentimental attachment to the "way things were". I am very excited about the present and I look forward to adapting to whatever changes are occurring... I used to want things to be different just as many on this forum would like to find the easy path to enlightnement. I completely understand their desire. I tried it too, for years... My experience, however, has taught me that some laws cannot be wished away. As much as I wanted high level taoist practices to magically appear and be handed to me, I had to make some decisions and sacrifices and I still do... That hasn't changed. As far as my emotional attachment is concerned, I do care very deeply about spiritual progress in this world. Anyone who knows me or is familiar with my work knows that I have shared huge amounts of teaching materials for free to anyone who asks and I will continue to do more in the future. My deep desire is to help. But sometimes, the kindest thing to do is speak some unfiltered truth and challenge denial. My methods are that of a spirit warrior and I do clash with people at times when my BS meter goes off. At least you know where I stand and I will speak the truth as I see it even if that means you may not like me as a result. But that is my way and I accept that. Some will respond positively to it. Other warriors have their way and know how to speak in ways that are less direct and challenging and others will respond to them... That is their way.. We each have our part to play in the grand scheme of things. I am playing mine as I understand it... There are some on this forum who may take some action based on what I have said. If I have to ruffle some feathers and bruise some egos along the way, I'm OK with that. So, this isn't about what I want to be true... If someone can find a way to do it the easy way from a computer or a book, please fill me in. I would love to get in on that... My experience has taught me very differently...

 

As someone who has trained with masters in person, Stig, I know you understand the difference....

 

@walker... great post... I will meditate on what you have posted... Thank you...

 

So, having said that, I am going to take a few days off from this forum...

 

See you in a few days...

[kitten_growingup]

Just a feedback from a young mother (our son is 2 years and 8 months old):

The internet, TV and others like this are not all left-brain. It depends on what is seen/trasmitted through the media and how it is used. Time spent, speed and visual/auditory/kinesthetic stimulation are important too when comes to left/right brain.

 

There is another part of 2000' generation - the one bred by parents knowingly educating them using right brain education also, according to child's developmental stages when it's most appropriate to use them to gain acces to right brain characteristics. And they can do that by using new technology also.

Sometimes the technology is more helpful in right brain teaching than using a person-to-person communication. Sometimes it depends on the child and teacher too. It depends on the way children learn - visual, kinesthetic etc.

 

I don't know how many of these parents exist, but I've seen the tendency increasing all over the world (Edit: I've been on an international forum for parents for a year or so, that's why I've had enough time to see something change - there are over 30.000 parents all over the world). And they are studying anything available related to the right brain teaching as they want their children to be more centered, balanced, aware. They talk about intuition, ESP and more and children show interest and results.

Those children are taught in every aspect - reading, writing, math, science, art, music etc. using both left/right brain teaching methods (from an early age).

Edited March 1, 2011 by kitten_growingup

[Thunder_Gooch]

The internet generation is usually able to find the information they need, when they need it and teach themselves for free.

 

When I look for a teacher and a system I ask myself what is the goal of this system, and what students have had success with it? Does it actually deliver or is it just more newage BS taught by some loser living in his moms basement trying to make a buck?

 

You have to remember 99.99999% of spiritual systems out there don't actually do anything. This market is mostly filled with scams. Show us the beef and make a good product, don't gouge on price and we will buy it.

 

Just my $0.02

Edited March 1, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[-O-]

5ET is not the only one to notice this...

 

The last few generations have been labelled folks with an "entitlement" attitude. The business community has found this too. Youngins right out of school expect to sit around the table with the president, and like the Universe they prize results over, in their case, experience... I believe this generations thinking is... "if I'm capable of doing it - what does my age have to do with anything"... And allot of business leaders are giving them the chance to the chagrin of other senior and middle managers and guess what they find.... allot of cases they are capable in spite of their age.

 

A couple years ago I worked with a company who handed and entire busines unit over to a 22 year old who had been out of business school for only three months. They gave her a Senior VP role to the dismay of allot of people who had built a sucessful track record for a couple decades to get to that level... guess what, she succeeded where three other, very senior business managers had failed miserably before her.

 

 

I don't think the issue is really TV, internet, mobile devices, so much as it is access to more information than any other generation before it. And with that information comes choices (think Futureshock). So what might appear as irresponsible, lazy, and disrespectful might be due to the fact that you are not the only teacher they are "interviewing" and that interviewing is an act of taking responsibility for their decision... something previous generations have had a hard time with.

 

I think teachers need to ebb and flow with the times - that is only natural to the Tao. I think the days of students gobbling up what teacher says just because teacher says it are coming to an end.

 

I think the idea of having to suffer as a nessecity is a little skewed. We have to work hard, yes and no one can do the work for you... but where is the logic in - the more suffering you have endured entitles you to more respect.... Like 5ET says the Universe doesn't care about excuses... and the idea that one has to suffered lots to earned the right is another form of excuse because their suffering might have nothing to do with the result which that person has produced.

 

The whole argument for why these students are not worth teaching could be reversed and be said that a teacher who is not willing to adapt (or draw knee jerk generalizations about an entire generation) is not worht studying with.

 

I think we must keep in mind the teaching structure in place re these spiritual practices are highly traditional, based on a history of an entirely different culture. And this occasionally begs the question... is it really the appropriate way to teach in this culture?

 

 

[markern]

I agree with some of the things in the opening post but would like to mention that at thedharmaovergroundorg they have had spectacular success at helping people reach very high levels with Vipassana in a very short time. Zero contact with live teachers and yet far faster results than most traditional teachers would get with their students. Many there have also had extensive training with traditional teachers and can compare. And we are talking results such as stream entry and far beyond and mastery of all the eight Jhanas. THese are not small attinments and they are done solely via the writen word on the web. Although Daniel Ingrams work is the key in this progress the exchange of experience between the community of practioners has significantly improved upon the teachings he had to begin with.

 

Anotehr interesting example is AYP. No one has ever met the teacher and no one knows his real name. Yet through his books, his online lesons, his answers to students in the forum and via mail and through the exchange of experience between students in the forum the AYP students have done very, very well.

 

It is also a fact that you will often get very little actual time to get questions answered thorougly by teachers in workshops and retreats. THe depth of answers you can get from a teacher such as Yogani or Ingram when they repeatedly answer questions and questions to answers and five advanced students chip in and give their perspectives in posts that in total took many hours to write, often transmitt more and more precise knowledge than you can get in person.

 

KAP taguht via skype also works excelent.

 

Teryy Dunns teaching of his system via DVDs and a thread here on thetaobums also work very well.

 

THat said I certainly want as much personal contact with teachers as possible as I find that highly valuable as well and there are aspects of what you can get in a personal student teacher relationship that you can`t`get online. However, I do not find it essential for high attainments, even high levels of enlightenment, and I think I have backed that up about as well as antyhing can be backed up in the world of cultivation with the four mentioned cases.