Internet Generation and Tao Training

[markern]

5ET is not the only one to notice this...

 

The last few generations have been labelled folks with an "entitlement" attitude. The business community has found this too. Youngins right out of school expect to sit around the table with the president, and like the Universe they prize results over, in their case, experience... I believe this generations thinking is... "if I'm capable of doing it - what does my age have to do with anything"... And allot of business leaders are giving them the chance to the chagrin of other senior and middle managers and guess what they find.... allot of cases they are capable in spite of their age.

 

A couple years ago I worked with a company who handed and entire busines unit over to a 22 year old who had been out of business school for only three months. They gave her a Senior VP role to the dismay of allot of people who had built a sucessful track record for a couple decades to get to that level... guess what, she succeeded where three other, very senior business managers had failed miserably before her.

 

 

I don't think the issue is really TV, internet, mobile devices, so much as it is access to more information than any other generation before it. And with that information comes choices (think Futureshock). So what might appear as irresponsible, lazy, and disrespectful might be due to the fact that you are not the only teacher they are "interviewing" and that interviewing is an act of taking responsibility for their decision... something previous generations have had a hard time with.

 

I think teachers need to ebb and flow with the times - that is only natural to the Tao. I think the days of students gobbling up what teacher says just because teacher says it are coming to an end.

 

I think the idea of having to suffer as a nessecity is a little skewed. We have to work hard, yes and no one can do the work for you... but where is the logic in - the more suffering you have endured entitles you to more respect.... Like 5ET says the Universe doesn't care about excuses... and the idea that one has to suffered lots to earned the right is another form of excuse because their suffering might have nothing to do with the result which that person has produced.

 

The whole argument for why these students are not worth teaching could be reversed and be said that a teacher who is not willing to adapt (or draw knee jerk generalizations about an entire generation) is not worht studying with.

 

I think we must keep in mind the teaching structure in place re these spiritual practices are highly traditional, based on a history of an entirely different culture. And this occasionally begs the question... is it really the appropriate way to teach in this culture?

 

Nice post! With regards to "interviewing" different teachers. If I am to learn something that in fact will (positively in most cases) lobotomize my brain, which is what meditation will do to you in a sense, then of course anyone should inquire in depth about what exactly will be thaught and what it will do to them. I certainly would like to have explained in as much detail what exactly I am about to put myself through so that I can evaluate it properly and compare it with the other options.

[markern]

THat said, I do belive 5ET is righ that the current generation suffers from an entitelment syndrome that can create a lot of problems. But I would blame celebrity cult, reality tv, wealth, the after effects of hipie ideaology and several other factors just as much or more than the inernet for that.

[JohnC]

Anybody upset with what 5ET said may want to take a look at how they actually think about themselves in that way.

 

That he hit a nerve.

 

5ET,

 

I hear you.

 

Although I have an unshakable faith in humanity. We(humans) are lazy, but we are also hard working when we don't like something.

 

We won't stop destroying the environment till its a pain in our butt, but once it is we'll hustle. And anything we destroy we can recreate.

 

Frankly some change would be good, I think.

 

John

Edited March 1, 2011 by JohnC

[-O-]

Edited March 1, 2011 by -O-

[Sloppy Zhang]

Another aspect in all this which I think is very important is the left brain/right brain aspect to Tao training.

Internet, texting, video games and books are all left brain activities.

 

This to mean SCREAMS a lack of personal experience with the current culture, and with the internet in general.

 

In yang there is yin, in yin there is yang, right? Or are we forgetting some basic taoist philosophy?

 

The internet has allowed an EXPLOSION in creativity and swapping of right brain ideas. Right brain inspiration has spurred on the left brain to create ways to further books right brain capabilities!

 

If you don't see this, you aren't paying attention!

 

Good Question. I did not direct these comments at Sloppy by name.

 

No, but significant portions of your original post were in response to things I've said, or paraphrases of things that I've said in other threads.

 

So, it is good you ask because this subject has been brewing in me for a while now. I am not intending to single sloppy out.

 

However, I am a member of the generation that you are referring to. Perhaps it'd be good to, I dunno, actually get the perspective of someone on the inside, find out what's really going on, as opposed to what you think is going on?

 

Of course, if I'm still on the ignored user's list, you aren't hearing any of this!

 

Just to add a different slant to the discussion, if things are changing wouldn't a "good Taoist" simply find a way to appropriately adapt to the change rather than become sentimentally attached to "how things once were"??

 

Just a thought

 

+10000

 

Playing devils' advocate? Or do you have some suggestions as to how one might adapt to whatever this change is you are referring to?

 

You could find ways to connect with and understand the current generation. You could get rid of preconceived notions about how things "should" be and instead look at how things "are". From this, you could ask yourself, "how can I work with how things ARE?" rather than asking yourself, "how can I take how things are, make them as I think they should be, and then work from that?" Right now you're adding an extra step that is unnecessary, and which is ultimately doomed to fail in most cases. You're asking people to go against the grain before they even start to learn. How about you work with what they know, rather than make them into something else before you even start?

 

Of course, since I'm blocked you won't hear these suggestions. And since you've taken your little break, you won't hear anything. I don't know what you hoped to convey by this little stunt buuuuuuuuut it's not very productive, and the type of "say what you want and then run and hide" is not a very mature or respectful way of handling such an important discussion.

 

Every generation has it's challenges. This is one of the current generation's challenges...

 

This wording, to me, seems to mean that you think one of the generation's challenges is learning how to be like the old generation. Your priorities are a little bit messed up.

 

If anything the new generation's challenges are to learn how to adapt healthfully into the current life situations they face. And that's applicable to EVERY generation. As others have pointed out, we aren't the first "problem generation".

 

But sometimes, the kindest thing to do is speak some unfiltered truth and challenge denial.

 

"Unfiltered truth"? HA. Says the dude who blocked someone who is presented ideas which challenge his own!

 

At least you know where I stand and I will speak the truth as I see it even if that means you may not like me as a result.

 

To bad you block users when they take the same stance!

 

 

That he hit a nerve.

 

The nerve he hit, if you insist that he did hit a nerve, was the "arrogant assumptions and ignorance" nerve.

 

Not only has he made many generalizations and assumptions (which I have rebutted), he has made it clear that he is NOT INTERESTED in any sort of mature discourse. He is not interested in hearing the other side of the story. He is not willing to hear out and even attempt to connect with other perspectives.

 

This rigid, disconnected, isolated stance is not going to get ANYWHERE. I daresay it's the root cause of many problems in the world- everyone comes into a certain situation, thinks they know what the problem is, thinks they have the solution, and will talk past everybody (including the people who are the target audience!) until they get their way!

 

 

Perhaps it would serve people to look beyond just the words being said, look at the behavior, the attitude, the structure, the word choices, and most of all, look at the ASSUMPTIONS that his argument is based upon!

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[zerostao]

-O- you make some points that make sense to me.

in regards to this early 20's generation and a bit younger,

i have great confidence in them. from what i have seen they

are remarkable in their spirit and towards me they have shown

kindness and great respect. even to the point at times it

has truly humbled me.

 

did we ever say what this "tao training" is specifically?

no one owns the tao or controls it either. my understanding is,

it is cool to be in harmony with the tao.

 

i never try and criticize anyone , i cannot determine

what struggles they are dealing with or which battles they

are now fighting. each and everyone one of us, regardless

of social status, age, experience,knowledge is dealing with

this in some form.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy Zhang... People were expected to work "all the time" long before smart phones and the next shiny thing. My mom was a waitress who was expected to sit at home next to the phone, just in case. There is a great Chinese medicine doctor in history, one of the true legends, had to teach himself the classics while his fellow workers ate lunch by the riverside and chided him for his dedication. I found time to frequently take the subway three hours round trip to see my teacher whilst finishing my last quarter of college as a full time student and a near full time waiter. This was not long ago. I did not sleep much, but I did it.

 

So we come full circle to the point that I'm making: EVERYONE is working. Everyone has to struggle and make sacrifices. Do you have a smart phone in your hand, or a shovel? Neither one makes you feel any more "entitled", you still have to bust your ass.

 

5ET assumes that just 'cause you can get stuff done instantly, that you expect to get rewards instantly. And that is just not the case. Anyone living in the modern world who actually has to keep a job will tell you that. If anything, people assume that since you can get stuff done more quickly, that you can handle MORE work.

 

Same struggles, same effort. Different forms.

 

Of course, 5ET cannot be bothered to learn this. The point I'm trying to make (for those willing to learn something new), is that you can't judge from the outside perspective. You can't just look and say, "hah, he doesn't have to dig ditches all day, his life is so care free! He's just complaining for no reason!"

 

After some years living in the wired world, I have come to believe that yuanfen either does not work online, no matter whether one be in search of lovers or teachers, or at best does so only with relative rarity and great handicap.

 

Completely disagree. All too often, I stumble across the right thing at the right time on the net.

 

If you are open to it, you'll receive it. If you are closed to it, it will find someone else.

 

Universal principles should not be slowed because of the internet.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[gendao]

5ET is not the only one to notice this...

 

The last few generations have been labelled folks with an "entitlement" attitude.

Lol, but the funny thing is that these attitudes were all created by the liberal Baby Boomers themselves!

 

They angrily rebelled against their own parents, living responsibly within your means and worked tirelessly to dismantle the "oppresssive Patriarchy/establishment."

 

Hey, if Johnny is acting up and doing poorly in school...then we should make school easier for him to boost his self-esteem! Not discipline him and make him try harder!

 

But now that they have become the "Patriarchy/establishment," they are upset that the young'uns are treating them even worse then they had treated their own parentals...lol. But like father, like son..

 

 

Well maybe eventually, teachers will even have to make housecalls and pay students to teach them???

[-O-]

[VCraigP]

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[-O-]

I think this is a crucial point which should be contemplated a bit.

 

In order to give proper respect one must have some understanding of what the expectation of the person to whom you are showing respect might be....

 

by the same token the point should be understood clearly that older folks need to get a sense of the ways of being exhibited by younger generations in order to also facilitate this important communication.

 

Finally I have to put forth what I was taught by my first MA teacher. It is not generally true in western culture, but in most if not all asian culture one is afforded respect merely due to the fact of being older, if even by a small margin, only because this means the person has had more life experience. I adhere to this concept, although I believe many younger folks here may disagree, this is my default setting. Of course if any individual older person exhibits behavior of an a..hole then this default respect can be discarded at will.

 

Craig

 

I agree with this... I come from a long line of military folk (I'm the first in 5 generations to not join the service ) so was raised with the default to respect your elders...

 

I think sometimes respect is shown in different methods which is not always understood and IMO that changes from generation to generation.

 

I find this to be a Canadian thing - however other Canadians might disagree.... Canadians are known to be very polite and apologetic. This is sometimes seen as a weakness however it is born more out of ease rather than "respect". If you step on my toe I will say "Opps sorry" for being in your way. However it is more like saying - this situation (or "you") is not worth the trouble to make a stance against (or for).... but as you get to know us... as you become important to a Canuck, we will be increasingly more out spoken, even in your face at times. It’s because you are now important enough to make a stance for or against.... so it appears to be disrespectful it is actually one of the higher forms of respect we show.

 

I remember when I began learning from one teacher - I was very young - it was an Asian method - but I had no idea of the origins of the method or the teacher's background, I had never been involved in Asian methods before etc..

 

I had begun the studies long distance and then after some time had the chance to meet the teacher face to face. When we met, I, at least thought, I was being respectful. I shook his hand. I was not being casual or too friendly with him, was only speaking when spoken too etc. He stood there for a long time looking at me. Until he finally said "I am waiting for you to bow to me". I did so and apologized.

 

I think this is an example that sometimes how we are being respectful and what is expected as respect can be very different things. In this case it was a cultural expectation for which I had no means on my own to know.

 

I think the respect we can show the younger generations is to, at the very least, offer some listening and thought to decipher just what is being communicated to us. They might be showing it in a way that we would not normally consider respectful.

Edited March 1, 2011 by -O-

[Sloppy Zhang]

[al.]

My link

 

My link

 

We can't escape "the BLOB"!!!

 

The advent of the internet and the 'technological revolution' is amazing in many, many ways; but it also carries with it a very powerful and potentially destructive effect.

 

The student-teacher relationship has always carried these problems- ever heard of the expression-

 

'to teach the student is to starve the teacher'...

[-O-]

My link

 

My link

 

We can't escape "the BLOB"!!!

 

The advent of the internet and the 'technological revolution' is amazing in many, many ways; but it also carries with it a very powerful and potentially destructive effect.

 

The student-teacher relationship has always carried these problems- ever heard of the expression-

 

'to teach the student is to starve the teacher'...

 

Looks like an interesting movie.

[Stigweard]

The challenge of every teacher in every generation is how to best serve humanity. How you respond to that challenge depends many factors not the least of which is following ones own predilection.

 

Here is a tale I have received:

 

Nineteen years after Huang Di, The Yellow Emperor, was enthroned he went to learn from Kang Cheng Tzu on Kun Tung mountain.

 

"I wish to know the most powerful energy to help the growth of crops to feed me people," Huang Di asked. "I also wish to learn to control yin and yang to harmonize all things. How can I achieve this?"

 

Kang Cheng Tzu answered, "What you ask lies within the coarse material sphere of things, and what you want is to extend your influence over all things. Do you want to use all those unusual natural phenomena as opportunities to rule the world? Keeping to the narrowness of your mind, how can you understand the path of ultimate truth?"

 

Therefore Huang Di separated himself from the affairs of state. He stayed in specially built house with couch grass on the floor for three months. Then he went to make another request.

 

Kang Cheng Tzu was resting on his bed, facing south, and Huang Di approached him, walking on his knees. He bowed low, touching his head to the ground and asked, "I hear you have reached the highest state of the ultimate truth. I beg to know how to cultivate myself to achieve eternal life."

 

Surprised Kang Cheng Tzu sat up and said, "Well asked! Listen, and I will tell you the highest state of the ultimate truth."

 

---------

 

This story has lessons for both students and teachers.

 

[Immortal4life]

Here are some excellent frontline documentaries, about this issue and the difference between generations now. One quote from the program "It has been said that the internet has created the biggest generation gap since rock and roll".

 

2007 Frontline: Growing Up Online-

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kidsonline/view/main.html

 

However, it would seem today in 2011 it is not just the youth, but everyone who is now immersed in digital media

 

2011 Frontline: Digital Nation-

http://video.pbs.org/video/1402987791/

 

At the end of the day technolgy is here, and it's a reality, whether you are a digtial native of the younger generation, or a digital immigrant of the older generation. You will have to adapt and change to the new world. It is now a Millenial's world, and if the Generation Xers don't keep up with them, they will be left behind.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Immortal4life

[-O-]

Here are some excellent frontline documentaries, about this issue and the difference between generations now. One quote from the program "It has been said that the internet has created the biggest generation gap since rock and roll".

 

2007 Frontline: Growing Up Online-

http://www.pbs.org/w.../view/main.html

 

However, it would seem today in 2011 it is not just the youth, but everyone who is now immersed in digital media

 

2011 Frontline: Digital Nation-

http://video.pbs.org/video/1402987791/

 

At the end of the day technolgy is here, and it's a reality, whether you are a digtial native of the younger generation, or a digital immigrant of the older generation. You will have to adapt and change to the new world. It is now a Millenial's world, and if the Generation Xers don't keep up with them, they will be left behind.

 

 

 

I would like to point out the fact that the digital world of today became mainstream and part of our current culture because of 40 year olds like myself who embraced and found a way to tame this beast.... I would say we older folk are the natives (we don't need anymore ageism re:digital life than what has already carried over to today from our younger days when the old folks to us were not digitized yet)

 

 

[Ya Mu]

I would like to point out the fact that the digital world of today became mainstream and part of our current culture because of 40 year olds like myself who embraced and found a way to tame this beast.... I would say we older folk are the natives (we don't need anymore ageism re:digital life than what has already carried over to today from our younger days when the old folks to us were not digitized yet)

Yes, I didn't "grow up" on the internet but was involved with the internet before it was an internet.

So I don't consider this issue to be "net generation" versus "not net generation".

 

I think it is simply an issue of damnlazy versus not damnlazy and respectful versus not respectful. In part the damnlazy IS caused by parents who didn't see that their kids needed to learn a work ethic. Work? Nah, hang at the mall, watch tv, play video games, surf internet.

 

We all have had our difficulties and it certainly is not confined to current younger generation. Seems to me to much whining going on. I worked nights as a janitor, weekends as a painter/odd jobs, and summers as a deck hand to put myself through college. Big deal.

[-O-]

...In part the damnlazy IS caused by parents who didn't see that their kids needed to learn a work ethic. Work? Nah, hang at the mall, watch tv, play video games, surf internet.

...

 

 

I agree with you, but I would be careful about blaming the parents (I take it you are not one?).

 

Remember it is Nature AND Nurture that makes up our personality.

 

My lack of work ethic in days gone past was definately not due to a lack of effort from my folks (specifically my old man).

 

It was something that just couldn't get through my stuborn and thick head until I was a bit older than most.

Edited March 2, 2011 by -O-

[Ya Mu]

I agree with you, but I would be careful about blaming the parents (I take it you are not one?).

 

Remember it is Nature AND Nurture that makes up our personality.

 

My lack of work ethic in days gone past was definately not due to a lack of effort from my folks (specifically my old man).

 

It was something that just couldn't get through my stuborn and thick head until I was a bit older than most.

Surely you are correct - not all parents are to blame. As I said, it boils down to damnlazy. But still, far too many are. It was kinda like, well, I had to work my ass off when I was young and I don't want my kids to have to do that OR both parents too busy working to see to it that their kids learned a work ethic. At least that is what I see in my family, my community, nearby towns, other cities, and our nation(USA). We as a majority have most definitely lost our work ethic.

My point was I don't see it as an internet thing per se but as an overall energetic problem and I was placing only a part on the parents of my generation. Personally I worked my butt off as a kid and I learned a work ethic that simply is not prevalent in today's younger people. Again, not all - just the majority. A parent CAN choose to allow their children only certain time on the internet, only a certain time texting, etc and CAN instill in their children a work ethic. Now so many don't even know how. it's now like "Pay for my own phone? Ah come on dad! Nobody else has to do that."

 

As far as energetic arts, there is no debate to be had, anyone that thinks all the crap on the internet is the inherent aspect of true energetic arts simply has not been exposed to the real thing. Not the same thing, at all.

[-O-]

Surely you are correct - not all parents are to blame. As I said, it boils down to damnlazy. But still, far too many are. It was kinda like, well, I had to work my ass off when I was young and I don't want my kids to have to do that OR both parents too busy working to see to it that their kids learned a work ethic. At least that is what I see in my family, my community, nearby towns, other cities, and our nation(USA). We as a majority have most definitely lost our work ethic.

My point was I don't see it as an internet thing per se but as an overall energetic problem and I was placing only a part on the parents of my generation. Personally I worked my butt off as a kid and I learned a work ethic that simply is not prevalent in today's younger people. Again, not all - just the majority. A parent CAN choose to allow their children only certain time on the internet, only a certain time texting, etc and CAN instill in their children a work ethic. Now so many don't even know how. it's now like "Pay for my own phone? Ah come on dad! Nobody else has to do that."

 

As far as energetic arts, there is no debate to be had, anyone that thinks all the crap on the internet is the inherent aspect of true energetic arts simply has not been exposed to the real thing. Not the same thing, at all.

 

I started working with my Dad on weekends when I was thirteen (without pay) and at 15 - a couple evenings and weekends(for pay). Worked in a bakery at the same time -

 

when I was a little older I was a Champion kickboxer tournament competitor (started Kenpo Karate at 11 and began seriously competing at 15) and worked out from around 4;30-9:30 3 nights a week, and 2 hours of stretching and running every morning - did that for years.

 

My day would start at 5am - run - sit-ups(2 sets of 300), push-ups(2 sets of 100), shower - do homework - ride my bike to school. - school - bakery from 3:30-4:30, ride to the dojo to open and get ready for clases which started at 5 (gave me about 20 minutes t do some more strretching) - Teach the beginner class, workout in the advance class - 1 hour free sparing- ride home to be there by 10 (and hit the sack unless I had lots of homework - which ussually didn't get done).... on the off nights I would ride from the bakery to whatever construction site my dad was working at and work with him until around 7 and catch a ride home...

 

Inspite of all of that routine and discipline my Father gave me (and allowed me) the value of "work" (not effort - but of earning a living) never sunk in until way later. If I didn't want to do something - I just didn't do it!

 

 

One thing that the internet does provide - not the essence of a teaching, but perhaps the essence of a teacher...

 

if I had say the exposure we have hear - I would have chosen or been able to choose differently than I had... example - I find (not blowing smoke) your style or Hundun's to fit better for me (from what I can see here) than some of the teachers I had spent time with (who I don't really consider to be "teachers" now after some experience)... with some of the ones which did have something to offer with substance their goals, I gues you could say, or mixed ideology was not something I would have been interested in if I knew about it up front (in fact I would have stayed away).

Edited March 2, 2011 by -O-

[Sloppy Zhang]

A parent CAN choose to allow their children only certain time on the internet, only a certain time texting, etc and CAN instill in their children a work ethic.

 

It's a completely different dynamic though!

 

Even just considering school, when I was in high school, over half of my assignments were either supplemented by, or directly required, the internet. Now that I'm in college, my assignments are almost ENTIRELY required to be done online.

 

It is assumed that you have access to texting or social media when working in group projects. I myself don't have a facebook, but almost everyone else does, and facebook is a medium through which people can send messages (including work related stuff).

 

So time management is not "the next two hours are internet time, after that it's no internet time". You've got learn how to manage yourself while on the internet. You've got to learn how to say, "I've got to research ancient Mayan architecture, not get into a debate on TTB's."

 

Because chances are you're going to be on the internet either way.

 

And this standard is moving down through the grades as well- I see articles about a lot of middle schools, and even elementary schools, becoming more centered around internet means by which to conduct education.

 

The internet is just a medium through which you demonstrate your discipline, or lack thereof. Being off the internet won't make you a more disciplined person, and being on the internet won't make you less of one.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ya Mu]

...The internet is just a medium through which you demonstrate your discipline, or lack thereof...

I agree with you.

Inherent difference in dynamics? Nope. Parents can choose to monitor activity - surfing for pictures and chatting with friends is not the same thing as a group project. Before internet getting the child to assume responsibility is EXACTLY the same thing as today. Hopefully you yourself are way past what I am referring to. If you are not, you are probably flunking school.

 

edit: I will say this though. Either you are a genius or you are majoring in underwater basketweaving, which, last I checked didn't offer too many job opportunities. ALL the time that you post here - there is absolutely NO WAY I would have been able to do that in university. Some of your arguments are good but have you considered that you could have gotten a job and been paid for all those hours you have spent posting? And used the money to attend weekend workshops? And already know things that a teacher could offer you? I am sure you have a brilliant comeback to that but just consider for a moment.

 

O

You were indulged in sports instead of taught a work ethic. Hopefully the sports DID instill some really good things for you. But this is another example of what happens to a lot of kids - their parents allow that indulgence with no balance, usually football in this country.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Ya Mu

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend