Internet Generation and Tao Training

[Sloppy Zhang]

Good points. Regarding discussion, of the taoists I have known and do know, non were/are particularly against discussion. Most partake of it themselves. Discussion can sometimes be quite helpful in passing general ideas and concepts and methods and experiences along, and in determining how well someone understands a concept, etc. However, there is a time for discussion and a time for practice. I think it is really when the time for practice starts to suffer that there starts to be a problem, but this is something that we all could no doubt improve on at least somewhat.

 

*pats wayisvirtue on back*

 

 

 

[Encephalon]

As one person who has left described this place as having become " a place where a bunch of "pat-each-other-on-back-juveniles have taken over"... I must say that I am beginning to agree...

 

I share your sentiments. I'm back in here after another self-imposed ban because I'm recouping from surgery and am getting a little bored, but I still get a kick over what gets posted. And of course you're aware that I have a well-earned reputation for murdering young souls for sport.

 

I wonder what it would be like if I had access to online forums starting around the age of 8 instead of my access at the age of 38. What are the implications for socialization? What would it be like if you grew up in an environment where you could expect to disseminate your slightest whims with impunity and never be challenged? What would happen if we were suddenly obliged to unreflectively accept everything someone posted in the interest of making nice? Jesus, you wouldn't believe some of the things some members have demanded from me. On second thought, you would.

 

It's too easy to arrive in midlife and lament the intellectual and social impoverishment of the following generations, but I often feel like my generation, born in 1960, got the last decent shreds of what public education could offer. I dropped out of HS in 1978 because I found marijuana to be infinitely more fascinating than HS bullshit, but grades 1-8 were pretty darn good. We got the 3 Rs and I made it into jazz band, Star Trek was still a distant plausibility, Kwai Chang was offering an alternative, and Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Weather Report, and Jean Luc Ponty actually demonstrated real musicianship. That was a fertile time, and it really seems that by 1984, we lost the ability to even communicate, just like in "1984."

 

Well, as a man with an expectant wife, you can bet my kid won't be sucking the teat of public education, nor will (s)he be going on line and working on diabetes. I'm musing now, signing off.

[The Way Is Virtue]

And of course you're aware that I have a well-earned reputation for murdering young souls for sport.

 

Well, at least in your own mind anyway.

[The Way Is Virtue]

*pats wayisvirtue on back*

 

 

Hey Thanks Sloppy. I had some dust on my back and I think you got some of it off.

*TWIV reaches over to pat Sloppy of the back.*

 

*TWIV then reaches over and pats Ya Mu, 5ET, and Blasto on the back, as he can see a bit of dust there as well.*

 

*Allan appears out of thin air again and says, "If you only knew how to cultivate complete stillness properly you would none of you have even one speck of dust on your backs!"*

 

*TWIV ponders this for a moment and then says, "Are we not all brothers and sisters in tao? Maybe we can help each other in this respect if we only have the heart and spirit to do so.", and then turns to go on his way... *

 

Best to everyone...

 

 

 

 

.

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[fiveelementtao]

I share your sentiments. I'm back in here after another self-imposed ban because I'm recouping from surgery and am getting a little bored, but I still get a kick over what gets posted. And of course you're aware that I have a well-earned reputation for murdering young souls for sport.

 

I wonder what it would be like if I had access to online forums starting around the age of 8 instead of my access at the age of 38. What are the implications for socialization? What would it be like if you grew up in an environment where you could expect to disseminate your slightest whims with impunity and never be challenged? What would happen if we were suddenly obliged to unreflectively accept everything someone posted in the interest of making nice? Jesus, you wouldn't believe some of the things some members have demanded from me. On second thought, you would.

 

It's too easy to arrive in midlife and lament the intellectual and social impoverishment of the following generations, but I often feel like my generation, born in 1960, got the last decent shreds of what public education could offer. I dropped out of HS in 1978 because I found marijuana to be infinitely more fascinating than HS bullshit, but grades 1-8 were pretty darn good. We got the 3 Rs and I made it into jazz band, Star Trek was still a distant plausibility, Kwai Chang was offering an alternative, and Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Weather Report, and Jean Luc Ponty actually demonstrated real musicianship. That was a fertile time, and it really seems that by 1984, we lost the ability to even communicate, just like in "1984."

 

Well, as a man with an expectant wife, you can bet my kid won't be sucking the teat of public education, nor will (s)he be going on line and working on diabetes. I'm musing now, signing off.

 

Jean Luc ponty! That was damn good music!!!!

[fiveelementtao]

Yup... Looking back, I am a little mystified how a really exciting (and I think inspiring) discussion on destiny has devolved into this petty bickering and backstabbing and schoolyard clique-shness... certainly wasn't my intention when I shared my experience with it... I refused to indulge someone's demand to "prove" myself according to the parameters of their demands and then somehow I allowed myself to reflect the impression others had that I was offended... I have not as yet to my knowledge attacked anyone's character, yet seemingly whenever someone disagrees with me, inevitably the focus shifts from the discussion to my integrity or character or spirituality... So, makes me wonder... I think that as I have said before that the combination of keyboards and lack of physical presence traps the attention in the left brain and discord is the only result unless we are determined to agree with each other or attack each other and real discussion and sharing of personal feelings and experience goes out the window. I guess if I hadn't experienced anything but forums, I might not know the difference. Or when someone asked me my feelings, I might respond as Way did and say, "My personal experience is really not a factor in that at all, that I can see."

Since Tao is an experiential path, I just don't see how any real learning can take place in a scenario where personal experience and emotions (other than anger) have no place?

It seems that this scenario just does not foster any kind of real interaction other than the left brain intellectual kind and perhaps I just need to step out of denial on this.

I think it's time for me to go. I am not getting much out of any subjects being shared on this part of the discussion forum... For example, there are currently two separate threads on how to increase penis size I'm still trying to figure out what the hell that has to do with Tao in any way.... It appears my perspective is not warmly received by many... Which means I am giving out unsolicited advice... I know I don't like it when people do that to me... so, as I think about it, if I am not here for my own edification and what I find inspiring seems to only push peoples' authority buttons... What's the point?

 

Anyone interested in starting a new forum focused on practices instead of just books?

 

Anywho, my friends... I'm going to take a month hiatus from here and decide if there is any point in coming back...

 

Blessings to all...

Edited March 7, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[lazy cloud]

Hopefully alot of lessons can be taken out of this thread. It was rather painful to follow from any perspective. To 5ET and Ya Mu's credit they do provide links,books, and dvds AND they personally teach.

IMO 5ET tried to use a motivational technique that just took an unintended turn.

(for the worse) Such is the way of risk taking.

In any teacher/student dynamic there can/will be misunderstandings.

What if we frustrate the decent teachers to the point where they say "Hey I got this , why should I care if anyone else gets it or not?"

[Sloppy Zhang]

IMO 5ET tried to use a motivational technique that just took an unintended turn.

(for the worse) Such is the way of risk taking.

 

Well one of the points that William Mistele raised in the article I linked is that some people, even when they are in the act of apologizing or making amends, cannot help but sneak a few digs into the people with whom they are conversing, principally my re-framing whatever terms that person has used in order to paint their position in a different light.

 

You can notice it quite a bit in 5ET's post above yours, lazy cloud. (and in a few other places from a few other people!)

 

At the same time, I've seen 5ET purposefully bait people and play games. For instance, someone in another thread asked a question, and 5ET's first post was, "what did your teacher say when you asked him/her?" At least from my position, it's pretty safe to say that the person was practicing on their own, otherwise they would have included insight from their teacher in their post. But it seemed like 5ET couldn't resist bringing up the topic about absolutely NEEDING to have a teacher, for nothing else will do, which not only is a point that has been beaten to death, but for some reason he did NOT just bring up the topic DIRECTLY, but had to circuitously bring up the topic by forcing the admission of the person. If he genuinely wasn't sure if the person had a teacher, he could have just asked, "do you have a teacher? If so, have you tried asking them? If not, are there any in your area? Where do you live, perhaps I can help?"

 

In my opinion, actions like that are rather sneaky, and reek of some pretty serious personal issues- that of relishing superiority, and forcing others to acknowledge that superiority themselves.

 

I have no problem with people who have different philosophies than myself, I have no problem with people feeling the need to bring it up whenever they see fit. But good lord, if you've got something to say, then just fucking say it! And if you've got a disagreement, then good lord, respect the other person's opinion and experience! Rolling your eyes at the person you are trying to make amends with doesn't help your cause, no matter how many times you say, "but what I said was...."

Edited March 8, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[lazy cloud]

Well one of the points that William Mistele raised in the article I linked is that some people, even when they are in the act of apologizing or making amends, cannot help but sneak a few digs into the people with whom they are conversing, principally my re-framing whatever terms that person has used in order to paint their position in a different light.

 

You can notice it quite a bit in 5ET's post above yours, lazy cloud. (and in a few other places from a few other people!)

 

At the same time, I've seen 5ET purposefully bait people and play games. For instance, someone in another thread asked a question, and 5ET's first post was, "what did your teacher say when you asked him/her?" At least from my position, it's pretty safe to say that the person was practicing on their own, otherwise they would have included insight from their teacher in their post. But it seemed like 5ET couldn't resist bringing up the topic about absolutely NEEDING to have a teacher, for nothing else will do, which not only is a point that has been beaten to death, but for some reason he did NOT just bring up the topic DIRECTLY, but had to circuitously bring up the topic by forcing the admission of the person. If he genuinely wasn't sure if the person had a teacher, he could have just asked, "do you have a teacher? If so, have you tried asking them? If not, are there any in your area? Where do you live, perhaps I can help?"

 

In my opinion, actions like that are rather sneaky, and reek of some pretty serious personal issues- that of relishing superiority, and forcing others to acknowledge that superiority themselves.

 

I have no problem with people who have different philosophies than myself, I have no problem with people feeling the need to bring it up whenever they see fit. But good lord, if you've got something to say, then just fucking say it! And if you've got a disagreement, then good lord, respect the other person's opinion and experience! Rolling your eyes at the person you are trying to make amends with doesn't help your cause, no matter how many times you say, "but what I said was...."

Sloppy Zhang , I understand. Also I do feel(imo) that you were singled out from the start of this thread. I have not been on TTB as long as most(all) that participated in this thread , so as far as past history and tendency IDK.

The authoritarian attitude was also a bit of a turn off for me . I tried to look past that as 5ET did say there were problems developed from becoming friends with students.

Maybe this is his way to deal with that issue?

I do also feel that the generation you are in was put on the defensive from the start.

It is puzzling to me. At this point I am just trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I am staying nuetral and just suggesting that both sides take another look at the consequences(unintended).

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well obviously insights and observations from teachers are important, they're half the equation in the learning process!

 

I just feel that 5ET came out of the gate with a lot of judgments and assumptions. Sure, they stemmed from his personal experiences, but he drastically extrapolated them and came up with a situation that "must" be correct, simply because it conformed to everything he "knew" to be true (about life, about how young people think, about the internet, etc etc)

 

As a young person, I tried to examine and shed light on each of his assumptions and points he was trying to make about younger generations- which to someone else might look like "making excuses", which indeed would make me seem "defensive", then come the old, "oh hey man, no need to be so defensive, we're just talking! Geeze, you internet generation kids think the world is all about you, don't you?" not very constructive.

 

I dunno, it's hard to have a straight discussion when everyone is asking loaded questions and making loaded statements. It'd be a great load off everybody's backs if we could just say, "hey, this is my experience", and wait 'till we get more views than just our own before coming to a definitive conclusion.

[-O-]

Sloppy Zhang , I understand. Also I do feel(imo) that you were singled out from the start of this thread. I have not been on TTB as long as most(all) that participated in this thread , so as far as past history and tendency IDK.

The authoritarian attitude was also a bit of a turn off for me . I tried to look past that as 5ET did say there were problems developed from becoming friends with students.

Maybe this is his way to deal with that issue?

I do also feel that the generation you are in was put on the defensive from the start.

It is puzzling to me. At this point I am just trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I am staying nuetral and just suggesting that both sides take another look at the consequences(unintended).

 

 

I think it is worth noting too that the teachers here, are here to facilitate students as well as other more professional pursuits ; not here as individuals to just discuss and banter back and forth.

 

I know when I was in that position there is an assumed authority and for effeciencies sake you don't want to be bogged down with a ton of questions. Just give the answer and move on.

 

I think when they bump into folks that are not looking for professional advice or may not be interested in thier particular authority, ...who don't just take an answer on their authority, it can become frustrating and I guess if you are a bit sensitive that would become defensiveness...

 

I try to give them that latitude. It becomes a different game when that "professional advice" wanders out of their area of expertise.. say into assessment of the person or assumptions as to what a persons true intentions are etc. (esspecially if that proclaimation is assumed to be from spiritual awareness or some other nonsense). The ones here not as their students can find that a bit over the top and react defensively too.

 

I think over time I would have knee jerk reactions and get defensive if I was here with as an expert and a bunch of folks didn't accept that...

 

What I find obvious is the defensiveness or assumption that certain people are always there just to attack etc. or are always reacting from a certain agenda.

 

I remember once posting a question to a teacher. He had made a statement which I thought was really insightful... the reaction was really hostile - that I was trolling him out to discredit him. It was just the opposite...

 

I think if anyone (teacher of not) is operating from that mindset, then they need to take a break. No matter how many words we've read from other people- we do not know who they are. Our assumptions on their intentions or agendas reveal as much to us, if not more, about who we are than who they are.

 

Its at a point now where I can't post at all without it being assumed that I'm attacking "teachers"... but I have picked up those battles in the past, and I don't take a person's authority on title alone (behaviour is important) so I guess it is not unreasonable to expect people to react that way... all the more reason for -o- to fade way.

 

I think the best is just let them say their piece and move on - the rest of us bantering types seem to get along just fine. And it is from that ilk that I find the best insight aswell.

Edited March 8, 2011 by -O-

[lazy cloud]

I think it is worth noting too that the teachers here, are here to facilitate students as well as other more professional pursuits ; not here as individuals to just discuss and banter back and forth.

 

I know when I was in that position there is an assumed authority and for effeciencies sake you don't want to be bogged down with a ton of questions. Just give the answer and move on.

 

I think when they bump into folks that are not looking for professional advice or may not be interested in thier particular authority, ...who don't just take an answer on their authority, it can become frustrating and I guess if you are a bit sensitive that would become defensiveness...

 

I try to give them that latitude. It becomes a different game when that "professional advice" wanders out of their area of expertise.. say into assessment of the person or assumptions as to what a persons true intentions are etc. (esspecially if that proclaimation is assumed to be from spiritual awareness or some other nonsense). The ones here not as their students can find that a bit over the top and react defensively too.

 

I think over time I would have knee jerk reactions and get defensive if I was here with as an expert and a bunch of folks didn't accept that...

 

What I find obvious is the defensiveness or assumption that certain people are always there just to attack etc. or are always reacting from a certain agenda.

 

I remember once posting a question to a teacher. He had made a statement which I thought was really insightful... the reaction was really hostile - that I was trolling him out to discredit him. It was just the opposite...

 

I think if anyone (teacher of not) is operating from that mindset, then they need to take a break. No matter how many words we've read from other people- we do not know who they are. Our assumptions on their intentions or agendas reveal as much to us, if not more, about who we are than who they are.

 

Its at a point now where I can't post at all without it being assumed that I'm attacking "teachers"... but I have picked up those battles in the past, and I don't take a person's authority on title alone (behaviour is important) so I guess it is not unreasonable to expect people to react that way... all the more reason for -o- to fade way.

 

I think the best is just let them say their piece and move on - the rest of us bantering types seem to get along just fine. And it is from that ilk that I find the best insight aswell.

OK, -O-, I cannot disagree with any part of your post. I respect your experience and insight. You are thinking of leaving this site ? 5ET has also suggested he may leave the sight. That is what I am trying to point out here when i said unintended consequences. IMO it would be better if everyone stayed on board and learned from experience. I have some experience and some knowledge. I am certainly no expert.

I am here to share and to learn. There is a thread by Kate where it talks about how cool TTB is. I look at it as a useful resource and can see it being a positive benefit.

[-O-]

OK, -O-, I cannot disagree with any part of your post. I respect your experience and insight. You are thinking of leaving this site ? 5ET has also suggested he may leave the sight. That is what I am trying to point out here when i said unintended consequences. IMO it would be better if everyone stayed on board and learned from experience. I have some experience and some knowledge. I am certainly no expert.

I am here to share and to learn. There is a thread by Kate where it talks about how cool TTB is. I look at it as a useful resource and can see it being a positive benefit.

 

 

Not leaving just letting the avatar and the purpose behind it go away - been slowly getting around to it for the last week or so, but things like work keep getting in the way - while at the same time can't help but jump into the discussions.

[Guest allan]

Hi Allan.

 

 

 

The passages in the Tao Te Ching have been interpreted in many ways. For example, in the various translations I have read for chapter 16, it is translated as returning to source or the root and such, but not translated as returning to destiny, but no doubt there are many interpretations out there. If you don't mind me asking, which specific character in chapter 16 are you interpreting as destiny, or which translation are you basing this on? I do think many people might agree that what is written in the Tao Te Ching is open to various interpretations, even amongst Taoist Scholars and Taoist practitioners.

 

Ming = Life / Fate / Destiny

 

If we reread Chapter 16 carefully, there are various stages of Return. Returning to destiny is one of them.

 

Daoist scholars may not have the necessary practice, while many Daoist cultivators prefer practice to deeper studies to further their knowledge; therefore it proves difficult for most, except for the earnest and sincere, to understand the ancient classics.

[Stigweard]

Ming = Life / Fate / Destiny

 

If we reread Chapter 16 carefully, there are various stages of Return. Returning to destiny is one of them.

 

Daoist scholars may not have the necessary practice, while many Daoist cultivators prefer practice to deeper studies to further their knowledge; therefore it proves difficult for most, except for the earnest and sincere, to understand the ancient classics.

Yes 命, Ming, is an interesting character. Interesting in that most translations do use "root" as it's English rendition.

 

The character gives us the image of an authoritative mouth giving a command. If I was a Christian I would call it the "Will of God", as a Taoist I would more call it the laws of nature or the power of life. So with the connotations of an authoritative command I can understand the rendition of "destiny" or fate. But I do think that this is implying more of a "divine will".

[Guest allan]

[Stigweard]

[Guest allan]

Thanks Allan, I appreciate the distinction you have made. How then do you think translators have gone from "mandate" to "root" in their renditions?

 

 

Earlier, I have mentioned some reasons. You could always ask them for their reasons for their translation, if you wish.

 

However, some translators did differentiate between root (Gen) and destiny (Ming) in their translation, in case members did not notice.

[2netis]