Internet Generation and Tao Training

[-O-]

O

You were indulged in sports instead of taught a work ethic. Hopefully the sports DID instill some really good things for you. But this is another example of what happens to a lot of kids - their parents allow that indulgence with no balance, usually football in this country.

 

Point taken.... (edited - actually no, I was taught a work ethic - it was my choice not to listen... so, no blaming the parents - thats a cheap way out which is ussually spoated by people with out kids who are irritated by other peoples kids)

 

 

Are you ever asking of someone who is lazy is interested in Tao Training?

...The world is crazy.

 

Q

 

 

So here a a question to ponder.

 

Is there no hope for the lazy?

 

If taosit training can be helpful for emotional balance, physical balance - can aid in healing - then perhaps labelling a person "lazy" (and thus maybe a little less worthy then the effortfull) is a form of prejudice if the ailment which is seeking balance is "laziness".

 

Are we being bigots?

Edited March 3, 2011 by -O-

[Sloppy Zhang]

Either you are a genius

 

I am quite the intelligent person

 

ALL the time that you post here

 

Most of my work is done on the computer. I can keep multiple windows open. Work, post, work, post. Multitask your way to success

[Ya Mu]

Point taken.... (edited - actually no, I was taught a work ethic - it was my choice not to listen... so, no blaming the parents - thats a cheap way out which is ussually spoated by people with out kids who are irritated by other peoples kids)

 

 

 

 

 

So here a a question to ponder.

 

Is there no hope for the lazy?

 

If taosit training can be helpful for emotional balance, physical balance - can aid in healing - then perhaps labelling a person "lazy" (and thus maybe a little less worthy then the effortfull) is a form of prejudice if the ailment which is seeking balance is "laziness".

 

Are we being bigots?

". ..I was taught a work ethic - it was my choice not to listen... so, no blaming the parents - thats a cheap way out which is ussually spoated by people with out kids who are irritated by other peoples kids)..."

 

Not sure why you are hung up on a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was referring to.

 

I don't know where you live but here in the USA this is an OBVIOUS thing. Obvious to ANY thinking person. Perhaps it is not so where you live. Parents are our guides in teaching a work ethic and it has been sadly displaced over the last 20-30 or so years.

 

Look at kids who were raised on a farm that had to work each day before they went to university and look at those that "hung out" at the mall, played video games, texted for hours each day and were never asked to be responsible for themselves then went to university. Which of this group do you think makes the better worker? Easy to choose. The others NEVER LEARNED HOW.

 

Rather not talk personally, but just repeating back what you have said and knowing nothing else about your background (so perhaps you were later taught), it appears to me that you were NOT taught a work ethic - you were indulged in sports activities versus teaching you how to pay your own way. You were not working at anything other than your sports. You never learned to actually make your own money and pay your own bills; this was something you had to do later.

 

Lazy is lazy - there is no psycho-babble description of "labeling" it or any type of prejudice. It is a thing that is or is not.

Lazy

"averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent"

 

As far as Taoist practices, people who are too lazy to find or seek the training will never have it.

Gongfu = time&effort (opposite of above lazy definition)

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ya Mu

[-O-]

". ..I was taught a work ethic - it was my choice not to listen... so, no blaming the parents - thats a cheap way out which is ussually spoated by people with out kids who are irritated by other peoples kids)..."

 

Not sure why you are hung up on a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I was referring to.

 

Because the following is a sweeping statement, not about a cultural or social observation, but specifically about something I shared about my life, of which I have all the facts and relevant information and you have none.... and no, I'm not responding on a personal level by stating this...

 

Simply put, you have taken an authoritative stance on something which you have no authority, namely my life and how my parents raised me.

O

You were indulged in sports instead of taught a work ethic. Hopefully the sports DID instill some really good things for you. But this is another example of what happens to a lot of kids - their parents allow that indulgence with no balance, usually football in this country.

 

 

 

I don't know where you live but here in the USA this is an OBVIOUS thing. Obvious to ANY thinking person. Perhaps it is not so where you live. Parents are our guides in teaching a work ethic and it has been sadly displaced over the last 20-30 or so years.

 

Look at kids who were raised on a farm that had to work each day before they went to university and look at those that "hung out" at the mall, played video games, texted for hours each day and were never asked to be responsible for themselves then went to university. Which of this group do you think makes the better worker? Easy to choose. The others NEVER LEARNED HOW.

 

Not to be rude - but just stating that your point is obvious (no shouting please - lets stay civil) is, well, lazy thinking. There have been many studies into the nature versus nurture thing, no I'm not going to cite them, but I will say, and take this opportunity to expand on the idea that you stance is typical for people without kids. I will try to explain why....

 

Say my daughter... she has a perpensity to talk over people and interupt. No matter how much I have coached her, reminded her, reprimanded her, even changing the way my wife and I communitcate to set a better example she has this one very rude habit. This has been going on for almost 2 years. Now matter what I am doing to educate and guide her it is a lesson she is not picking up on....

 

On the other hand, one day she asked for something from her grandmother in an abrupt manner and didn't say please. When they were done their interaction I explained to her there was a proper way to ask for something and we practices the proper tone and practice saying please. Even now I very very seldom ever have to correct that behaviour. Yes got it pretty much the first time around.

 

I didn't believe myself until I was in the position. They get it, when they get and all you can do is be sure to be providing an example persistantly for them so when those synapsis come together, when they are ready, the lesson will be at hand. In in some case they ust might never get it. They may not be wired to make those connections.

 

There are so many factors that go into the growth of a human, at any age, that it is simply naive and lazy to raise a hand (or write a few words in caps) saying it is the parents' fault, and stating that is obvious knowledge.

 

In light of that, what I will not do at this point is turn to you and say "go have a kid and come back to me in ten years" like others have done on this thread. More, IMO, above the neck laziness.

 

Also - after looking at a day in the life of adolecent -o-, would you really say there is an "averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion"?

 

So is there now a distinction between work ethic and lazyness that needs to be drawn? (if there is I'm okay with that)

 

And to put a context to why I was working with my dad and at the bakery.... well that was to help with the mortgage and allowed me to save for a car (as we were quite isolated and walking to next town for school, because I went to a different school district to get University entrance courses, in -25C winters in Canada is not reccomended)

 

Rather not talk personally, but just repeating back what you have said and knowing nothing else about your background (so perhaps you were later taught), it appears to me that you were NOT taught a work ethic - you were indulged in sports activities versus teaching you how to pay your own way. You were not working at anything other than your sports. You never learned to actually make your own money and pay your own bills; this was something you had to do later.

 

Lazy is lazy - there is no psycho-babble description of "labeling" it or any type of prejudice. It is a thing that is or is not.

Lazy

"averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent"

 

As far as Taoist practices, people who are too lazy to find or seek the training will never have it.

Gongfu = time&effort (opposite of above lazy definition)

 

Lazy, is lazy, and can be applied to thinking as well.

 

There is a study going on right now regarding serotonin receptors and "lazy children" accept they don't use the word lazy they use the word "output failure".

 

Regardless of the child's knowledge, and capability their "output" whether that be checking their spelling or double checking their math solution, the "output failed" consistently at key points in the process. No matter how often they would run the exercise the output failure was there. They even noticed that as the kids were tested more and more, they did spend extra time on the process steps where they were "failing" but with no change in the output.

 

It was as if the brain simple stopped being invested in the task regardless of the person conscious intention to be engaged in it.... This was not limited to intelectual tasks. Repetition and constant correction had very little affect on the outcome (like 2% over the few months of the study)....now I'm not saying every lazy kid is like this, nor am I saying that it is never the environment they grew up in which leads to their behaviour....

 

(if I can get my hands on the study from my buddy I will try to post more)

 

So it came to me as an interesting thought that perhaps there could be more going on with the "lazy" then what appears. And to add to that I guess the only think holding us back from discovering it is, well, laziness in our thinking.

 

(I actually expected a response more along the lines like "how can you help someone who won't help themself" - I am surprised at your response. IMO it re-enforces the point that this might be a real prejudice in the world).

 

Edited March 3, 2011 by -O-

[Stigweard]

I just want to express some gratitude for the discussion so far. I have benefited from hearing people's points of view.

 

[Kali Yuga]

Some heated discussion here, I will stay out of that. I would just like to comment.

 

 

In life things are not just a slide on a scale. It is not necessarily all about hard work, or about laziness, because it is also about skillful means.

 

Intelligence is what separates man from animal, which is why we can get so much done with so little.

 

However, what makes intelligence matter is something I call cunning.

 

Cunning is the artful, skillful application of that intelligence to achieve one's means. If you have no cunning, then obviously you are not getting the things and places in life that you desire. Cunning is like that critical strike, the effortless movement that produces all results. Cunning almost always beats hard work results wise. But not all the time. However, hard work develops character that cunning does not.

 

 

With hard work comes discipline, however results with this way of doing things will pay off only in the long term. Look at buff people in the gym. They didn't get it all in just a week.

 

With cunning comes speedy results, however the downfall of cunning is that those who possess it tend to be rather lazy because they don't need to work very hard to get what they want.

 

The virtuous man is possessed of both of these qualities and not just one. He works both hard and smart.

 

If one is cunning, he need not necessarily work very hard. Because with cunning comes the ability to make that clean killing strike that gets you what you want, when you want it. If you have no cunning then you have to work hard. It's obviously something very nice to have, but there are some things that can't be pushed in life.

 

Nobody becomes an Arnold Schwarzenegger or a Qigong Master in a day.

 

 

The greatest lessons are usually taught in the simplest of stories. Ever remember the Tortoise and the Hare?

 

Obviously, the tortoise won because the rabbit was lazy. But in real life you want beneficial characteristics of both of these. You want to work hard, but you also want to be able to get things done quickly, with minimum effort. In this way, you can do it all and have it all in life: move mountains, make money, but still have all the time you want for spending time with the kids, and making love to your wife. You know, the finer things of life.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Kali Yuga

[Ya Mu]

Because the following is a sweeping statement, not about a cultural or social observation, but specifically about something I shared about my life, of which I have all the facts and relevant information and you have none.... and no, I'm not responding on a personal level by stating this...

 

Simply put, you have taken an authoritative stance on something which you have no authority, namely my life and how my parents raised me.

 

 

 

 

 

Not to be rude - but just stating that your point is obvious (no shouting please - lets stay civil) is, well, lazy thinking. There have been many studies into the nature versus nurture thing, no I'm not going to cite them, but I will say, and take this opportunity to expand on the idea that you stance is typical for people without kids. I will try to explain why....

 

Say my daughter... she has a perpensity to talk over people and interupt. No matter how much I have coached her, reminded her, reprimanded her, even changing the way my wife and I communitcate to set a better example she has this one very rude habit. This has been going on for almost 2 years. Now matter what I am doing to educate and guide her it is a lesson she is not picking up on....

 

On the other hand, one day she asked for something from her grandmother in an abrupt manner and didn't say please. When they were done their interaction I explained to her there was a proper way to ask for something and we practices the proper tone and practice saying please. Even now I very very seldom ever have to correct that behaviour. Yes got it pretty much the first time around.

 

I didn't believe myself until I was in the position. They get it, when they get and all you can do is be sure to be providing an example persistantly for them so when those synapsis come together, when they are ready, the lesson will be at hand. In in some case they ust might never get it. They may not be wired to make those connections.

 

There are so many factors that go into the growth of a human, at any age, that it is simply naive and lazy to raise a hand (or write a few words in caps) saying it is the parents' fault, and stating that is obvious knowledge.

 

In light of that, what I will not do at this point is turn to you and say "go have a kid and come back to me in ten years" like others have done on this thread. More, IMO, above the neck laziness.

 

Also - after looking at a day in the life of adolecent -o-, would you really say there is an "averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion"?

 

So is there now a distinction between work ethic and lazyness that needs to be drawn? (if there is I'm okay with that)

 

And to put a context to why I was working with my dad and at the bakery.... well that was to help with the mortgage and allowed me to save for a car (as we were quite isolated and walking to next town for school, because I went to a different school district to get University entrance courses, in -25C winters in Canada is not reccomended)

 

 

 

Lazy, is lazy, and can be applied to thinking as well.

 

There is a study going on right now regarding serotonin receptors and "lazy children" accept they don't use the word lazy they use the word "output failure".

 

Regardless of the child's knowledge, and capability their "output" whether that be checking their spelling or double checking their math solution, the "output failed" consistently at key points in the process. No matter how often they would run the exercise the output failure was there. They even noticed that as the kids were tested more and more, they did spend extra time on the process steps where they were "failing" but with no change in the output.

 

It was as if the brain simple stopped being invested in the task regardless of the person conscious intention to be engaged in it.... This was not limited to intelectual tasks. Repetition and constant correction had very little affect on the outcome (like 2% over the few months of the study)....now I'm not saying every lazy kid is like this, nor am I saying that it is never the environment they grew up in which leads to their behaviour....

 

(if I can get my hands on the study from my buddy I will try to post more)

 

So it came to me as an interesting thought that perhaps there could be more going on with the "lazy" then what appears. And to add to that I guess the only think holding us back from discovering it is, well, laziness in our thinking.

 

(I actually expected a response more along the lines like "how can you help someone who won't help themself" - I am surprised at your response. IMO it re-enforces the point that this might be a real prejudice in the world).

 

I did say I didn't know anything about you or how you were brought up. I only repeated what you said, and obviously hit a nerve. But I didn't say those things, you did. My statement was based only on what you said. Had you added the other about actually working and not indulging only in sports there would have been a different conclusion.

So let us drop any personal references, like you started with the - must hate kids thing - as you don't know anything about me either.

 

Lets talks hypothetical. I really don't think you see my point - at all - as you keep ignoring what I am actually saying and then refer to other things.

 

Let us use an example that I see in my hometown. Johnny was a pretty good boy but his all consuming compassion was football. His father thought about making Johnny work this summer, and last summer, but Johnny wanted to play football with his friends. So he was allowed to. Johnny was offered an after school job but his grades stated deteriorating due to coming home late everyday from football practice. But his mother and father kept thinking they would improve. So any time after football was spent trying to bring his grades up. Yes, no job for Johnny.

Johnny eventually graduated from high school. It turned out that he was only mediocre in football so it held no future. He got a job cutting up meat at the local processing plant but decided what he was doing was beneath his dignity and quit. So now he hangs out at his trailer and his friends, who have turned to meth, drop by. Pretty soon Johny was hooked on the meth and started to make it and sell it. He just got busted and received prison time. All this because HE NEVER LEARNED a work ethic. (and I will use emphasis caps anytime I wish, thank you)

This is a true story, a neighbor, the name has been changed.

 

And I could give about 100000 examples but you seem stuck about the parent's fault thing. Parents DO have a choice, whether you or anyone else who is a parent wishes to believe so or not, about instilling a work ethic into their children. Yes, sometimes what we teach our children doesn't get into their heads until later, but I ask you where else would the child learn a work ethic if not from their parents? I repeat what I said earlier, to me it is obvious this is happening in our country and, in a large part, is responsible for the downfall of America. No work ethic. I see it everyday and find it hard to believe that others don't. I guess it depends on where one lives and perhaps on one's socio-economic status. Come visit our local wallyworld, take a few strolls around, and talk to some people, then draw your conclusions. Come during the daytime when most people are working (or at least when most people in other places are working). Not judgmental, just plainspoken fact.

 

The post below actually says a lot. Although I also, as you, don't agree with the "liberal reference" as it seems to be a trend that applies to all. You agreed with this and seemed to accept that it is a parent's responsibility, but you appear to think that instilling a work ethic is not part of the same said responsibility. This is where we disagree. And yes, a parent can only make the attempt. My point is that far too many don't.

 

And how does all this apply to the thread topic? If a person has no work ethic how are they going to learn Taoist energy arts? If a person is lazy how are they going to learn something that has as a very definition "time & effort"? They won't.

 

Lol, but the funny thing is that these attitudes were all created by the liberal Baby Boomers themselves!

 

They angrily rebelled against their own parents, living responsibly within your means and worked tirelessly to dismantle the "oppresssive Patriarchy/establishment."

 

Hey, if Johnny is acting up and doing poorly in school...then we should make school easier for him to boost his self-esteem! Not discipline him and make him try harder!

 

But now that they have become the "Patriarchy/establishment," they are upset that the young'uns are treating them even worse then they had treated their own parentals...lol. But like father, like son..

 

 

Well maybe eventually, teachers will even have to make housecalls and pay students to teach them???

[-O-]

I did say I didn't know anything about you or how you were brought up. I only repeated what you said, and obviously hit a nerve.

 

But I didn't say those things, you did.

 

Lets talks hypothetical. I really don't think you see my point - at all - as you keep ignoring what I am actually saying and then refer to other things.

 

 

Let us use an example that I see in my hometown. Johnny was a pretty good boy but his all consuming compassion was football. His father thought about making Johnny work this summer, and last summer, but Johnny wanted to play football with his friends. So he was allowed to. Johnny was offered an after school job but his grades stated deteriorating due to coming home late everyday from football practice. But his mother and father kept thinking they would improve. So any time after football was spent trying to bring his grades up. Yes, no job for Johnny.

Johnny eventually graduated from high school. It turned out that he was only mediocre in football so it held no future. He got a job cutting up meat at the local processing plant but decided what he was doing was beneath his dignity and quit. So now he hangs out at his trailer and his friends, who have turned to meth, drop by. Pretty soon Johny was hooked on the meth and started to make it and sell it. He just got busted and received prison time. All this because HE NEVER LEARNED a work ethic. (and I will use emphasis caps anytime I wish, thank you)

This is a true story, a neighbor, the name has been changed.

 

And I could give about 100000 examples but you seem stuck about the parent's fault thing. Parents DO have a choice, whether you or anyone else who is a parent wishes to believe so or not, about instilling a work ethic into their children. Yes, sometimes what we teach our children doesn't get into their heads until later, but I ask you where else would the child learn a work ethic if not from their parents? I repeat what I said earlier, to me it is obvious this is happening in our country and, in a large part, is responsible for the downfall of America. No work ethic. I see it everyday and find it hard to believe that others don't. I guess it depends on where one lives and perhaps on one's socio-economic status. Come visit our local wallyworld, take a few strolls around, and talk to some people, then draw your conclusions. Come during the daytime when most people are working (or at least when most people in other places are working). Not judgmental, just plainspoken fact.

 

The post below actually says a lot. Although I also, as you, don't agree with the "liberal reference" as it seems to be a trend that applies to all. You agreed with this and seemed to accept that it is a parent's responsibility, but you appear to think that instilling a work ethic is not part of the same said responsibility. This is where we disagree. And yes, a parent can only make the attempt. My point is that far too many don't.

 

And how does all this apply to the thread topic? If a person has no work ethic how are they going to learn Taoist energy arts? If a person is lazy how are they going to learn something that has as a very definition "time & effort"? They won't.

 

 

 

Dude, you didn't hit a nerve... work ethic not only comes from th parents. Parents hard work can be undone by influences like, school systems, friends, parents of friends.... and it can also be re-enforced by thee things.... parents (and schools and etc etc) do not have any control over the impact and comclusions children will draw from their own life experience....

 

Laziness is not bad work ethic - it ia a part of it. There are other important things which go into a good work ethic, pride in the job done well and done properly like kali mentioned it takes skill, right effort... an lots of other things. So I see that it is the distinction of work ethic versus laziness which is important to you.

 

I didn't read Vortex's post as pointing a finger at the parents but at a change in values which yes parents are a part of, but i found his reference wider than that which would encase these other influence as well....

 

So I can see that you believe the lazy cannot be taught. (I'm fine with that too and do see that reasoning)

 

(side note big guys - no nerves where hit except for the one that giggles when I come across flawed logic. I respond to the words written - not man writting them. Doing that levels the field and allows the lowly to call the high on their crap etc... so when reading my post try it with a cold monotone and perhaps a cheek full of tongue - I don't get upset at these things easliy and get offended even less - especially here)

Edited March 3, 2011 by -O-

[Ya Mu]

Dude, you didn't hit a nerve... work ethic not only comes from th parents. Parents hard work can be undone by influences like, school systems, friends, parents of friends.... and it can also be re-enforced by thee things.... parents (and schools and etc etc) do not have any control over the impact and comclusions children will draw from their own life experience....

 

Laziness is not bad work ethic - it ia a part of it. There are other important things which go into a good work ethic, pride in the job done well and done properly like kali mentioned it takes skill, right effort... an lots of other things. So I see that it is the distinction of work ethic versus laziness which is important to you.

 

I didn't read Vortex's post as pointing a finger at the parents but at a change in values which yes parents are a part of, but i found his reference wider than that which would encase these other influence as well....

 

So I can see that you believe the lazy cannot be taught. (I'm fine with that too and do see that reasoning)

 

(side note big guys - no nerves where hit except for the one that giggles when I come across flawed logic. I respond to the words written - not man writting them. Doing that levels the field and allows the lowly to call the high on their crap etc... so when reading my post try it with a cold monotone and perhaps a cheek full of tongue - I don't get upset at these things easliy and get offended even less - especially here)

Except for your last paragraph of condescending attitude where you lay false premise (and again get off the subject - wonder why you feel the need) I actually agree with you. It doesn't change the parents responsibility to instill the work ethic, that, obvious to me, and I would have thought obvious to others, is far too often ignored in the later generations. It was once considered very important.

 

So as it stands your words suggest you do not feel it is the parents responsibility to instill a work ethic in their children.

Unfortunately most parents of the later generations appear to feel the same way. Which was my main point to begin with.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ya Mu

[-O-]

That aside... question which I think will tie all of these terirary things back to the inital post....

 

Kali mentions the importance of right effort. It's not only enough to put the effort in but also the form it take (yes?).

 

So if this newer generation takes the time online to say compile a list of schools and reviews, maybe even educate themselves a bit with basic premises to ask informed questions. Then at that point emails or calls these teachers to "interview" them - is this the incorrect type of effort? (It hink Sloppy's stance was about the form versus the effort)

 

 

And just to quell any thoughts that I'm trying to be antagonistic, I'll add this possible answer...

 

I read years ago a Karma Kagyu quote re: teachers and students which mentioned something along the lines that a student, knowing nothing, doesn't have the knowledge, karma or expereince enough to know if a teacher is credible or good etc, so such efforts are pointless.

 

Is the form the effort of the internet generation is taking simple not the right one? If so I'd love to hear why.

 

 

[Ya Mu]

That aside... question which I think will tie all of these terirary things back to the inital post....

 

Kali mentions the importance of right effort. It's not only enough to put the effort in but also the form it take (yes?).

 

So if this newer generation takes the time online to say compile a list of schools and reviews, maybe even educate themselves a bit with basic premises to ask informed questions. Then at that point emails or calls these teachers to "interview" them - is this the incorrect type of effort? (It hink Sloppy's stance was about the form versus the effort)

 

 

And just to quell any thoughts that I'm trying to be antagonistic, I'll add this possible answer...

 

I read years ago a Karma Kagyu quote re: teachers and students which mentioned something along the lines that a student, knowing nothing, doesn't have the knowledge, karma or expereince enough to know if a teacher is credible or good etc, so such efforts are pointless.

 

Is the form the effort of the internet generation is taking simple not the right one? If so I'd love to hear why.

I think you bring up a valid and possibly important question. And appreciate that you have offered almost two different views.

I think there is nothing inherently wrong in doing the research. I believe that all of us who have the tools at our disposal have been doing that and will continue to do so. But I also think a valid point was made with the last statement. I believe it is very difficult for a student who has no innate understanding to actually make a proper judgement of anything concerning the internal energy arts, or at least it is only an intellectual judgement which can be valid or invalid.

[-O-]

So what are they suppose do? What would be the right effort?

 

Somethings that come to mind - leave out mystical solutions like "when your ready the teacher will appear etc."

 

Is right effort simply to show up and find out for themselves?

 

If so, they are still students with out the faculty to decide, how are they to know it is the right stuff they are involved in...

 

It is sticky because... If it is a system of substance then it would take some time before the student was ready to see it. BUT If it is a system of bollox then no length of training or right effort would afford the faculty to know if it was any good...

 

To me, relying on the reviews and results of people already studying it doesn't add up because those people would also note have faculty to know either (and would also then carry a biase).... And in some cases a living lineage to back the teachers credibility is not an indication if that teacher is a wise choice (I say this as one who was involved in a living lineage, with a long history, which it's senior members act quite questionably at times), and also know of people who simply lie about it... I've also seen teacher get really offended when their credentials are looked into by potential students (which I find odd if those credentials are for real - unless of course there is a traditional or cultural offense that I'm not aware of).

 

How is someone with no expereince (or little experience) able to make an adult decision about who and what to study?

 

 

So regarding the young'n which called 5ET - what advice could we give them?

 

 

[Ya Mu]

So what are they suppose do? What would be the right effort?

 

Somethings that come to mind - leave out mystical solutions like "when your ready the teacher will appear etc."

 

Is right effort simply to show up and find out for themselves?

 

If so, they are still students with out the faculty to decide, how are they to know it is the right stuff they are involved in...

 

It is sticky because... If it is a system of substance then it would take some time before the student was ready to see it. BUT If it is a system of bollox then no length of training or right effort would afford the faculty to know if it was any good...

 

To me, relying on the reviews and results of people already studying it doesn't add up because those people would also note have faculty to know either (and would also then carry a biase).... And in some cases a living lineage to back the teachers credibility is not an indication if that teacher is a wise choice (I say this as one who was involved in a living lineage, with a long history, which it's senior members act quite questionably at times), and also know of people who simply lie about it... I've also seen teacher get really offended when their credentials are looked into by potential students (which I find odd if those credentials are for real - unless of course there is a traditional or cultural offense that I'm not aware of).

 

How is someone with no expereince (or little experience) able to make an adult decision about who and what to study?

 

 

So regarding the young'n which called 5ET - what advice could we give them?

I don't know that there is any one way or choice in making such a decision. Sometimes we just have to do whether we are sure or not. After the research, which may or may not give any valid information,

if we can get our minds still and make the choice from our center - our true-heart, it should be a learning choice, whether it is the "right" path for us at the time or not. I would like to say any choice is a good one but unfortunately for many people this has not proven true. In other words, does it feel right? No? perhaps back off. Yes? What are you waiting for. Of course this method does require practice and we get back to a circle. So in the end, we simply have to make a choice. If there is nothing in the first few days that resonates, perhaps it is not the best choice - then move on.

 

For what I teach it is usually a feeling of "coming home" for most, and they achieve this in the first two days. We have people projecting qi with a 70% to 100% result in 3 days, so there is no "Is this valid?" At a recent workshop a young woman said "I just knew I was supposed to be here." So for her, there was no drama associated with the "finding", she just acted on faith and it proved to be a powerful experience for her.

I guess I really have no advice other than the old "seek and ye shall find". May or may not right off be what any particular person is looking for; I do firmly believe that their is a certain amount of power for us in the effort itself.

[-O-]

It's really no different than any other decision we make iguess.

 

No amount of fore thought removes all the risk involved.

[de_paradise]

I agree with 5ET's points that people today look at these energy sytems and enlightenment paths as if they were shopping in the mall at the Gap, and the master as a "sales associate", and themselves as the all important customer. It is the typical relationship pattern that people recognize and fall into, so if the teacher advertises with a website, the rest of the assumptions follow, that the teacher wants to sell a product and ought to be slavishly devoted to the buyer's wants.

 

I dont see this much as a generational thing, as a just following programmed behavior, the way people learn to interact. In Taiwan, teachers are held in much higher esteem, and also qigong or some sort of spiritual guru have instant respect, and not Gap "sales associates"

 

For spiritual systems, I think if a 20 year old happens to discover something like Maoshan spirit fighting, or Yamus stuff, which are so amazing and incredible beyond words, a discovery of a lifetime or lifetimes. Well if that 20 year old sees this with eyes of consumer-like desire, perhaps its as if he never had the karma to see it at all. Because if he undervalues it then he will end up passing it by or quitting not long after.

[Sloppy Zhang]

It is the typical relationship pattern that people recognize and fall into, so if the teacher advertises with a website, the rest of the assumptions follow, that the teacher wants to sell a product and ought to be slavishly devoted to the buyer's wants.

 

Maybe we should examine WHY the view spiritual systems as a product, and the teacher as the sales associate.

 

I have made the point many times before that, in the present, not a lot of teachers do many sorts of demonstrations, no real "proving it". A lot of times, this point has been made with contempt or ridicule. "I am not a circus animal, I should not have to perform for you on demand. Grow up."

 

But look at it historically- all the martial arts that we have today were established through USE. Yang Luchan showed up in Beijing, got up on a platform and said, "I bet nobody can knock me off. I'm a badass. Come get me." And guess what? He was right. Earned the nickname Yang the Invincible. His son didn't ride on coattails- he had to go through the same process, and earned the same name. This is our beloved tai chi!

 

Learning from a master was learning a skill, a way of life, learning a method of self transformation. How do I go from the person I was, to someone like my teacher? People could see, and feel, tangible realities about what they wanted to learn. There was absolutely no question in the students' minds about a teacher's role as a teacher. In some places and parts of history, if a martial artist defeated you, you'd want to become their student- they obviously have something you don't (if they let you live, anyway!).

 

Energy arts, meditation, cooking, art, business- people want to learn from the people who are successful and who have demonstrated some practical skill.

 

What do most modern day teachers do? "I don't give demonstrations because people don't believe me." "If you really believed, you wouldn't need to ask." "How dare you disrespect me?" "Grow up, and do some work yourself before you demand anything of others."

 

You don't see their art. Their art is behind closed doors. If you'll allow this, you could say it's still in the box. Sitting on a shelf. You've got to complete all the right payments and give all the respects before you even get to look inside the box, let alone take anything out.

 

Compare this with ANYTHING else- education, other sports, hobbies, whatever. You've got to have some kind of credentials- recognition from an institution of known and acknowledged standards, or enough experience in the field to have produced results.

 

I hate to start talking about the good ol' days, but yeah. We don't have public lei tai matches or civil wars that martial artists can go fight in to prove their mettle. But it's not like we don't have anything either. The only able bodies are not those of already believing, loyal students.

 

Now I'm not saying that anyone "has" to do something or else they aren't legitimate. I'm not saying that the sole standard for success or efficacy of a system or person is the amount of public support. I'm just saying, you know, it's all a two way street. A lot of people seem to be giving the student a hard time, and it's like.... well, I hear a lot of people talking about getting their material "out there", to elevate the level of humanity, and things like that and.... well, I dunno, public demonstrations would do a lot. We live in an era where people tend to "think", and "rationalize", so why not play to that? Why not play to what the current trends are?

 

But everyone can, and does, and will continue to do, whatever they want one way or the other.

Edited March 4, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[de_paradise]

Good point sloppy. There ought to be some middle ground where both are satisfied. Several years back, I was all like, wow, if they only showed their powers more often, more people could get hooked onto spiritual systems. Now Im more of the view that this type of baiting often leads to attracting people for the wrong reason, so its better they have some kind of internal motivation and less external proof, and that way the power seekers will sort themselves out of the running.

 

Nevertheless, I still think this kind of demanding customer attitude would persist. Perhaps the prospective student would value it more, but would still want their order filled within a few days or be posting negative things on the Tao Bums that xyz teacher is questionable.

[markern]

Maybe we should examine WHY the view spiritual systems as a product, and the teacher as the sales associate.

 

I have made the point many times before that, in the present, not a lot of teachers do many sorts of demonstrations, no real "proving it". A lot of times, this point has been made with contempt or ridicule. "I am not a circus animal, I should not have to perform for you on demand. Grow up."

 

But look at it historically- all the martial arts that we have today were established through USE. Yang Luchan showed up in Beijing, got up on a platform and said, "I bet nobody can knock me off. I'm a badass. Come get me." And guess what? He was right. Earned the nickname Yang the Invincible. His son didn't ride on coattails- he had to go through the same process, and earned the same name. This is our beloved tai chi!

 

Learning from a master was learning a skill, a way of life, learning a method of self transformation. How do I go from the person I was, to someone like my teacher? People could see, and feel, tangible realities about what they wanted to learn. There was absolutely no question in the students' minds about a teacher's role as a teacher. In some places and parts of history, if a martial artist defeated you, you'd want to become their student- they obviously have something you don't (if they let you live, anyway!).

 

Energy arts, meditation, cooking, art, business- people want to learn from the people who are successful and who have demonstrated some practical skill.

 

What do most modern day teachers do? "I don't give demonstrations because people don't believe me." "If you really believed, you wouldn't need to ask." "How dare you disrespect me?" "Grow up, and do some work yourself before you demand anything of others."

 

You don't see their art. Their art is behind closed doors. If you'll allow this, you could say it's still in the box. Sitting on a shelf. You've got to complete all the right payments and give all the respects before you even get to look inside the box, let alone take anything out.

 

Compare this with ANYTHING else- education, other sports, hobbies, whatever. You've got to have some kind of credentials- recognition from an institution of known and acknowledged standards, or enough experience in the field to have produced results.

 

I hate to start talking about the good ol' days, but yeah. We don't have public lei tai matches or civil wars that martial artists can go fight in to prove their mettle. But it's not like we don't have anything either. The only able bodies are not those of already believing, loyal students.

 

Now I'm not saying that anyone "has" to do something or else they aren't legitimate. I'm not saying that the sole standard for success or efficacy of a system or person is the amount of public support. I'm just saying, you know, it's all a two way street. A lot of people seem to be giving the student a hard time, and it's like.... well, I hear a lot of people talking about getting their material "out there", to elevate the level of humanity, and things like that and.... well, I dunno, public demonstrations would do a lot. We live in an era where people tend to "think", and "rationalize", so why not play to that? Why not play to what the current trends are?

 

But everyone can, and does, and will continue to do, whatever they want one way or the other.

 

Another related problem can be found when an advanced Vipassana student go to a retreat. Because attainments are not suposed to be talked about it is often impossible to get any idea where exactly the teacher is on the path and so if he can teach you how to get to a level beyond where you are at now. This leads to advanced students sometimes spending long time in retreats being thaught by teacher that should be their students in stead. Daniel Ingram writes well on this.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Good point sloppy. There ought to be some middle ground where both are satisfied. Several years back, I was all like, wow, if they only showed their powers more often, more people could get hooked onto spiritual systems. Now Im more of the view that this type of baiting often leads to attracting people for the wrong reason, so its better they have some kind of internal motivation and less external proof, and that way the power seekers will sort themselves out of the running.

 

Nevertheless, I still think this kind of demanding customer attitude would persist. Perhaps the prospective student would value it more, but would still want their order filled within a few days or be posting negative things on the Tao Bums that xyz teacher is questionable.

 

Yeah, I agree about the inner drive thing, and also about the middle ground.

 

I've seen some really dedicated students and really dedicated people who have followed methods that were incomplete, or learned from teachers who could be considered less than reputable. And I dunno, it just makes me sad that these people toil on and are going to run into obstacles, and they are going to be told by teachers they trust that those obstacles are their fault, that it was them manifesting it, and something or another.

 

And I think what would happen if they took that same dedication and put it toward a method which was legitimate and whole- how much progress they'd make, and how much advancement would go on in the world in general.

 

And I question why that situation is happening- and I ask "how does someone distinguish a teacher with the goods and a teacher without them?" They may have phenomenal inner drive, but perhaps they haven't reached the point where they can accurately distinguish their internal feelings as Ya Mu suggested. They want to do SOMETHING, but don't know what. In light of their internal compass being undeveloped, they rely on their mind, their research, who turns up on google, who talks the best game, who seems like they have the goods from the experience they have.

 

And a lot of times it's the fraud who's got the better marketing campaign.

[-O-]

Yeah, I agree about the inner drive thing, and also about the middle ground.

 

I've seen some really dedicated students and really dedicated people who have followed methods that were incomplete, or learned from teachers who could be considered less than reputable. And I dunno, it just makes me sad that these people toil on and are going to run into obstacles, and they are going to be told by teachers they trust that those obstacles are their fault, that it was them manifesting it, and something or another.

 

And I think what would happen if they took that same dedication and put it toward a method which was legitimate and whole- how much progress they'd make, and how much advancement would go on in the world in general.

 

And I question why that situation is happening- and I ask "how does someone distinguish a teacher with the goods and a teacher without them?" They may have phenomenal inner drive, but perhaps they haven't reached the point where they can accurately distinguish their internal feelings as Ya Mu suggested. They want to do SOMETHING, but don't know what. In light of their internal compass being undeveloped, they rely on their mind, their research, who turns up on google, who talks the best game, who seems like they have the goods from the experience they have.

 

And a lot of times it's the fraud who's got the better marketing campaign.

 

thumb up

[The Way Is Virtue]

Spiritual seekers... If you truly want to learn spiritual disciplines, you have to grow up.... You have to be self-sufficient... One of my first teachers told me... "The Universe is not interested in excuses. It is only interested in results." He was right...

 

I personally think there is a good deal of confusion by many these days regarding the concept of what is considered 'spiritual' and the various practices from various 'spiritual' traditions and whatnot that people do. I have known people who seem to have a great deal of mastery over qi, and who can demonstrate some fairly impressive abilities in internal martial arts, or in external qi projection and healing, for exanple, but I wouldn't consider many of these people particularly 'spiritual', at least from my own personal subjective perspective anyway. That is not to say I wouldn't be interested in learning from some of these people, but I wouldn't confuse this with 'spirituality' however.

 

Many people seem to think that if you can just meet the right teacher that can help you to quickly open up your energy pathways and energy centers, or that if you just learn the right techniques, that you will automatically in short order become quite spiritually advanced. Frankly I do also see a number of teachers as well who, in my opinion, seem to take this attitude that because they have some mastery over qi, or because they have opened some energy centers somewhat or whatever, that they are fairly 'spiritually advanced'. My experience is that this is really not ncessarily the case at all. Many of these teachers do not seem to behave in any way that I would view as anything particularly 'spiritual' and often there is a lot of very obvious ego behind their words and actions.

 

I think that there is a common misconception amongst many in modern sociiety that if a person can display some mastery over internal energy or some special abilities that they somehow must be quite spiritually advanced, or spiritual masters, or the like. I do think this view is at least somewhat related to our strong focus on material things, and strong focus by many these days on themselves and on their own personal gain. To me, all this is the antithesis of sprituality. This is just my own personal view and of course I could be well off the mark, but to me true sprituality is really about lessening the grip of the ego and learning to be more selfless and more aware of how to be of assistance and service to all. It seems to me that when one looks at the core message of almost any spiritual tradition that this is the main message that is being put across, although it may be expressed in different ways. Taking the focus of attention away from the self and focusing more on what is best for the whole of which we are all a part of. So, for me, sprituality is about lessening the grip of the ego and giving less importance to one's personal wants and desires, and moving one's focus to what remains when that is done. If that is not any given teacher's main focus then, in my view, what they are teaching would seem to have little to do with spirituality.

 

Various spiritual traditions may have various practices that are taught in those traditions, but in my view such things are more just tools and stepping stones to help one with the true goal. The main work that needs to be done is more to do with learning selflessness which, said another way, has much to do with cultivating virtue. If the main goal is not on promoting selflessness and lessening the mighty grip of the ego, and being of service to others then these various practices aren't likely going to magically make one any more of a 'spiritual' person than what they are. However, as I have heard said by some, many people these days are not really interested in such things. This is not what people are intersted in hearing about. Instant gratification and the advancement and promotion of the ego are pretty hot items these days however. Most of us can't likely change the world too much, but we can work on changing ourselves. That can be very hard work with a lot of tough challenges though, and maybe not so glamorous and exciting.

Best to everyone.

Edited March 4, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[fiveelementtao]

@WayIsVirtue... Good post. I have posted similar things myself. I have trained with teachers who had some pretty impressive siddhis, but they were not enlightened at all... In fact some were very emotionally immature. Their power actually isolated them and made their emotional issues worse. They used their powers as a drug. Many on this board who are seeking powers/enlightenment out of a need to escape feelings don't realize that if they found what they think they are looking for, they will be even more unhappy than they are now...

 

There is this idea lately that spiritual powers = enlightenment. IME, enlightnement is the old lady down the street who give out cookies to strangers, the person who gives to others unconditionally. ( not out of a need to be "good" or be noticed or to get approval from others) It is compassion and unconditional love by choice... That is something that anyone can give. It has nothing to do with energy. Love, like enlightenment is not a feeling or a state of being but a choice... No energy system can give that. Nothing outside of you can fix you... It is within you and it may take some work to uncover. Without work, you only have what you have now. If you want to change, make the choice, do the work and seek...

 

I think another aspect to this is that what many on this board call enlightenment is not enlightenment at all but escape from pain. I have seen time and again from going to different seminars of teachers who either claim to teach instant enlightenment or allow their followers to ascribe them with teaching instant enlightenment, that many of the people in those seminars are very emotionally damaged.

In a nutshell, the new age, instant enlightenment crowd seems to suffer from serious co-dependence and could benefit from more from either 12 step groups or from psychological counseling than from energy disciplines...

 

This is of course nothing new. It has been part of the spiritual scene for millenia. The new twist today, however, is the idea that spiritual disciplines are like products. So, now we have people who honestly feel that teachers and paths must come to them and prove themselves to the students. The whole idea of seeking and striving as part of the process has been entirely forgotten. So, now we have the combination of co-dependent, escapism combined with internet customer mentality. Whereas before, the student needed to prove themselves worthy of the teacher, the student now believes that it is the teacher who must prove themselves to the student. While this is also true, the student will never know if the path or the teacher is worthy until they themselves walk that path first. They can only know the worth of a teacher or system by experience and action. This knowledge can never come by intellect... Intellect and experience are two completely different universes...

 

The idiom "seek and ye shall find." is a necessary ingredient to any spiritual pathway. One reason why disciplines have secrets is because if one does not seek, even if the answer is right in front of them, they will not see it... The truth is that it is all right in front of us, within us, but if we do not seek, we do not open our minds and we do not find... (edit) The gospel of Thomas actually says it this way, "Do not stop seeking until you find. When you find you will become disturbed. When you are disturbed, you will marvel and reign over all." This takes effort and requires some willingness on the part of the seeker to undergo considerable discomfort if necessary...

 

Another HUGE aspect to all of this is destiny and karma. In traditional teachings, it is emphasized that you will only achieve what is in your destiny to achieve. This has been forgotten because many only learn from books today. But it is essential to know that If you do not have the karma for siddhis, you will not achieve them, regardless of the path you choose. and if you DO have the karma for siddhis, you will achieve them regardless of the path you choose. Any siddhis are given because you have been chosen to use them by the Universe to help in your way. One cannot choose their siddhis. The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. This will also bring the greatest joy. The idea that one can shop around for the best practice forgets that the best practice is whatever one helps you to live your highest destiny based on your karma... I stopped asking for things like money, etc... when I realized this and now I simply pray and meditate this phrase... "May I walk in my highest destiny today." And I may not know what that is from moment to moment. But from that emptiness, the Universe brings new things and I would not be where I am without this understanding.... The only real thing any teacher can share with a student is the emptiness to be ready for their destiny in any moment. This is really the only thing a true teacher transmits to a student. Any energy or shaktipat or any other feeling is nothing in comparison to the ability to accept your destiny without preconception....

Edited March 4, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[markern]

Many on this board who are seeking powers/enlightenment out of a need to escape feelings don't realize that if they found what they think they are looking for, they will be even more unhappy than they are now...

 

 

This I think is very true. Whenever i think about how it would be to have certain siddhis I feel like it would bring me ethical dilemas that are extremely comlex and that I am not ready for yet. I can also feel how it is easy to feel special and too powerfull and howdrug like that can be, sort of like the way the ring in lord of the ring works. I think both these things holds true for almost everyone and that means getting too powerfull siddhis would mess a lot of us up. Later on when you have gotten furhter and have gradually adapted to the complexity and differentness of a spiritual and energetic life it gets easier to handle and one can probably get an intuitive sense of how to handle ones abilities.

 

In addition to seeking siddhis from the start probably being problematic it has always been incomprehensible for me why anyone would spend valuable practice time developing a fun power when they could work on enlightenment or at least emotional and energetic balance.

[Ya Mu]

@WayIsVirtue... Good post. I have posted similar things myself. I have trained with teachers who had some pretty impressive siddhis, but they were not enlightened at all... In fact some were very emotionally immature. Their power actually isolated them and made their emotional issues worse. They used their powers as a drug. Many on this board who are seeking powers/enlightenment out of a need to escape feelings don't realize that if they found what they think they are looking for, they will be even more unhappy than they are now...

 

There is this idea lately that spiritual powers = enlightenment. IME, enlightnement is the old lady down the street who give out cookies to strangers, the person who gives to others unconditionally. ( not out of a need to be "good" or be noticed or to get approval from others) It is compassion and unconditional love by choice... That is something that anyone can give. It has nothing to do with energy. Love, like enlightenment is not a feeling or a state of being but a choice... No energy system can give that. Nothing outside of you can fix you... It is within you and it may take some work to uncover. Without work, you only have what you have now. If you want to change, make the choice, do the work and seek...

 

I think another aspect to this is that what many on this board call enlightenment is not enlightenment at all but escape from pain. I have seen time and again from going to different seminars of teachers who either claim to teach instant enlightenment or allow their followers to ascribe them with teaching instant enlightenment, that many of the people in those seminars are very emotionally damaged.

In a nutshell, the new age, instant enlightenment crowd seems to suffer from serious co-dependence and could benefit from more from either 12 step groups or from psychological counseling than from energy disciplines...

 

This is of course nothing new. It has been part of the spiritual scene for millenia. The new twist today, however, is the idea that spiritual disciplines are like products. So, now we have people who honestly feel that teachers and paths must come to them and prove themselves to the students. The whole idea of seeking and striving as part of the process has been entirely forgotten. So, now we have the combination of co-dependent, escapism combined with internet customer mentality. Whereas before, the student needed to prove themselves worthy of the teacher, the student now believes that it is the teacher who must prove themselves to the student. While this is also true, the student will never know if the path or the teacher is worthy until they themselves walk that path first. They can only know the worth of a teacher or system by experience and action. This knowledge can never come by intellect... Intellect and experience are two completely different universes...

 

The idiom "seek and ye shall find." is a necessary ingredient to any spiritual pathway. One reason why disciplines have secrets is because if one does not seek, even if the answer is right in front of them, they will not see it... The truth is that it is all right in front of us, within us, but if we do not seek, we do not open our minds and we do not find... (edit) The gospel of Thomas actually says it this way, "Do not stop seeking until you find. When you find you will become disturbed. When you are disturbed, you will marvel and reign over all." This takes effort and requires some willingness on the part of the seeker to undergo considerable discomfort if necessary...

 

Another HUGE aspect to all of this is destiny and karma. In traditional teachings, it is emphasized that you will only achieve what is in your destiny to achieve. This has been forgotten because many only learn from books today. But it is essential to know that If you do not have the karma for siddhis, you will not achieve them, regardless of the path you choose. and if you DO have the karma for siddhis, you will achieve them regardless of the path you choose. Any siddhis are given because you have been chosen to use them by the Universe to help in your way. One cannot choose their siddhis. The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. This will also bring the greatest joy. The idea that one can shop around for the best practice forgets that the best practice is whatever one helps you to live your highest destiny based on your karma... I stopped asking for things like money, etc... when I realized this and now I simply pray and meditate this phrase... "May I walk in my highest destiny today." And I may not know what that is from moment to moment. But from that emptiness, the Universe brings new things and I would not be where I am without this understanding.... The only real thing any teacher can share with a student is the emptiness to be ready for their destiny in any moment. This is really the only thing a true teacher transmits to a student. Any energy or shaktipat or any other feeling is nothing in comparison to the ability to accept your destiny without preconception....

Great post!

 

.."The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. ..."

I wish all could understand this.

[The Way Is Virtue]

The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. This will also bring the greatest joy. The idea that one can shop around for the best practice forgets that the best practice is whatever one helps you to live your highest destiny based on your karma... I stopped asking for things like money, etc... when I realized this and now I simply pray and meditate this phrase... "May I walk in my highest destiny today." And I may not know what that is from moment to moment. But from that emptiness, the Universe brings new things and I would not be where I am without this understanding.... The only real thing any teacher can share with a student is the emptiness to be ready for their destiny in any moment. This is really the only thing a true teacher transmits to a student. Any energy or shaktipat or any other feeling is nothing in comparison to the ability to accept your destiny without preconception....

 

Ok, good points. Some might say that really there is no attainment and no destiny, but I do hear what you are saying. These may be just different perspectives of a larger whole. Some say that some teachers may even be able to guide others who are ready beyond all unknowing, but I really don't know one way or the other. I do my best to keep an open mind to all different perspectives, but I think our individual perspectives invariably color how we see things, no matter how open we try to be. All each and every one of us can do is do our best. Times and circumstances change but I don't know that poeple really change all that much overall, although on the surface it may well seem that way. Sometimes I think that what takes our attention is possibly a message to ourself, although we may have to really work at it and stay aware to really find the meaning. Other times I think that I think too much. No doubt everyone is trying in their own way although it often may not seem like it.

Edited March 5, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue