Internet Generation and Tao Training

[fiveelementtao]

I understand what you are saying, but in terms of Taoism, Yoga and any other traditional teaching... There IS destiny. We all chose to come here to accomplish specific tasks and learn as well as help others. To deny destiny is to deny one's gifts. I know that many nowadays see destiny as some kind of trap or obligation like doing homework or chores. But this is a complete misunderstanding of the concept. Living one's destiny is the greatest joy one can have in this life...

 

If we are on a Taoist forum, we must at least consider destiny and karma. It is a major teaching in traditional Taoism. Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.

People on this forum talk about becoming immortals... If they truly want this, this cannot happen without following one's destiny...

 

I myself take great joy in communing with my guides and allowing them to guide me to my destiny. It is truly fulfilling. It is challenging sometimes, but it is always fulfilling...

 

I think that many have forgotten that they already have teachers assigned to them. For those who may be having trouble with meditation, then I suggest simply using that time to ask your guides to help you on your journey. That's it and then WATCH what happens in your life... You can do your own thing if you want, but if you want real adventure, challenges and JOY! Then ask your guides to come to you, work closely with you and bring you your destiny.... Then buckle up and hang on!!!

[The Way Is Virtue]

I understand what you are saying, but in terms of Taoism, Yoga and any other traditional teaching... There IS destiny. We all chose to come here to accomplish specific tasks and learn as well as help others. To deny destiny is to deny one's gifts. I know that many nowadays see destiny as some kind of trap or obligation like doing homework or chores. But this is a complete misunderstanding of the concept. Living one's destiny is the greatest joy one can have in this life...

 

If we are on a Taoist forum, we must at least consider destiny and karma. It is a major teaching in traditional Taoism. Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.

People on this forum talk about becoming immortals... If they truly want this, this cannot happen without following one's destiny...

 

I myself take great joy in communing with my guides and allowing them to guide me to my destiny. It is truly fulfilling. It is challenging sometimes, but it is always fulfilling...

 

I think that many have forgotten that they already have teachers assigned to them. For those who may be having trouble with meditation, then I suggest simply using that time to ask your guides to help you on your journey. That's it and then WATCH what happens in your life... You can do your own thing if you want, but if you want real adventure, challenges and JOY! Then ask your guides to come to you, work closely with you and bring you your destiny.... Then buckle up and hang on!!!

 

Interesting... So many different perspectives. Much to consider. Thanks for the comments.

Edited March 5, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[The Way Is Virtue]

If we are on a Taoist forum, we must at least consider destiny and karma. It is a major teaching in traditional Taoism. Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.

 

Hi 5ET. I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea here, so I decided to comment on this to try to understand where you are coming from with these statements. While it is certainly possible that some Taoist sects may have practices that involve spirit guides (there have been a number of different Taoist traditions with different practices), I have doubts that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplosh their destiny" and that "this is the whole point of meditation".

 

For example, Taoist traditions that practice stillness meditation and internal alchemy meditation certainly don't have a goal of getting in touch with spirt guides in meditation to work out their destiny. Which Taoist sects are you referring to that practice Taoist meditation for the purpose of getting in touch with spirit guides to help them accomplish their destiny?

 

I am aware of one sect of Taoism that did practice 'spirt travel' in meditation but they were accompanied by their real world teacher when learning these practices. Also, I know of 'Orthodox' taoist practice that involve working with various spirits/Deities, but have not previously heard of anything to do with Taoist meditation that has the goal of getting in touch with spirit guides to work out one's purpose or destiny on Earth. I'm not saying I doubt that these practices exist, but just pointing out that this doesn't appear to be a very common practice at all, although I am certainly no expert on Taoism. I would be interested to hear about which Taoist traditions practice this sort of thing however.

 

[Edit]: I'd also be interested to hear a bit more about what you mean about the concepts of destiny and karma as related to Taoism. What Taoist traditions are you speaking of here?

Edited March 5, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Ya Mu]

Hi 5ET. I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea here, so I decided to comment on this to try to understand where you are coming from with these statements. While it is certainly possible that some Taoist sects may have practices that involve spirit guides (there have been a number of different Taoist traditions with different practices), I have doubts that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplosh their destiny" and that "this is the whole point of meditation".

 

For example, Taoist traditions that practice stillness meditation and internal alchemy meditation certainly don't have a goal of getting in touch with spirt guides in meditation to work out their destiny. Which Taoist sects are you referring to that practice Taoist meditation for the purpose of getting in touch with spirit guides to help them accomplish their destiny?

 

I am aware of one sect of Taoism that did practice 'spirt travel' in meditation but they were accompanied by their real world teacher when learning these practices. Also, I know of 'Orthodox' taoist practice that involve working with various spirits/Deities, but have not previously heard of anything to do with Taoist meditation that has the goal of getting in touch with spirit guides to work out one's purpose or destiny on Earth. I'm not saying I doubt that these practices exist, but just pointing out that this doesn't appear to be a very common practice at all, although I am certainly no expert on Taoism. I would be interested to hear about which Taoist traditions practice this sort of thing however.

 

[Edit]: I'd also be interested to hear a bit more about what you mean about the concepts of destiny and karma as related to Taoism. What Taoist traditions are you speaking of here?

5ET is spot on.

Finding and fulfilling Destiny is fundamental to what I practice and teach. Our primary goal. This is the highest Taoist neigong level. This is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine. Of course when we raise our energy body vibration we move closer to the level of the ascended masters. Help is available. But every YOU has to learn responsibility as well.

 

Levels of medicine:

Highest Level - Help patient to find & fulfill Destiny

Mid Level - Mental

Low Level - Physical

Edited March 5, 2011 by Ya Mu

[The Way Is Virtue]

5ET is spot on.

Finding and fulfilling Destiny is fundamental to what I practice and teach. Our primary goal. This is the highest Taoist neigong level. This is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine. Of course when we raise our energy body vibration we move closer to the level of the ascended masters. Help is available. But every YOU has to learn responsibility as well.

Levels of medicine:

Highest Level - Help patient to find & fulfill Destiny

Mid Level - Mental

Low Level - Physical

 

Hi Ya Mu. It is one thing to say that in the particular medical qigong tradition that you learned that the concept of destiny is important, but it would be quite another thing to generalize from this and say

"most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", or the like, if you see what I mean. Also, for you to say "this is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine." is a generalization that I would also have some doubts about, but would not have a problem at all if you had said "this is the highest aspect of the Taoist medicine tradition that I learned and practice.". Two quite different things.

 

As I have mentioned, I understand there are various traditions with different practices, and some teachers learned practices from various traditions such as Taoism and Buddhism and Chinese medicine and other traditions and passed some of these varied practices on to their students, and it may be difficult to pin down in many cases exactly which practices and views originated from which exact traditions.

 

My questions to 5ET were about the broad generalization about traditional taosim that 5ET made in regards to this. I sincerely doubt that it is a valid statement to make. I'd be interested to hear exactly what 5ET is basing that statement on. I think most people who have at least some knowledge of Taoism and its history would agree that making broad sweeping generalizations about Taoism or Taoist practices based on what one has learned from one or even a few teachers is probably not a good idea. I just wouldn't want people who may be new to Taoism to start getting the wrong idea. Also, would be interested to hear about the exact Taoist tradition that 5ET is basing his statement on. Always interested to learn more about Taoism.

[ShaktiMama]

Much love and gratitude to you Sloppy. You have great insights. It is people like you who drive me back to my teachers of many different ages to learn how to be of greater service to people just like you and NOT like you. One of them is still in his 20s as he trains me to be wise in my finances. Awesome experience.

 

I can't spend much time here these days to be here because I am in transition but great thread.

 

s

[fiveelementtao]

Hi Way is virtue,

You are being a typical TTBer right now. Instead of discussing the concept, you want to attack my authority and scholarly expertise...

So, let's attack this another way which will foster more cooperative discussion instead of knitpicking intellectual arguments... Why don't you share why my statements bother you? In other words instead of saying, "I have trouble with this post on a personal reason for this reason..." You have instead said that you doubt my authority to make this statement and so instead of discussing the merits of the subject matter, you want to put me on the defensive and engage in intellectual knitpicking. I don't go there any more...

 

Then YaMu, whose reputation in a traditional taoist sect is well known voices his agreement based on his extensive experience in his tradition and then you want to say he is mistaken because he only teaches taoist medical qigong. As though that is somehow not part of traditional taoism. Where do you think his tradition came from? Medical qigong is among the most profound aspects of ancient Taoist energy traditions. You won't find this stuff in books, martial arts, DVDs or big qigong seminars. This comes from working in transmitted lineage traditions. If you know anything about transmitted lineages, you know that initiation includes being introduced to the ascended masters of that tradition.

 

Way,... So, just because you don't like the concept doesn't mean it isn't part of traditional taoist lineage training... I might be inclined to turn the tables on you and ask how do you know that working with higher guides is not part of traditional taoist internal alchemy? But instead, I would rather focus on what will actually create dialogue instead of needless, typical TTBs intellectual knitpicking argument and discuss why you personally are bothered by the concept I have introduced... I have shared from my personal experience. Why don't you share yours...

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ya Mu. It is one thing to say that in the particular medical qigong tradition that you learned that the concept of destiny is important, but it would be quite another thing to generalize from this and say

"most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", or the like, if you see what I mean. Also, for you to say "this is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine." is a generalization that I would also have some doubts about, but would not have a problem at all if you had said "this is the highest aspect of the Taoist medicine tradition that I learned and practice.". Two quite different things.

 

As I have mentioned, I understand there are various traditions with different practices, and some teachers learned practices from various traditions such as Taoism and Buddhism and Chinese medicine and other traditions and passed some of these varied practices on to their students, and it may be difficult to pin down in many cases exactly which practices and views originated from which exact traditions.

 

My questions to 5ET were about the broad generalization about traditional taosim that 5ET made in regards to this. I sincerely doubt that it is a valid statement to make. I'd be interested to hear exactly what 5ET is basing that statement on. I think most people who have at least some knowledge of Taoism and its history would agree that making broad sweeping generalizations about Taoism or Taoist practices based on what one has learned from one or even a few teachers is probably not a good idea. I just wouldn't want people who may be new to Taoism to start getting the wrong idea. Also, would be interested to hear about the exact Taoist tradition that 5ET is basing his statement on. Always interested to learn more about Taoism.

"Also, for you to say "this is the highest aspect of Taoist medicine." is a generalization that I would also have some doubts about, but would not have a problem at all if you had said "this is the highest aspect of the Taoist medicine tradition that I learned and practice.". Two quite different things."

 

Not two different things. I don't think you understand what is being said. This IS the highest aspect of Chinese Taoist Medicine. It is what is meant by the words "High Level". The other forms are either mid or low. NOT "what I said" or "only in my method" but how it is explained in Chinese Medicine.

And, by the way, I am not the only person to say this. 5ET obviously understands this, Efrem Korngold talks about this, and other teachers who have been trained in High level healing talk about this. It is not saying other medicine forms are bad or ineffective, simply that the form whose goal is "helping patients achieve their Destiny" is the highest goal that one can have.

 

And it is the core of the Taoist neigong that I teach. Finding and fulfilling one's Destiny. There is nothing else that can come close to the inner joy that this brings, a feeling of "coming home". It is the very ultimate that we can do in this lifetime; otherwise what the heck are we doing here, just bidding time? If we were meant to only "hang out in the void" we wouldn't have come to Earth.

 

Spirit guides are ascended masters. I do not know of any Taoism that does not talk about the ascended Masters, but possibly there is?

 

Also interested in more from 5ET, but he has already said this.

I think the confusion may be the interpretation of Destiny? It is not something that just "happens" to you. It is what your Higher Level self, your true inner core, chose. To follow is learning to dance in the Wu Wei, in the synchronicity of all.

[-O-]

I think the confusion might be the association of the terms "Spirit Guides", "Ascended Masters" with new age movements.

[fiveelementtao]

I think the confusion may be the interpretation of Destiny? It is not something that just "happens" to you. It is what your Higher Level self, your true inner core, chose. To follow is learning to dance in the Wu Wei, in the synchronicity of all.

 

I agree Ya Mu, I think the resistance to the concept of destiny for many is coming from a mistaken idea that destiny is being confused with the fatalistic Christianized version of "god's Will" or "Bearing one's Cross." If this is one's unconscious projection onto this idea then, I completely understand one's resistance to being controlled by a deity that wants us to suffer for "god's will." My experience with my guides has destroyed this perverted idea. Instead my experience with them has filled me with joy at the thought of being part of a greater spiritual community.

 

I am coming from the assumption that destiny means that each one of us has chosen to come into this life to fulfill a higher purpose. Part of the learning process is to fight to become aware of this higher purpose.

 

Just as a sidenote, If we want to talk about the history of ascended masters in Taoism... The first organized "taoist" sect was the "Heavenly Masters" sect. This was the first sect that all other Taoist sects sprang from. The second and possibly even more influential sect was the "Shang Ch'ing" sect. This second sect was founded entirely on revelations from the Lady Wei who was a member of the Heavenly Masters sect and who became an immortal herself. after ascending, She then appeared to her descendents and shared methods of internal alchemy to her descendents who then founded the Mao Shan sect. That sect went on to influence either directly or indirectly all other taoist formalized sects. This is undisputed history. For anyone truly interested in how deep working with ascended masters is in the formation of Taoism, I recommend looking into the history of those sects. In the Shang Ch'ing scriptures, the ENTIRE tradition is focused on working with ascended beings and deities and it is firmly established that the whole point of working with them is to realize one's destiny... For some, it is to become an ascended master, for others it is to become an ascended master... perhaps in later lifetimes. People on this forum want to talk about becoming an immortal, well that is the destiny of everyone. Some will just realize it sooner than others... If one wants to speed up the process, then ask your guides to help align you with your destiny and you are that much closer to realizing your ultimate fate, which is to be an ascended master yourself...

 

BY the way, it is not necessary to join a sect to work with your own guides. If it is what is best for you, you will be drawn to a teacher whose highest purpose is to facilitate this connection... But, it is not necessary for all people. Just ask your guides for their help and be open to be flexible and things will change...

[-O-]

Hi Way is virtue,

You are being a typical TTBer right now. Instead of discussing the concept, you want to attack my authority and scholarly expertise...

 

...

 

 

I hate to say this...

 

I read Way's question to be sincere, worded respectfully and focussed on the concept not as a question of anyone credibility or authority.

 

I find this response to be the exact type of behaviour meant by the connotation of a "typical TTB'er".

 

If someone questions, or even disagrees - it is not an attack on credibility or authority.

 

It is better to focus on the words written and address it at face value than to try to dig in and infer personal motives. Whenever there is a response which switches focus from the written content to personal motives the conversation decays into personal arguments.

 

We are equals here, furthering each other’s beliefs, understanding, even thought processes through two way conversation, including debate not in spite of it.

Edited March 5, 2011 by -O-

[fiveelementtao]

I never said Way wasn't sincere... I was merely pointing out that Way was doing what most do on forums which is to argue over intellectual concepts by putting the poster on the defensive rather than discuss the concept from a personal standpoint... It is an attempt to divert and avoid the underlying emotional issues by putting the OP on the defensive. I am not judging Way. But it is the modus operandi of most forum discussions... I still feel that Way's main issue is a personal dislike of the concept. So, even if I gave Way all of the intellectual evidence they ask for, it still does not address the personal, emotional resistance Way may have about the idea. I believe a more constructive way to discuss the issue is to share our personal feelings on the subject rather than passive aggressive questions of "how do you know that?" Or "I'm protecting newbies." etc... Cut the crap! Way doesn't like the idea of destiny on an emotional level that Way has not shared. By putting the focus on me in a passive aggressive way, this is a typical forum behavior to avoid the issue raised. Just because we are all equals does not mean that I am obliged to engage every intellectual diversion tactic that comes along... This is childish schoolyard tactics. If someone wants to engage in a discussion with me, they will be much more successful by sharing personal feelings and experience rather than polarizing intellectualisms... Way is not unique here, it is the operation of left brain thinking that is a direct result of communication via keyboards... I will continue to point it out when I see it... If people don't like my posts, they can ignore me... I have a huge and growing lists of ignoreds myself. It saves alot of time and computer headaches

[The Way Is Virtue]

Hi Way is virtue,

You are being a typical TTBer right now. Instead of discussing the concept, you want to attack my authority and scholarly expertise...

So, let's attack this another way which will foster more cooperative discussion instead of knitpicking intellectual arguments... Why don't you share why my statements bother you? In other words instead of saying, "I have trouble with this post on a personal reason for this reason..." You have instead said that you doubt my authority to make this statement and so instead of discussing the merits of the subject matter, you want to put me on the defensive and engage in intellectual knitpicking. I don't go there any more...

 

Then YaMu, whose reputation in a traditional taoist sect is well known voices his agreement based on his extensive experience in his tradition and then you want to say he is mistaken because he only teaches taoist medical qigong. As though that is somehow not part of traditional taoism. Where do you think his tradition came from? Medical qigong is among the most profound aspects of ancient Taoist energy traditions. You won't find this stuff in books, martial arts, DVDs or big qigong seminars. This comes from working in transmitted lineage traditions. If you know anything about transmitted lineages, you know that initiation includes being introduced to the ascended masters of that tradition.

 

Way,... So, just because you don't like the concept doesn't mean it isn't part of traditional taoist lineage training... I might be inclined to turn the tables on you and ask how do you know that working with higher guides is not part of traditional taoist internal alchemy? But instead, I would rather focus on what will actually create dialogue instead of needless, typical TTBs intellectual knitpicking argument and discuss why you personally are bothered by the concept I have introduced... I have shared from my personal experience. Why don't you share yours...

 

Hi 5ET. I most certainly am not "questioning your authority" and I think it was pretty clear that I was actually just asking for clarification on some of your specific comments such as "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", which I have sincere doubts about beoing a valid generalization about Taoism, as I have previously explained. You have avoided my questions above, and that is fine as it is your perogative, although I do find your other statements above more than a little odd. You clearly are on the defensive, and that is quite understandable since you have made statements that you do not seem to be able to back up. Your appeal to unquestionable authority by virtue that you have studied some 'taoist' tradition or traditions isn't really helping clarify anything at all, in my opinion.

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive at all however, as I was just looking for clarification on what you said previously. I think it was pretty clear that this is what I was doing, and I think you do know that, despite what you say above. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that those who practice internal alchemy meditation do not have encounters with spiritual beings of one sort or another, as I would actually expect that they probably do, but that is quite different from the idea that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.". I have never heard of the goal of taoist internal alchemy meditation described as such but, as I said, I am certainly no expert on Taoism so I am open to learning more if someone can back up what they are saying with something substantial. Again, I am not doubting that such practices may exist. There is always more to learn, no? Anyway, no worries, 5ET. I have said what I wanted to say, so all is fine. Best to you.

[fiveelementtao]

Hi 5ET. I most certainly am not "questioning your authority"

 

Really?

 

I sincerely doubt that it is a valid statement to make. I'd be interested to hear exactly what 5ET is basing that statement on... I just wouldn't want people who may be new to Taoism to start getting the wrong idea... Also, would be interested to hear about the exact Taoist tradition that 5ET is basing his statement on.

 

sounds pretty challenging to me...

 

Way... again making this about me... You did not answer my question which is what is your personal feeling and experience about the subject.

Edited March 5, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[-O-]

I never said Way wasn't sincere... I was merely pointing out that Way was doing what most do on forums which is to argue over intellectual concepts by putting the poster on the defensive rather than discuss the concept from a personal standpoint... It is an attempt to divert and avoid the underlying emotional issues by putting the OP on the defensive. I am not judging Way. But it is the modus operandi of most forum discussions... I still feel that Way's main issue is a personal dislike of the concept. So, even if I gave Way all of the intellectual evidence they ask for, it still does not address the personal, emotional resistance Way may have about the idea. I believe a more constructive way to discuss the issue is to share our personal feelings on the subject rather than passive aggressive questions of "how do you know that?" Or "I'm protecting newbies." etc... Cut the crap! Way doesn't like the idea of destiny on an emotional level that Way has not shared. By putting the focus on me in a passive aggressive way, this is a typical forum behavior to avoid the issue raised. Just because we are all equals does not mean that I am obliged to engage every intellectual diversion tactic that comes along... This is childish schoolyard tactics. If someone wants to engage in a discussion with me, they will be much more successful by sharing personal feelings and experience rather than polarizing intellectualisms... Way is not unique here, it is the operation of left brain thinking that is a direct result of communication via keyboards... I will continue to point it out when I see it... If people don't like my posts, they can ignore me... I have a huge and growing lists of ignoreds myself. It saves alot of time and computer headaches

 

 

Well it's your right to see thing as you do. I want to ask you a question and please know it is with the upmost, heartfelt sincerity that I ask it. Are you okay?

[Ya Mu]

5ET said, "If we want to talk about the history of ascended masters in Taoism... The first organized "taoist" sect was the "Heavenly Masters" sect. This was the first sect that all other Taoist sects sprang from. The second and possibly even more influential sect was the "Shang Ch'ing" sect. This second sect was founded entirely on revelations from the Lady Wei who was a member of the Heavenly Masters sect and who became an immortal herself. after ascending, She then appeared to her descendents and shared methods of internal alchemy to her descendents who then founded the Mao Shan sect. That sect went on to influence either directly or indirectly all other taoist formalized sects. This is undisputed history. For anyone truly interested in how deep working with ascended masters is in the formation of Taoism, I recommend looking into the history of those sects. In the Shang Ch'ing scriptures, the ENTIRE tradition is focused on working with ascended beings and deities and it is firmly established that the whole point of working with them is to realize one's destiny... For some, it is to become an ascended master, for others it is to become an ascended master... perhaps in later lifetimes. People on this forum want to talk about becoming an immortal, well that is the destiny of everyone. Some will just realize it sooner than others... If one wants to speed up the process, then ask your guides to help align you with your destiny and you are that much closer to realizing your ultimate fate, which is to be an ascended master yourself..."

Hi 5ET. I most certainly am not "questioning your authority" and I think it was pretty clear that I was actually just asking for clarification on some of your specific comments such as "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny", which I have sincere doubts about beoing a valid generalization about Taoism, as I have previously explained. You have avoided my questions above, and that is fine as it is your perogative, although I do find your other statements above more than a little odd. You clearly are on the defensive, and that is quite understandable since you have made statements that you do not seem to be able to back up. Your appeal to unquestionable authority by virtue that you have studied some 'taoist' tradition or traditions isn't really helping clarify anything at all, in my opinion.

 

At any rate, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive at all however, as I was just looking for clarification on what you said previously. I think it was pretty clear that this is what I was doing, and I think you do know that, despite what you say above. By the way, I wasn't suggesting that those who practice internal alchemy meditation do not have encounters with spiritual beings of one sort or another, as I would actually expect that they probably do, but that is quite different from the idea that "most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.". I have never heard of the goal of taoist internal alchemy meditation described as such but, as I said, I am certainly no expert on Taoism so I am open to learning more if someone can back up what they are saying with something substantial. Again, I am not doubting that such practices may exist. There is always more to learn, no? Anyway, no worries, 5ET. I have said what I wanted to say, so all is fine. Best to you.

It is appears to me that he directly addressed your question. Did you read it? Your wording of your response to me was interpreted by me exactly as 5ET interpreted. Although I did answer at face value. These words in your response to him, "...At any rate, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive.." are exactly the type of passive aggressive response he was referring to. It appears you are trying to imply that he was actually on the defensive which was not what I read - at all.

Edited March 5, 2011 by Ya Mu

[The Way Is Virtue]

Really?

sounds pretty challenging to me...

Way... again making this about me... You did not answer my question which is what is your personal feeling and experience about the subject.

 

Hi 5ET. I was asking for clarification about statements you have made. That is all. I thnk that was pretty clear. My personal experience is really not a factor in that at all, that I can see. I have expressed my personal view about the subject several times above. I am always interested in discussing taoism, but have no real interest in participating in arguments. Best to you.

[Stigweard]

This conversation is going in an interesting direction.

 

I can vouch that, at least in the training I have had, communication with Tian Xian, Heavenly Immortals, is most definitely part of the the Taoist ontology. But let's not get caught up in the perception that they are just the "ascended master" type (i.e. human sages who have transcended the physical form).

 

It is said, and I have some limited experience of this, spirit beings or nature spirits can come and reside in ones energy matrix after being attracted to the energy you carry and the particular practices you engage with. Certain spirit beings form a "relationship" with particular lineages and if you engage in the practices of that lineage then these spirit beings will be attracted to you and will help.

 

The stern warning here is not to seek them out prematurely. They will make themselves apparent to you as your energy and your perception becomes more subtly attuned.

 

Destiny is an interesting topic (obviously). In the Fu Jyeo / Invocation work that I have engaged in there is an interesting phrase in the Jade Emperors' Heart Seal Sutra:

 

Once you achieve success in your cultivation,

the result is eternity.

Jade marrow will fill your bones.

If you succeed, this Sacred Immortal Medicine,

the goal of your cultivation,

will certainly be achieved.

If you fail to obtain the Sacred Immortal Medicine,

your energy resources will eventually become exhausted,

and you will be bound to your biological destiny.

 

There are two things relevant to this current discussion. Firstly, according to this tradition, the "highest level" of cultivation is the achievement of Xin Dan, the Golden Elixir, or the Sacred Immortal Medicine.

 

Secondly we have the notion of having a biological destiny and what perhaps could be called a "spiritual destiny". I personally sense that this is very much related to the whole Hun / Po discussion, where Hun is our heavenly spiritual essence and Po is our Earthly biological essence.

 

To play with what 5ET and Ya Mu are saying, it is part of the Taoist ontology that sooner or later, in our myriad rounds of incarnation, we will eventually develop ourselves to the point where we will succeed in procuring Xin Dan and achieve spiritual immortality.

 

So if a particular healing art in practice truly assists the individual achieve Xin Dan and therefore the state of Tian Xian (Heavenly Immortality), then "Yes" I would concur that this healing art operates on the Highest Level in the sense of facilitating our "ultimate" spiritual destiny.

 

Edited March 5, 2011 by Stigweard

[The Way Is Virtue]

never mind - I don't have the time right now

 

I actually was replying to you before you deleted your comments but I accidentally hit a key by mistake that caused my reply to get cancelled. Ya Mu, I hear what you are saying and, to clarify, I don't have a problem with the concept of destiny in Taoism, but was expressing doubts that this is a central theme and central goal in taoist meditation from all taoist tradition. Hope that is clearer. I have mnade it clear that I don;t doubt that some traditions may have had that as an important theme in their meditation. Regarding taoist medicine, I really don't know much at all about the various taoist traditions that include it, so I can't really comment further on whether all taoist medicine traditions include the exact same taoist medicine practices and views, other than I'd be surprised if taoist medicine practices and views from the various taoist traditions were all exactly the same. Either way, that is quite besides the point of my comments which were specifically in regards to stsatements that 5ET made, as I would thnk is clear. Best to you.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I think the confusion might be the association of the terms "Spirit Guides", "Ascended Masters" with new age movements.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. When I hear the term 'spirit guide' I think of it in the sense that is most commonly used, as one's personal spirit guide that guides and watches over one in dreams and various spiritual experiences and such. The terms 'spirit guide' and 'ascended master' are two quite different terms as far as I am concerned, although both derive from new age terminology so it seems natural that opne would assume that one is referring to the new age concepts of these terms if one uses them. However the term acended masters only popped into the discussion after Ya Mu joined in. Yes, it sure does tend to cofuse matters when people mix new age terms in on a discussion on traditional taoism.

[Ya Mu]

This conversation is going in an interesting direction.

 

I can vouch that, at least in the training I have had, communication with Tian Xian, Heavenly Immortals, is most definitely part of the the Taoist ontology. But let's not get caught up in the perception that they are just the "ascended master" type (i.e. human sages who have transcended the physical form).

 

It is said, and I have some limited experience of this, spirit beings or nature spirits can come and reside in ones energy matrix after being attracted to the energy you carry and the particular practices you engage with. Certain spirit beings form a "relationship" with particular lineages and if you engage in the practices of that lineage then these spirit beings will be attracted to you and will help.

 

The stern warning here is not to seek them out prematurely. They will make themselves apparent to you as your energy and your perception becomes more subtly attuned.

 

Destiny is an interesting topic (obviously). In the Fu Jyeo / Invocation work that I have engaged in there is an interesting phrase in the Jade Emperors' Heart Seal Sutra:

 

Once you achieve success in your cultivation,

the result is eternity.

Jade marrow will fill your bones.

If you succeed, this Sacred Immortal Medicine,

the goal of your cultivation,

will certainly be achieved.

If you fail to obtain the Sacred Immortal Medicine,

your energy resources will eventually become exhausted,

and you will be bound to your biological destiny.

 

There are two things relevant to this current discussion. Firstly, according to this tradition, the "highest level" of cultivation is the achievement of Xin Dan, the Golden Elixir, or the Sacred Immortal Medicine.

 

Secondly we have the notion of having a biological destiny and what perhaps could be called a "spiritual destiny". I personally sense that this is very much related to the whole Hun / Po discussion, where Hun is our heavenly spiritual essence and Po is our Earthly biological essence.

 

To play with what 5ET and Ya Mu are saying, it is part of the Taoist ontology that sooner or later, in our myriad rounds of incarnation, we will eventually develop ourselves to the point where we will succeed in procuring Xin Dan and achieve spiritual immortality.

 

So if a particular healing art in practice truly assists the individual achieve Xin Dan and therefore the state of Tian Xian (Heavenly Immortality), then "Yes" I would concur that this healing art operates on the Highest Level in the sense of facilitating our "ultimate" spiritual destiny.

 

My definition/understanding of "ascended masters" is not just "human sages who have transcended the physical form." The universe is rather large, eh?

[Stigweard]

My definition/understanding of "ascended masters" is not just "human sages who have transcended the physical form." The universe is rather large, eh?

[Ya Mu]

I think you hit the nail on the head. When I hear the term 'spirit guide' I think of it in the sense that is most commonly used, as one's personal spirit guide that guides and watches over one in dreams and various spiritual experiences and such. The terms 'spirit guide' and 'ascended master' are two quite different terms as far as I am concerned, although both derive from new age terminology so it seems natural that opne would assume that one is referring to the new age concepts of these terms if one uses them. However the term acended masters only popped into the discussion after Ya Mu joined in. Yes, it sure does tend to cofuse matters when people mix new age terms in on a discussion on traditional taoism.

Another passive aggressive attack on me, eh? "However the term acended masters only popped into the discussion after Ya Mu joined in." .."Yes, it sure does tend to cofuse matters when people mix new age terms in on a discussion on traditional taoism." Yep, all my fault, eh?

 

Are you basing this on anything at all in terms of Taoism? The term "ascended masters" has been used by Taoists for a very long time. Have you actually studied any Taoism? It matters not what people call them, spirit guides, ascended masters, immortals, hey dude; all this doesn't take away from the fact that they are there - per real Taoist teachings not "new age" (whatever the fuck that means) but "old age". And they don't only assist in "dreams and various spiritual experiences ".

Here you have major teachers - who agree- trying to tell you something about Taoism and it appears all you wish to do is spit out these passive aggressive responses instead of actually discussing the subject.

[The Way Is Virtue]

It is appears to me that he directly addressed your question. Did you read it? Your wording of your response to me was interpreted by me exactly as 5ET interpreted. Although I did answer at face value. These words in your response to him, "...At any rate, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive.." are exactly the type of passive aggressive response he was referring to. It appears you are trying to imply that he was actually on the defensive which was not what I read - at all.

 

Hi Ya Mu. Just saw this reply now. To think that all this is because I asked for clarification on some statements made by 5ET that made a broad generalization about taoist goals and pracitces.

 

A few last comments:

 

I don't have a problem with the concept of destiny in taoism. I do doubt that this is a major theme and goal in all forms of taoist meditation however, as I have stated from the beginning, and which I was asking for clarification on.

 

I didn't realize that 5ET was referring to high level spiritual masters or beings when he used the term 'spirit guide'. 'Spirit guide' is usually used in a new age or similar context or shamnistic context of a personal spirit guide that is dedicated to guiding and protecting someone in their spiritual endeavours.

This usually does not refer to high level spriritual beings which one may encounter in spiritual cultivation practices however. Likewise terms like ascended masters and raising energy vibrations are fairly common new age terms.

 

Like many other people, I have read up some on taoist history, so I am aware about some of the history of how various taoist traditions arose and changed and branched and merged and disappeared etc. No need to rehash such details I don't think, and no need to imply that this is something I need to learn about.

 

Best to everyone...