Internet Generation and Tao Training

[-O-]

I personally am not impressed with these major teachers.

 

Seems really defensive, taking things really personally.... sheesh. I doesn't, to me, seem lke indication of self mastery at all... just arrogance; there doesn't appear to be any intention toward shareing or education - just "being right".

 

 

But hell, who am I or anyone else to say, seen as we are not "major" in anyother way then as a pain in the a$$ of the "teachers".

 

5ET YM, I use to respect both of you. Now all I can do is shake my head.

 

That passive aggressive enough?

[Ya Mu]

... and no need to imply that this is something I need to learn about.

...

I think you are entirely correct. Most people don't really wish to know inner mechanisms of Taoism so you are in the majority.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[The Way Is Virtue]

Another passive aggressive attack on me, eh? "However the term acended masters only popped into the discussion after Ya Mu joined in." .."Yes, it sure does tend to cofuse matters when people mix new age terms in on a discussion on traditional taoism." Yep, all my fault, eh?

 

re you basing this on anything at all in terms of Taoism? The term "ascended masters" has been used by Taoists for a very long time. Have you actually studied any Taoism? It matters not what people call them, spirit guides, ascended masters, immortals, hey dude; all this doesn't take away from the fact that they are there - per real Taoist teachings not "new age" (whatever the fuck that means) but "old age". And they don't only assist in "dreams and various spiritual experiences ".

Here you have major teachers - who agree- trying to tell you something about Taoism and it appears all you wish to do is spit out these passive aggressive responses instead of actually discussing the subject.

 

Good grief. I have not been implying or saying that there are not high level spritual beings or masters or whatever one wants to call them, just pointed out that the terms being used were likely to cause misunderstanding. I see no point to continue repeating myself any further.

 

Best to you, Ya Mu.

[-O-]

THe internet also give people an idea of how teachers behave to other, how they handle adversity etc. No need for good karma, or essence of the tao to see when people have respect, or demand it.

[Ya Mu]

I personally am not impressed with these major teachers.

 

Seems really defensive, taking things really personally.... sheesh. I doesn't, to me, seem lke indication of self mastery at all... just arrogance; there doesn't appear to be any intention toward shareing or education - just "being right".

 

 

But hell, who am I or anyone else to say, seen as we are not "major" in anyother way then as a pain in the a$$ of the "teachers".

 

5ET YM, I use to respect both of you. Now all I can do is shake my head.

 

That passive aggressive enough?

Well it's your right to see thing as you do. I want to ask you a question and please know it is with the upmost, heartfelt sincerity that I ask it. Are you okay?

You demonstrated your view with the above statement.

 

These forums always have those that attack teachers. And those that post challenges when we post. From those that have no desire whatsoever to learn but to show their own importance. Doesn't bother me, I am posting for those few percentages of folks that actually want real information on Taoist practices.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Ya Mu

[-O-]

I represent myself and no other.

 

Yourself and 5ET represent the schools you have worked hard to build, the lineage you have had the honor to be a part of, and the student body to which you councel.

 

When you engage in pettiness like this it, it is not about the disrepect to the person you are speaking with, but the disrespect you are showing to the honored role which you hold. It spits on the divine aspect which you are attempting to facilitate.

Edited March 6, 2011 by -O-

[Ya Mu]

I represent myself and no other.

 

Yourself and 5ET represent the schools you have worked hard to build, the lineage you have had the honor to be a part of, and the student body to which you councel.

 

When you engage in pettiness like this it, it is not about the disrepect to the person you are speaking with, but the disrespect you are showing to the honored role which you hold. It spits on the divine aspect which you are attempting to facilitate.

(side note big guys - no nerves where hit except for the one that giggles when I come across flawed logic. I respond to the words written - not man writting them. Doing that levels the field and allows the lowly to call the high on their crap etc... so when reading my post try it with a cold monotone and perhaps a cheek full of tongue - I don't get upset at these things easliy and get offended even less - especially here)

O

You showed your true colors and what you were up to with the above posts. I engage in no pettiness with the exception of responding to the crap like you post above. You have repeatedly tried to put me as well as 5ET down rather than speak on the subject on the thread. Don't you think it yet old? Try giving it a rest and actually speak on the thread subject.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Ya Mu

[fiveelementtao]

My personal experience is really not a factor in that at all, that I can see.

Why not? What's the point of having this discussion if we don't share our personal feelings and experiences? It's clear to me that you wanted to challenge the idea of destiny because you yourself don't like the idea for some reason. I don't know what that reason is, but by shutting down emotionally, you went into your head which is ALWAYS passive aggressive. and instead of sharing your feelings, which would have opened up an entirely NEW dimension to whole purpose of destiny and working with spirit guides, we are reduced to intellectual sparring over who has the most book knowledge.

 

Who cares about that? what good is any of that knowledge if it cannot be put into practice and elevate our minds and emotions?

[-O-]

Edited March 6, 2011 by -O-

[-O-]

Edited March 6, 2011 by -O-

[Ya Mu]

 

Just a whole boatload of pure nonsense that I am not going to attempt to respond to. You have taken it upon yourself to attack me.

People on forums attack teachers for many reasons. Some people attack teachers because they are just general assholes. Others because they are young and ignorant. Others because they hold negativity in their heart and feel betrayed by a teacher. The last sort should stop the practice that made them that way and seek help.

You and I are done on this thread.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Ya Mu

[The Way Is Virtue]

Why not? What's the point of having this discussion if we don't share our personal feelings and experiences? It's clear to me that you wanted to challenge the idea of destiny because you yourself don't like the idea for some reason. I don't know what that reason is, but by shutting down emotionally, you went into your head which is ALWAYS passive aggressive. and instead of sharing your feelings, which would have opened up an entirely NEW dimension to whole purpose of destiny and working with spirit guides, we are reduced to intellectual sparring over who has the most book knowledge.

Who cares about that? what good is any of that knowledge if it cannot be put into practice and elevate our minds and emotions?

 

Hi 5ET. In all sincerety, it really seems to me that both you and Ya Mu are arguing with your imaginations. You have been ascribing words and actions and motivations to me that have little to no relation whatsoever to what I have been saying and what I was commenting on, where you could have instead just simply asked me for clarification if you weren't sure what I saying. At no point did I say that I have a problem with the idea of destiny in taoism. Much of the divination and related practices in taoism are indeeed concerned with such things. I did originally say I was interested in hearing more about your views on destiny and karma in taoism, and more about where you were coming from in regards to this.

 

What I was commenting on was your following statement:

"Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth."

 

My comment was that although this may be the case in some taoist traditions, I don't believe that this is the main goal in all forms of taoist meditation (keeping in mind that various different traditions exist/existed in taoism as a whole). My understanding is that in at least some taoist traditions which place emphasis on the practice of internal alchemy meditation and stillness meditation (quanzhen traditions, for example), the highest goals seem to about spiritual transformation and liberation (spiritual immortality), and at the highest level something that is sometimes referred to as 'merging with tao', which is said to be an indescribable state that can only be experienced after achieving a very high level in one's cultivation, as I understand it anyway. I brought this up because I thought people who might be new to the various views and practices of taoism as a whole might get the wrong impression from what you said. Also, I thnk your use of the term 'spirit guides' was prone to some confusion as well, as it really seemed you were referring to the personal kind of spirit guides that people sometines speak of that provide guidance and assistance and protection to one in dreams and spiritual practices and the like, as opposed to 'high level' spiritual beings/deities/gods and such. This is why I was asking for clarifiaction on what you were saying and on where you were coming from with that.

 

That is really all I have been saying, in a nutshell. I don't really have anything further to comment on this at this point, as I don't believe it would be productive.

All the best to you 5ET.

[fiveelementtao]

So. Way, my friend... I'm over all that. I've heard your personal defense a few times now. I just don't completely buy it. I apologize if I seem angry...I can be direct. especially when I feel somebody is not being completely forthright with their feelings. So, Contrary to what you may think, I am not angry with you. I am trying to move the discussion to a more cooperative direction. I think your objection to the subject is important and can be helpful to others by exploring your personal reaction to the idea of destiny instead of focusing on who is right and who is wrong...So, I'm now asking you a new question. Which you are refusing to answer. Why (based on your experience and/or feelings) do you disagree with or dislike the idea of destiny being central to spiritual practice? How does it effect you.

 

On a personal note: To stay on topic of the thread, one of the things I have noticed in the internet generationers with little, knowledge or experience is the idea that if they can create clever intellectual arguments, this can somehow make something true even in spite of the experience of others. You yourself said that your knowledge of taoism is limited, yet you feel that you need to correct my "incorrect" generalizations.

 

Just for arguments sake and you are right and my generalization is totally off in light of the book knowledge...What if all the books are wrong? One thing I respect about Shaktimama is that she openly disagrees with some traditional teachings about Kundalini which I have called her on, but she is fearless when she says that she doesn't like some traditional teachings because her experience differs from that. Even though I may disagree with her conclusions, I cannot argue against her experience, and if I haven't said so, Shaktimama, I respect you for your bravery and sticking to your guns. That is why I recommend her to students seeking kundalini teachings...

 

So, Way,...You can sign off on this discussion if you want...I'm responding to you in particular because your responses do reflect alot of what I think adds to the discord and confusion and safe, intellectual passive aggressiveness on this site. So, I am also trying to help newbies... There are alot of people here who only know how to confront and be contrary and not discuss from their personal feelings. especially when they don't like or are threatened by something someone "in authority" has said. I have shared quite a bit of my personal experience which is what adds to my opinions. I won't try to argue against your feelings unless you hide behind them just to challenge me. Because when it comes to our feelings we are all equal and no amount of book knowledge can invalidate feelings or experience. That, I think is much more interesting than the intellectual slant of trying to see who is more "correct" based on scholarly sources.

 

So, if you really want to have a discussion with me, you will be better served by sharing feelings and experience.

 

Good luck to you...

[Spectrum]

If they don't want to eat at your table don't offer them appetizers.

[Birch]

I suspect I may have never gotten to meet and discuss with many good folks and teachers had it not been for internet. And mainly TTBs

 

As a result, yes, I am not faithful to one lineage or teacher, yes I pick and choose and strangely enough, lots of teachers have "appeared" to me as a result of me being simply online and sharing this and that back and forth.

 

Some have also run in the opposite direction. But at least I'm pretty sure it wasn't due to my lack of respect. If you have it offline, you should have it online :-)

 

There have been moments where I felt/was strongly linked with one teacher and then that faded. People here have healed me. Isn't that incredible??

 

Perhaps my commitment to a specific practice isn't "enough" for many who teach. Yet I have also discussed with others the idea of taking up practices in a way that's pretty much as far as you can get from the "goal-oriented" approach we're talking about.

 

The reason I am not currently training with several of the awesome teachers on TTBs is a direct result of this way of asking what I should be training. Goals are set by small i. That's about as clear as I can suggest it.

 

I think my age might put me halfway between old and new schools but my experience so far has been that whether online or off, things pretty much seem to happen.

[Stigweard]

LOL

 

So the old dogs think they know better because they have been around the block more times, and the new dogs think they are better because they believe they are the ones who are up with the times.

 

So what else is new

 

I think it all comes down to RESPECT.

 

The old'ens must respect the young'ens because they DO have an energetic fresh view of things and their tenacity to see new ways can be a boon for progression of the arts. And the young'ens must respect the old'ens because they HAVE been around the block more times and the treasure of their experience is what the young'ens must build upon.

 

On another note...

 

If a student fails to do what the teacher asks, is it the fault of the student for not listening or not being motivated enough ... or is it the fault of the teacher for not communicating properly or not providing the right stimulus for motivation???

 

Spectrum said above: If they don't want to eat at your table don't offer them appetizers.

 

Perhaps it could also be said: Serve them the appetizers they desire so that they will want to eat at your table.

 

[Kali Yuga]

Getting trapped in the realm of words only leads one to more suffering.

[The Way Is Virtue]

I think it all comes down to RESPECT.

The old'ens must respect the young'ens because they DO have an energetic fresh view of things and their tenacity to see new ways can be a boon for progression of the arts. And the young'ens must respect the old'ens because they HAVE been around the block more times and the treasure of their experience is what the young'ens must build upon.

 

In Chinese culture, including Taoism, there is a strong emphasis placed on students giving full respect to their teachers, but it is also implied that the teachers should be worthy of respect and what they are teaching should be valid and authentic teachings. Also, respect for elders and one's teachers is considered very important in Confucianism, which appears to have had a very strong impact on all Chinese culture, including Taoism.

 

However, one would expect a teacher of a genuine spritual tradition such as Taoism, for example, who genuinely has the best interests of others in mind should certainly not be all put off, or get angry, or start making derogatory statements to a person for simply asking for some clarification or for some further substantiation about something the teacher has claimed, or for asking for specific details about the tradition the teacher is claiming to teach.

 

No one is perfect, but if one gets strong negative reactions from a supposed master or teacher for just asking a few questions, you can be sure that something is very wrong. Yes, a student should be respectful to their teachers, but it is also a given that teachers should be respectful to everyone else as well. If they are not, then one should really wonder about what such a person is really representing. Taoism is at its core a spiritual cultivation tradition, and if the teacher is showing a lot of ego and arrogance, and tends to show disdain to anyone just for asking some questions or for inquiring about specific details of the teacher's claimed lineage/tradition, etc., then it is obvious something is very wrong.

 

I have said this before, but it bears repeating again. In my experience, just because someone can display some mastery over qi such as having some internal martial arts skill or qigong healing abilities, etc., by no means does it mean that such a person is necessarily any sort of spritual master. If a person is frequently showing a lot of ego in their actions and words, and being quite negative or dismissive towards anyone who merely asks questions or who points out that something the teacher has said does not appear to be entirely correct, then for certain something is very wrong.

 

In my view, at the very core of almost any spiritual tradition is the idea of giving less importance to one's personal wants and desires, subduing the ego, cultivating virtue, being of assistance and service to others and society as a whole where one can, etc. If a given 'spiritual' teacher does not embody much of these priciples, at least to some extent, and instead is quite the opposite in some ways, then indeed something is very wrong there. Therefore, I think it is important for a potential student to initially ask various questions of a potential teacher about their views and the tradition they are claiming to represent, and if the teacher starts immediately becoming very negative and defensive, or angry, or dismissive, then I personally think the student would be well advised to move on and keep looking for another teacher. I would hope that this would be a given, but it seems some people are sometimes quite fixated on certain skills a teacher might be able to display and thus not looking at the big picture, which I think is very important, expecially if a teacher is claiming to be some sort of master of a genuine spritual tradition.

 

 

On another note...

If a student fails to do what the teacher asks, is it the fault of the student for not listening or not being motivated enough ... or is it the fault of the teacher for not communicating properly or not providing the right stimulus for motivation???

Spectrum said above: If they don't want to eat at your table don't offer them appetizers.

Perhaps it could also be said: Serve them the appetizers they desire so that they will want to eat at your table.

 

Well, I really don't think it is required or even desirable for the teacher of a valid spiritual tradition to try to lure students in by offering things that they think will be attractive to potential students. That is more of the "Tao Incorporated" or "Jesus Incorporated, etc." approach it seems to me, and there is no doubt that those who are mainly interested in making money at this sort of game do that sort of thing, but I guess that is not what you meant here.

 

It is true the teacher should definitely be offering some authentic teachings from an authentic tradition if they are representing themselves as such, and the teacher should be fully open about any questions in regards to the authenticity of what they are teaching as well. If they become annoyed or angry or defensive when a potential student asks questions about such things, then again, something is very wrong, IMO.

 

I have seen a lot of different teachers over the years, and learned from some, put have passed on quite a few as well, for reasons such as I have described above. IMO, potential students should consider such things carefully and be prepared with various questions when they go to see any given teacher, so they can try to get some idea where the teacher is really coming from. A genuine teacher of a genuine tradition will be very open towards inquiries, as long as it is done in a respectful way of course, and will welcome sincere questions from anyone, as a true spiritual teacher will genuinely have the best interests of others in their heart, and they will therefore welcome sincere interest and inquiry about what the are teaching. A true spiritual teacher will be somewhat like a breath of fresh air and sunshine to a sincere potential student, but if they are actually more of the opposite then I thnk one should consider carefully why exactly that might be.

Best to all seekers...

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Spectrum]

"Four Arguments for the elimination of Television" Jerry Bander

"Amusing ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Entertainment" Neil Postman

"Understanding Media" Marshall McCluhan

[Guest allan]

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[fiveelementtao]

Well, I guess Way is not interested in a two way discussion about the role of destiny. Instead he would rather engage in passive aggressive swipes at me in the third person with others. I answered his questions, but he refuses to answer mine which I think would have opened up a new and interesting discussion... I find it a bit hypocritical and controlling to demand questions from an OP but be unwilling to answer any in return... And it illustrates my original point of this thread quite well... I am beginning to wonder if others who have left this forum might be on the right track... If the point of this forum has become to find a place for those who do not wish to take risks beyond sitting in front of a computer and indulging in intellectualisms, then I wonder what benefit there is for those of us who only use this arena as a supplementary practice...

 

As one person who has left described this place as having become " a place where a bunch of "pat-each-other-on-back-juveniles have taken over"... I must say that I am beginning to agree...

Edited March 7, 2011 by fiveelementtao

[Sloppy Zhang]

What's funny is that each group will see the other group as falling into these categories

 

I am beginning to wonder if others who have left this forum might be on the right track...

 

Our forum is a paradox.

 

On the one hand, you do not gain much experience unless you get away from the computer and actually do stuff....

 

But on the other, the point of a discussion forum is to, well, discuss, which, by its very nature, runs counter to the philosophies that many of us here follow!

 

I guess as with many other things, there is a point of diminishing returns, and you have to be able to realize at what point your returns diminish.

 

There is even at a point during training in which, if you keep training, you won't help yourself, so it's best to take a break. TTB's is a great way to take a break. But it's also good to know when you need to take a break from TTB's.

 

As one person who has left described this place as having become " a place where a bunch of "pat-each-other-on-back-juveniles have taken over"... I must say that I am beginning to agree...

 

And it's funny because each group will see the other in that statement as well!

 

Person A: "You need to stop talking and get a real life teacher."

Person B: "Great point, person A, you deserve a pat on the back!"

 

Person C: "Teachers need to be more open about their methods and abilities."

Person D: "Great point, person C, you deserve a pat on the back!"

 

Edited March 7, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[The Way Is Virtue]

But on the other, the point of a discussion forum is to, well, discuss, which, by its very nature, runs counter to the philosophies that many of us here follow!

 

Good points. Regarding discussion, of the taoists I have known and do know, non were/are particularly against discussion. Most partake of it themselves. Discussion can sometimes be quite helpful in passing general ideas and concepts and methods and experiences along, and in determining how well someone understands a concept, etc. However, there is a time for discussion and a time for practice. I think it is really when the time for practice starts to suffer that there starts to be a problem, but this is something that we all could no doubt improve on at least somewhat.

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue