Chinese Mothers

[Enishi]

[markern]

I have read about ti and I think it reduces peples worth to showdogs. I think it is an inhumane, bordeline fascistic way of bringing up a child.

[thelerner]

Ahh, the 'tiger' moms. In its pure form its overdoing it. Even the mother who wrote the original sensational story ended up saying she was exaggerating a bit. To me its the side of the pendulum between anything goes and total control parenting. Needless to say happiness lies in the middle ground. But sometimes we need a push from an extreme view to get us back to the middle.

 

So I'm glad to see there voices heard.

 

 

Michael

[Enishi]

My thoughts were much the same. Honestly speaking the more I read about stuff like this the more I wonder if spiritually conscious practitioners are more common percentage wise here in the West. Over here we have a number of economic problems that we need to get address, like eliminating the Federal Reserve, but I don't think we should necessarily emulate any Confucian work ethic either.

 

It reminds me of back in 7th grade when they were telling us about how Japan is so much better than the US in terms of education and economic growth and how school is much longer over there. Nowadays however Japan is in a period an economic stagnation and decreasing population.

 

Another thought which I did take away from that article however is that one area where the Chinese mother is better is in terms of consistency. The kids have to prove themselves, rather than her trying to prove herself to her kids and be their friend ala some Western parents.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Enishi

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well schools (and jobs for people fresh out of schools) are ultra competitive these days. If you aren't the best in everything, someone else is. If you are lacking in one area, there is someone else who isn't. That person is going to get your internship, your job, you scholarship, etc. If they have one more activity, or related job/internship than you, they have an edge.

 

Free time spent doing something for yourself could be time put towards doing something you can put on your resume.

 

It's a very practical minded approach.

 

My mother was kind of the same- except she wouldn't make me do work on Friday afternoons or Saturdays. Sunday after 12 noon, however, games and tv turned off and it was time to do school work again.

 

Most of the "tiger mom" stuff applied to my mom as well (except she was white). Funnily enough, she has more in common with all the Asian parents than anybody else Asian moms love my mom.

 

But even with all that work (which I myself consider quite impressive considering all the literal blood, sweat, and tears- yes, academic related issues make you bleed, sweat, and cry), I'm STILL only barely average in this day and age.

 

From my mom's perspective, it's just getting me to the point where I compete. If I choose not to, and instead go off and do some low paying job that I can just barely support myself because I'd rather do something like meditate, that's fine, she doesn't care. But she wanted me to be able to make the CHOICE. To CHOOSE not to do that. Rather than be FORCED to do that because I don't have any other options.

 

Paradoxically enough, though, to even get those options you kinda have to not want to do anything else, 'cause any deviation and it's all over.

 

It's the modern life.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[gendao]

Ahh, the 'tiger' moms. In its pure form its overdoing it. Even the mother who wrote the original sensational story ended up saying she was exaggerating a bit. To me its the side of the pendulum between anything goes and total control parenting. Needless to say happiness lies in the middle ground. But sometimes we need a push from an extreme view to get us back to the middle.

 

So I'm glad to see there voices heard.

I agree. Just remember, this author does not represent all Chinese mothers - she only represents herself as one subset of the Chinese diaspora. I mean, I doubt she can even read/write Chinese and probably doesn't even know what "Daoism" is. So, she is hardly a Chinese spokeswoman. In fact, her life aspirations seem more oriented towards academics and materialism as a means to mainstreeam majority assimilation in the West here.

 

That said, I do agree with some of her points, and disagree with others.

 

Mainly, I agree that the Old World hard work ethic has been replaced in this country by the liberal "feel good" ethos. But, the grasshopper who plays all summer will find himself starving in the winter...which we are seeing now with our national bankruptcy and outsourcing of anything that requires actual work.

 

I don't happen to agree with her personal definitions of success, though. Good grades aren't bad...but they only get you so far in life. Interpersonal skills are incredibly important both professionally and personally - and should not be dismissed. Classical music is irrelevant today and requires no creativity. Meanwhile, she apparently knows nothing of any real Chinee culture (spirituality, health, etc) to pass down to her kids. So, she is basically just raising robotic, obedient, left-brained, mainstream nerds. Not necessarily a bad thing, per se - but just sayin'...

 

If these were boys - they wouldn't get laid until they hit 30 with that background and training!

 

However, ultimately parenting and your own lifestyle boils down to what works best for each individual in their own unique circumstances. There is no "one-size-fits-all" approach. If the author's approach works for some people - great. It would be a mistake to blindly forcefit it where it wouldn't work well, though.. The key is to figure out what works for each unique person and not just be a pushy stage parent.

 

And of course, this whole story has been exagerrated and sensationalized with provocative statements in order to sell more of her books...

Edited March 1, 2011 by vortex

[Sloppy Zhang]

If these were boys - they wouldn't get laid until they hit 30 with that background and training!

 

Some of them don't

 

Actually, it's rather interesting, in both high school and college, all the Asian kids hang out with one another- a ton of Asians I meet know a lot of other Asians in the community. Maybe it's the shared culture thing, maybe it's the shared value thing- hard working students reinforcing other hard working students.

 

Like hanging out in high school with some of my white friends, they'd be like, "oh man, that test was so hard, I'm so glad I got a B. I barely studied, I definitely guess well."

 

And my asian friends would be like, "you got a B.... and you're.... okay with that?????"

 

So you hang out with people who've got the same kind of work ethic as you do. So guys and girls of similar backgrounds do get together that way.

 

I have a friend (Chinese) who's got a theory about how you can tell what generation Asian immigrant someone is by how they look and work. He says that by 3rd generation, you're basically white- stupid, fat, and don't work.

 

Anyway, it's definitely a very interesting community dynamic, imho.

[-O-]

I think a misconception in our culture (western) is that feeling good about yourself is good esteem. So we pander after our kids making sure they never feel badly... IMO self-esteem is born of accomplishment. The more a child knows how to do things for themself the more trust in their own ability they have and that self-knowledge leads to proper esteem.

 

Let's face it children's esteem are pretty flawless. They believe they can do anything because they have no concept of what it takes... then later in life they hold onto the idea of "I can be president" while skipping school etc.... because they have been taught to disconnect ability from reality, all in the name of good self-esteem.

Edited March 1, 2011 by -O-

[dawei]

I agree. Just remember, this author does not represent all Chinese mothers - she only represents herself as one subset of the Chinese diaspora. I mean, I doubt she can even read/write Chinese and probably doesn't even know what "Daoism" is. So, she is hardly a Chinese spokeswoman. In fact, her life aspirations seem more oriented towards academics and materialism as a means to mainstreeam majority assimilation in the West here.

How much time have you spent in china or living among chinese?

 

I will say that in my 11 trips to china over 6 years, and living with chinese in the US and in China... I find her voice representative. I would say that there are deep culture differences which makes it work for them and why it does not work for westerners. It would take too much explaining to do but she seems to articulate much of it well. The idea of "knowing Daoism" is another western conceit. Westerners want to talk it and claim to know it; Chinese live it. There are connections they make more fundamental: Thinking and doing; saying and doing; hearing and doing. knowing and doing. You can see the common denominator is "doing" as important. Reminds me of DDJ chapter 23 opening line. IMO, "knowing" is a card so overplayed by the west.

[gendao]

Sloppy & O - points well taken..

How much time have you spent in china or living among chinese?

 

I will say that in my 11 trips to china over 6 years, and living with chinese in the US and in China... I find her voice representative. I would say that there are deep culture differences which makes it work for them and why it does not work for westerners. It would take too much explaining to do but she seems to articulate much of it well. The idea of "knowing Daoism" is another western conceit. Westerners want to talk it and claim to know it; Chinese live it. There are connections they make more fundamental: Thinking and doing; saying and doing; hearing and doing. knowing and doing. You can see the common denominator is "doing" as important. Reminds me of DDJ chapter 23 opening line. IMO, "knowing" is a card so overplayed by the west.

Are you Chinese with a Chinese mother?

 

I am...and have been to China multiple times as well..

 

Again, I would agree with her about the stronger work ethic in Chinese culture. However, I think her story is also a severe case that is outside the norm. I mean, no playdates or being in school plays? No computer games? Asian kids are actually known for being avid gamers. So yes, I think she's more on the extreme end here.

 

Of course, "normal" stories about slighter differences don't sell - so that's why stories like hers blip up on the radar to begin with..

 

Life is also full of trade-offs and I think she has some blind spots because as a woman, she gets less stigmatized by certain issues (like the type that Non speaks of) that she is inducing with her chosen measures of success.

 

The downside to overfocusing on left-brain academics and societal gold stars is that you may stunt your own individuality and social development. Life is more than just about grades, professional accolades and career advancement for some people. Perhaps women like her may value wealth & status more...but everyone's definition of success is very subjective. For instance, being a nerd can severely impede a male's romantic connections (as Sloppy probably has noticed amongst his Asian male buds). So, there are some definite serious drawbacks here to this type of narrow tunnel vision.

 

And I am talking about PRACTICING Daoism. As in neidan, qigong, healing, feng shui, IMA, etc. You really think this author "lives" qi? Lol, c'mon man. Chinese don't naturally practice any of these arts simply by virtue of being Chinese. If you really believe that - then go ask a random Chinese person for some qi healing the next time you see one!

Edited March 1, 2011 by vortex