[TTC Study] Chapter 27 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[Mr. T]

my only comment on this chapter would be that on the other forum that i participate in, we had a really interesting discussion of knots and ropes...both in their historical, contemporary, and spiritual meanings. i wish i could reproduce it here, but the lines about good knots needing no ropes was one of the seeds of that discussion. that stuff is pretty deep and great food for thought. have a good one, e'rybody!

[Marblehead]

Yeah. Sometimes there has to be a good question to start a good discussion.

 

But I really do like the thought of walking without leaving tracks. The invisible man.

[thelerner]

I find this interesting-

'What is a bad man?

A good man's charge. '

 

I'm reminded of a reputed answer that the founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba gave to a Western student when asked 'What is the relationship between attacked and attacker?' He is said to reply 'It is as parent to child'.

 

Ofcourse that is the reply of the older mystical man, not the younger man who once said his 'real' art is death.

 

Still in conflict, instead of seeing the opposing force as the enemy, they are..your child, your responsibility, someone to be guided. To me its a more generous mindset then 'turn the other cheek'. Both philosophies are hard to put into action.

[Marblehead]

I find this interesting-

'What is a bad man?

A good man's charge. '

 

I'm reminded of a reputed answer that the founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba gave to a Western student when asked 'What is the relationship between attacked and attacker?' He is said to reply 'It is as parent to child'.

 

Ofcourse that is the reply of the older mystical man, not the younger man who once said his 'real' art is death.

 

Still in conflict, instead of seeing the opposing force as the enemy, they are..your child, your responsibility, someone to be guided. To me its a more generous mindset then 'turn the other cheek'. Both philosophies are hard to put into action.

 

Yes, and the lessons to the bad man are not always gentle lessons.

 

It has been said that the bad man is the raw material for the good man. That is, with proper training the bad man can become the good man.

 

I sometimes have a hard time dealing with this concept because I believe that there are some who do not wish to be a good man therefore regardless of the quality of training the bad man will always be a bad man.

 

Of course, I sometimes even argue with myself on this concept because I believe that B F Skinners understandings of behavior modification are on target. So perhaps the quality AND density of training could mold any bad man into a good man.

 

And too I have had to reject people out of my life because they refused to act in an acceptable manner and I just didn't have the time to try to guide them into a set of behaviors that was acceptable to me. (And there I go, placing my expectations on others.)

[dawei]

It has been said that the bad man is the raw material for the good man. That is, with proper training the bad man can become the good man.

 

I sometimes have a hard time dealing with this concept because I believe that there are some who do not wish to be a good man therefore regardless of the quality of training the bad man will always be a bad man.

I am not sure if your saying that this is one interpretation of the passage; to make bad men good? I don't think that is what LZ cares about. See opening lines of chapter 62. It's all about Dao, whether good or bad. He only takes their distinction as a metaphor for roles or tasks one serves in life: teacher and student.

[manitou]

GOOD walking leaves no track behind it;

Good speech leaves no mark to be picked at;

Good calculation makes no use of counting-slips;

Good shutting makes no use of bolt and bar,

And yet nobody can undo it;

Good tying makes no use of rope and knot,

And yet nobody can untie it.

 

I guess if you were really to put this in today's terms, they never see the Sage coming or going. As he is intrinsically aligned with the principles of nature, there is no cosmic or emotional friction to leave tracks. I think this is the metaphor here.

 

I think the reference to the well tied knots and the perfectly locked door that has no hardware, this is a metaphor to wu-wei. Once the principal of non-action is comprehended and put to use, combined with a loving and humble heart, the forward momentum is then airtight, magically, as if all happening on its own. The results will be perfect. Getting down to the Source, the Intelligence - this is the first requirement for wu-wei understanding, and this is an internal journey. Many different paths, same journey.

 

Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men,

And therefore nobody is abandoned;

Always good at saving things,

And therefore nothing is wasted.

This is called "following the guidance of the Inner Light."

 

The Sage, being an enlightened one, sees into souls. This is why he is good at saving men; he sees where a man, no matter how outwardly horrible he appears in character, has an equal amount of good; it is this the Sage chooses to focus upon. He has transcended the temptation for comparison or judgment; he chooses to see the shine rather than the shadow in everyone he sees; compare this to Castaneda seeing the energy bodies of people. Same journey, different path again. This is why nothing is wasted. Although the concept of 'following the guidance of the Inner Light', seems correct, it doesn't seem quite pertinent enough for the rest of the paragraph, to me. I sort of prefer other translations that refer to this as 'Bending the Light', this process of using what is redeemable in men. We bend the light because this very action starts forward a dynamic in that other human being that sends them more toward the light than they were going previously. It is planting a seed of sorts that tends toward the sun by nature.

 

Never having had a teacher or been a charge, I'm out of place saying anything aobut that; seems like everybody else has the later lines covered wonderfully.

Edited March 8, 2011 by manitou

[dawei]

Hence, the Sage is always good at saving men,

And therefore nobody is abandoned;

Always good at saving things,

And therefore nothing is wasted.

This is called "following the guidance of the Inner Light."

 

The Sage, being an enlightened one, sees into souls. This is why he is good at saving men; he sees where a man, no matter how outwardly horrible he appears in character, has an equal amount of good; it is this the Sage chooses to focus upon. He has transcended the temptation for comparison or judgment; he chooses to see the shine rather than the shadow in everyone he sees; compare this to Castaneda seeing the energy bodies of people. Same journey, different path again. This is why nothing is wasted. Although the concept of 'following the guidance of the Inner Light', seems correct, it doesn't seem quite pertinent enough for the rest of the paragraph, to me. I sort of prefer other translations that refer to this as 'Bending the Light', this process of using what is redeemable in men. We bend the light because this very action starts forward a dynamic in that other human being that sends them more toward the light than they were going previously. It is planting a seed of sorts that tends toward the sun by nature.

I like everything you said but this one comment: "it doesn't seem quite pertinent enough for the rest of the paragraph, to me."

 

I want to know what exactly is the 'rest of the paragraph' before commenting.

[Procurator]

I like everything you said but this one comment: "it doesn't seem quite pertinent enough for the rest of the paragraph, to me."

 

I want to know what exactly is the 'rest of the paragraph' before commenting.

manitou is correct pointing out the pertinency issue. as usual the whole paragraph is translated without any regard to pertinency.

 

becouse, what is the connection between 1. no knots.2 saving all men. 3 inner light

 

its a disjointed par for the course.

[dawei]

This is one of those chapters with enough differences between manuscripts to keep us guessing. For example: Hendricks did not typo when he wrote, "Therefore the good man is the teacher of the good", while the rest have "teacher of bad men". The oldest text do not have 'bad'. Also and which interests me more is the one line that Manitou mentions of the 'inner light', in various text as:

 

是胃申明 - MWD A

shi wei shen ming

是胃曳明 - MWD B

shi wei ye ming

是謂襲明 - Wang Bi, Heshang Gong and Fu Yi

shi wei xi ming

 

I can't see how Hendricks comes up with Doubly Bright except that the modern 'xi' carries the gloss of 'double' and therefore he must gloss the older text (which he translates) as the equivalent of the newer text.

 

My gut would say that the oldest text is more correct with 'shen', but this is maybe an ancient gloss for 'spirit' or 'divine essence' from another 'shen' (神), note right side of character.

[Marblehead]

I am not sure if your saying that this is one interpretation of the passage; to make bad men good? I don't think that is what LZ cares about. See opening lines of chapter 62. It's all about Dao, whether good or bad. He only takes their distinction as a metaphor for roles or tasks one serves in life: teacher and student.

 

Yes, that is one of my points. The Sage is not out to change the world. The Sage, IMO, teaches us to observe reality, accept it for what it is, and do what is best to ensure long life for his/herself and others they come into contact with.

 

Yes, to be beyond the concepts of good/bad is the ideal. But we still need make distinctions, in 'real' life, don't we?

[Procurator]

... Also and which interests me more is the one line that Manitou mentions of the 'inner light', in various text as:

 

是胃申明 - MWD A

shi wei shen ming

是胃曳明 - MWD B

shi wei ye ming

是謂襲明 - Wang Bi, Heshang Gong and Fu Yi

shi wei xi ming

 

I can't see how Hendricks comes up with Doubly Bright except that the modern 'xi' carries the gloss of 'double' and therefore he must gloss the older text (which he translates) as the equivalent of the newer text.

...

nah, he is confused

 

To carry on without change: 因襲，沿襲 carry on (old custom, etc.);

 

To trace: 曳光彈 [yi4guang1dan4]↓.

 

申明 [shen1ming2], v.t., to make clear, declare (reason for visit, etc.).

 

the common meaning is carry on wisdom

[Marblehead]

I can't see how Hendricks comes up with Doubly Bright except that the modern 'xi' carries the gloss of 'double' and therefore he must gloss the older text (which he translates) as the equivalent of the newer text.

 

There was nothing in the Guodian strips pertaining to Chapter 27 so the translation by Henricks above still stands.

 

And to add to the confusion, Wayne Wang presents the following equivalent to Henricks' lines 9 and 10:

 

Therefore, a master is a teacher for other masters.

A non-master is where a master can learn from.

 

No mention of good/bad.

[manitou]

 

Yes, to be beyond the concepts of good/bad is the ideal. But we still need make distinctions, in 'real' life, don't we?

 

 

This is the enigma, as I see it. I think the Sage will try his best to have 'real' life align with the theoretical life of his understanding of the Tao. They are one and the same, in actuality. We are manifesting from the inside out...we ARE the Sage, if only we knew it. We find out by getting rid of inner obstacles that prevent us from seeing and being The Sage. No, the Sage isn't out to change the world. He IS the change the world needs, and the ripples extend from him because that's the nature of how it works. If the Sage is out there trying to change anything, it's because he's not a Sage yet. The Sage will wait until the situaiton or problem is brought to him; that's when he lets the chips fall to see the situation as it really exists. Hence the onset of wu-wei.

 

Do you sometimes See that our consciousness (and others like us) seems to be holding this whole thing together? Those in the upper echalons of thought bring together a ring of mutual consciousness, an agreement of reality, that seems to hold the framework in place. We are the small concentric circle at the top of the globe, the Arctic circle of thought, if you will. The sheep seem to hang out at the Equator, and varying degrees higher and lower. The reality of the Equator-dwellers is what we see on the news, what happens to people day by day. The Sage is capable of Seeing behind the 'real' (which isn't really real anyway) to see the Idea behind. The trend is up toward the light, always. This is hardwired into us, although certainly it can be intentionally covered up with ego and repeated destructive habits and thought patterns. WE are the change that we need to make - not to change anyone else. That will happen on its own just by our own presence and our own examples. Our ripples extend over the entire globe; particularly our ripples that are beset with Intent. We are Magic, if only we knew it.

 

My only thought as far as following the Inner Light is that it seems to be a bit trite and redundant to say about the Sage at this point in the tome. I just think it's referring more to Bending the Light, which is our outward dynamic as we apply it to others. We aren't 'changing' others, but the light is bent by the slightest word said at just the right moment; a word that the Sage knows will plant a seed and the moment is right for it to grow. This can be analogized to when the Nazarene (IMO a powerful shaman) told the story of the seed landing on rocky ground vs. fertilized soil.

 

On the other hand, I could be all wet.

Edited March 8, 2011 by manitou

[dawei]

Do you sometimes See that our consciousness (and others like us) seems to be holding this whole thing together? Those in the upper echalons of thought bring together a ring of mutual consciousness, an agreement of reality, that seems to hold the framework in place.

Yes

 

My only thought as far as following the Inner Light is that it seems to be a bit trite and redundant to say about the Sage at this point in the tome.

I have had the same thought about the use of "good" (for Shan, 善).

[dawei]

the common meaning is carry on wisdom

So it seems that 'embody wisdom' may be an apt way to describe the 'carrying on' of the sage.

[Marblehead]

On the other hand, I could be all wet.

 

It's a wonder I'm not as I have been working at the fish pond all day today.

 

Fair what you said though. And I agree, the Sage is not out to change the world. He/she is the change the world needs. Sad though that so few listen.

[Procurator]

27

 

善行無轍迹，good riding means not following beaten path

善言無瑕讁；good speech means not assigning blame

善數不用籌策；good counting means not using counting chips

善閉無關楗而不可開，good lock means no obvious bolts but is impossible to unlock

善結無繩約而不可解。good knot means no obvious knots but is impossible to untie.

是以聖人 similarly to above, the wise men

常善救人，故無棄人；are always good at saving and husbanding people that is why they do not discard any

常善救物，故無棄物。are always good at saving and husbanding things, that is why they do not discard any

是謂襲明。it is called carrying out wisdom.

 

(MWD

故善人，善人之師；So, those that are good - those are led by the wise ones

不善人，善人之資也。those that are not good - those are husbanded by the wise ones

不貴其師，不愛其資，雖知乎大迷，是胃眇要。

The wise ones do not value the led ones, do not love husbanded ones, they just know that leading and husbanding is one big scheme, which is the most wondrous for governing.

 

Meaning of the chapter: while bad people lack in good qualities as are unpicable locks and untieable knots, the latter are however supremely useful so the bad people must be also useful for something.

 

So the good/obedient ones are led, not good/obedient ones are husbanded like so much cattle. Both of them have their uses.

 

But the most Important thing is for the sage not to get attached to either category in the grand scheme of supreme good.

[Marblehead]

Nice translation.

 

But the most Important thing is for the sage not to get attached to either category in the grand scheme of supreme good.

 

To this, I think the bolded part is the only important aspect. I have no idea what the 'grand scheme of supreme good' is.

 

I enjoyed your inclusion of the word "obvious".

 

However, the label "not good" is just another way of saying "bad" when comparing against the "good". (Yeah, I still have a problem with this but it is a personal thing.)

[Procurator]

 

 

However, the label "not good" is just another way of saying "bad" when comparing against the "good". (Yeah, I still have a problem with this but it is a personal thing.)

heh:)) notice if you will that "good" in chinese is "obedient" . only obedient ones are good. what do u make of this?

[Marblehead]

heh:)) notice if you will that "good" in chinese is "obedient" . only obedient ones are good. what do u make of this?

 

WoW! What a question!

 

I suppose it depends on what we are expected to be obedient to. So many different levels here.

 

To be obedient to one's Self (one's true nature) I suppose would be at the top. Now, this doesn't mean that we should be disobedient to the king and lose our life in the process because, IMO, survival is up there at the top as well.

 

So based solely on this concept there would be no "good/bad" and if one were being true to their Self they would always be obedient.

 

However, when we start placing any one's rule above another's we encounter problems. Is the king more important than I am? If I deny the king's dictates and follow my own am I being disobedient?

 

I think that perhaps this is why Chuang Tzu told his story about the king's ministers coming to him and offering him a position at the king's court while he was fishing and told the ministers to leave him alone so that he could drag his tail in the mud. If we have only ourself to be obedient to we can create a condition where we will always be obedient. (No inner conflict.)

 

And this applies to everyone therefore eliminating any concept of being disobedient (bad).

[dawei]

So the good/obedient ones are led, not good/obedient ones are husbanded like so much cattle. Both of them have their uses.

 

But the most Important thing is for the sage not to get attached to either category in the grand scheme of supreme good.

I am glad you made that clarification on 'good'. There was something missing in the use of just 'good' and this captures it well. For chinese, thought and action are linked.

 

As to your 'grand scheme of supreme good'. Is this a reference or likening to, 志一天？

[manitou]

Tian Shi - I LOVE your interpretation of these verses.

 

As to obedience, my view is that until people learn to truly think for themselves after the inner work has been done, it is necessary for the student to be obedient to the master. For those of us who had no masters, we were obedient to 'something'. I was obedient to the 12 steps of AA; that was my training ground as to the inner work; that started the dynamic 30 years ago, it continues to this day. I still remain obedient to the steps in a sense, i.e. always looking for the part I've played in anything that happens, being willing to see my shortcomings.

 

But at some point in time there is no need for obedience any more. We know that the answers are within and that is what we are 'obedient' to, if you look at it that way. We then try to be true to ourselves, where the inner voice lies - once we have the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it. I think Marbles put his finger on it, although I'm guessing his finger smells a bit fishy right now because he's been working on his fish pond for the past few days.

[Marblehead]

I think Marbles put his finger on it, although I'm guessing his finger smells a bit fishy right now because he's been working on his fish pond for the past few days.

 

I saw that. Hehehe. Actually my finger smells like paint as I am resealing and painting one section of one of the ponds.

[dawei]

But at some point in time there is no need for obedience any more. We know that the answers are within and that is what we are 'obedient' to, if you look at it that way. We then try to be true to ourselves, where the inner voice lies - once we have the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it.

Yes, I think that is the point and why I replace the word "obedient" with the connection between 'thinking and doing'. Obedience is what you've choosen to follow (or do). In chinese, thinking and doing are inseparable. Consider the word "Xin" usually translated as 'heart'; it is more properly 'heart-mind' in classical chinese and in modern day it simply lives out that out too. In the west, we tend to separate the two facilities and so we are "all words and no action". There are many of these kinds of connections which exist in the east we don't hold in the west.