Mongols Conquer Europe in 1241!

[Encephalon]

[Dainin]

Sounds like it would make for a very cool, interesting novel and/or movie. You may want to check out some of Peter Kingsley's stuff. It's sort of speculative history on how the Mongols and Tibetans may have influenced ancient Greece, and therefore Western civilization subsequently.

 

I've always thought that the beginnings of Tibetan medicine would make for a good novel or movie also. Supposedly in ancient times, the ruler of Tibet summoned doctors from many different cultures to some kind of medical conference, which led to the development of their medical system. So a number of different travel narratives could be woven together, along with the concepts of traditional medical systems. You could have ayurvedics coming from India, shamans from Siberia, Classical Chinese, Persians, etc. and getting into all sorts of adventures on their way to Tibet.

[de_paradise]

At first blush, I thought it would be sticky because you would have the choice of painting the Buddhist influence in a positive light to the detriment of Christianity, or a negative light as foreign despots stifle creativity capitalism and progress. What a mire.

 

But then I think if you do something that is allegorical to the coming greater influence of China, this would be kind of easier to thresh out, and the overally message would be clearer.

[Friend]

Edited November 16, 2011 by Friend

[Encephalon]

At first blush, I thought it would be sticky because you would have the choice of painting the Buddhist influence in a positive light to the detriment of Christianity, or a negative light as foreign despots stifle creativity capitalism and progress. What a mire.

 

But then I think if you do something that is allegorical to the coming greater influence of China, this would be kind of easier to thresh out, and the overally message would be clearer.

 

Are you saying that there is a correlation between christianity and creativity, capitalism, and progress, while Buddhism would threaten these conditions?

[de_paradise]

Indeed, the classic is "Religion and the rise of Capitalism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._H._Tawney

 

I got to think that mid age Europe not fertile ground for Buddhism, except at very base levels, superstions and burning incense. Where true spirituality could expand in Europe, such as the Cathars and Gnostics were squelched by hegemonic power brokers, the Catholic Church. What if any of those had been allowed to expand, and alchemy not hidden to the masses?

Edited March 6, 2011 by de_paradise

[Encephalon]

Indeed, the classic is "Religion and the rise of Capitalism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._H._Tawney

 

I got to think that mid age Europe not fertile ground for Buddhism, except at very base levels, superstions and burning incense. Where true spirituality could expand in Europe, such as the Cathars and Gnostics were squelched by hegemonic power brokers, the Catholic Church. What if any of those had been allowed to expand, and alchemy not hidden to the masses?

 

I must confess that your English far surpasses my (nonexistent)Chinese,and that I never read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism." But I have this notion, perhaps ill-conceived, that capitalism may have very well evolved outside of a Calvinist culture, and that it could have even become less predatory and more subservient to the needs of people, rather than what we have today, where social relations are imbedded within economic relations. That's a romantic notion, I admit, but I can't imagine a global economic system that is worse than the one we have today.

[gendao]

[-O-]

Since TTBums seem to be a creative and speculative bunch, I would like to solicit some ideas for a fiction project.

 

As some of you history buffs know, it is thought that if Ghengis Khan's third son Ogedei had not died in battle in 1241 he would have conquered Europe and brought it under the control of the Mongol Empire. European Christianity would then evolve alongside shamanism and Buddhism. What kind of world would we be living in if this had come about?

 

I'll credit all of you when I accept my Oscar.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Eastern religions have always been very good at "absorbing" the ideas and icons of other religions when they move into those areas.... for instance in Northern India and Nepal there isn't a big distinction between Budhism and Hinduism - they pray at each others temples etc... and Buddha is considered to be one of the 5 Vajrasatvas - but so is Jesus...

 

There are some who think Early Christian teaching have seeds in the east as well,,, that Christs "lost year" were actually spent traveling thorugh the east as far as southern tibet and the resurection is actually him executing the Rainbow body....

 

Anyway - might be an interesting twist is to play with what a "hybrid" religion or sect would look like considering these things....

[de_paradise]

Sorry to be the critical one here. But, alongside obviously pissing off the Christian market, you have a thematic problem. Suppose in the film Independence Day, the Aliens won, slaughtered a large portion of the population of humans in a cruel and vicious way, but eventually we fell in line. And the peace that ensued from our foreign overlords, spirituality was allowed a certain amount of freedom to flourish, and the Aliens introduced some style of religion that was more about tolerance. Everyone benefits and happy.

 

So contrary to the popular "fight over foreign tyranny" theme you want flip it to, "the benefits if we became subjects to foreign despots" Is this what you want to say?

 

Then theres the allegorical angle, that everyone would see the mongols as the modern day Chinese who are taking over business around the world and gaining all sorts of influence. If you try to paint this in a good light, you are again suggesting that Chinese are nothing but benevolent spreaders of harmony and good food. But in reality they are mercantilist and centrally controlled, and many westerners have big problem with their spread of influence.

[de_paradise]

As long as were on the subject of movie scripts, what I would like to see is siddhis done right, without always the requisite negativity that hollywood puts on powers. Say some spiritual commune hidden in the mountains all through lots of effort start to have siddhis, and because they are compassionate, go to the world and start to do good things. No CIA, no Xfiles or turning to the dark side, no murders, but perhaps a love story.

[Encephalon]

Sorry to be the critical one here. But, alongside obviously pissing off the Christian market, you have a thematic problem. Suppose in the film Independence Day, the Aliens won, slaughtered a large portion of the population of humans in a cruel and vicious way, but eventually we fell in line. And the peace that ensued from our foreign overlords, spirituality was allowed a certain amount of freedom to flourish, and the Aliens introduced some style of religion that was more about tolerance. Everyone benefits and happy.

 

So contrary to the popular "fight over foreign tyranny" theme you want flip it to, "the benefits if we became subjects to foreign despots" Is this what you want to say?

 

Then theres the allegorical angle, that everyone would see the mongols as the modern day Chinese who are taking over business around the world and gaining all sorts of influence. If you try to paint this in a good light, you are again suggesting that Chinese are nothing but benevolent spreaders of harmony and good food. But in reality they are mercantilist and centrally controlled, and many westerners have big problem with their spread of influence.

 

I have no idea who you're criticizing, who you're mad at (the Chinese?), or what you're talking about...

and that's the way I want to keep it.

[de_paradise]

Not mad at anyone, thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about the idea since I love fiction and also history. But if its worthless or incomprehensible to you then so be it, dude.

[The Observer]

Since TTBums seem to be a creative and speculative bunch, I would like to solicit some ideas for a fiction project.

 

As some of you history buffs know, it is thought that if Ghengis Khan’s third son Ogedei had not died in battle in 1241 he would have conquered Europe and brought it under the control of the Mongol Empire. European Christianity would then evolve alongside shamanism and Buddhism. What kind of world would we be living in if this had come about?

 

I’ll credit all of you when I accept my Oscar.

Thanks in advance.

It's just as probable that Ogedei's death may have saved the Mongols from over extending themselves in Western Europe. The Mongols light cavalry tactics may have had a hard time dealing with the heavy forests and innumerable castles in medieval Germany (+ Western Europe). Then again rough environments didn't stop them from conquering Southern China....

 

Assuming a total victory on the part of the Mongols, it may well have been very bloody (supposedly their conquest of Russia was a virtual holocaust and set Russian civilization back centuries; same could be said for what they did to Islamic civilization in Persia and the Fertile Crescent). And who's to say a hypothetical "Western Khan" doesn't just assume Charlemagne's mantel and convert to Christianity? He may even have his own Inquisition....The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Edited March 7, 2011 by The Observer