Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues

[Mark Saltveit]

So as western students the choices are before us:

 

Do we fully subscribe to the Taoist orthodoxy?

 

Do we follow the Western academic views of Taoism?

 

Or do we say, "Stuff you guys, we will just do whatever we want and call it what we please"?

 

Or do we find inspiration from both the pre-Taoist indigenous world-view and Taoist orthodoxy and blaze new trails of culture and spiritual understanding?

 

 

It's wonderful to respect indigenous culture and the continuing living traditions of Daoism -- they have a lot to teach us (if they are willing to do so.) However, no one that I know feels any reticence to pursue Buddhism, Christianity or Hinduism on their own initiative, without worrying about what academics or the indigenous orthodox think. I'm not sure why Taoism should be considered any differently.

 

Like any inquiry, it's appropriate to learn as much context as possible, be humble about one's cultural and temporal distance, etc. But as secretive as certain Daoist sects are, the TTC is the second-most translated book in the history of the world, so it's not exactly a big honkin secret. I just can't understand why Chuang Tzu isn't better known.

[Stigweard]

Like any inquiry, it's appropriate to learn as much context as possible, be humble about one's cultural and temporal distance, etc. But as secretive as certain Daoist sects are, the TTC is the second-most translated book in the history of the world, so it's not exactly a big honkin secret. I just can't understand why Chuang Tzu isn't better known.

And even lesser known are the more "closed door" texts:

 

* Daozang / Tao Zhang 道藏

* Shenzi / Shen Tzu 慎子

* Liezi / Lieh Tzu 列子

* Wenzi / Wen Tzu 文子

* Baopuzi / Pao Pu Tzu 抱朴子

* Guanzi / Kuan Tzu 管子

* Neiye / Nei Yeh 內業

* Huainanzi / Huai-nan Tzu 淮南子

* Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經

* Tai Hsi Ching

 

My emphasis here is that, whilst Laozi and Zhuangzi are central texts, they are not the be all and end all of the Daoist tradition.

[Mark Saltveit]

And even lesser known are the more "closed door" texts:

 

* Daozang / Tao Zhang 道藏

* Shenzi / Shen Tzu 慎子

* Liezi / Lieh Tzu 列子

* Wenzi / Wen Tzu 文子

* Baopuzi / Pao Pu Tzu 抱朴子

* Guanzi / Kuan Tzu 管子

* Neiye / Nei Yeh 內業

* Huainanzi / Huai-nan Tzu 淮南子

* Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經

* Tai Hsi Ching

 

My emphasis here is that, whilst Laozi and Zhuangzi are central texts, they are not the be all and end all of the Daoist tradition.

 

True enough. There is less consensus about many of these other works though; the Daozang is 800 years younger than those two at best, and our received version a thousand years younger still. I'm not sure the Neiye is fully accepted by all as canonical Daoism, as opposed to a key precursor; much less the entire Guanzi, etc. (but I'm no expert.)

 

Those two aren't the end all and be all, but they are the universally accepted foundational documents. There are literally thousands of documents that could be studied, but there's a certain sense of diminishing returns after a while.

 

Interestingly, Chad Hansen emphasises the Chuang Tzu as more important to Daoism than the Dao de Jing (as I read him), and other works (eg of the Naming School) as perhaps closer to it than the DDJ.

[Marblehead]

I just can't understand why Chuang Tzu isn't better known.

 

I am doing my best to correct this.

[Stigweard]

I am doing my best to correct this.

 

And you are doing a damn fine job of it !!!

 

[al.]

 

 

Or do we find inspiration from both the pre-Taoist indigenous world-view and Taoist orthodoxy and blaze new trails of culture and spiritual understanding?

 

 

That's the spirit!

 

Have you heard of this guy- Bradford Hatcher? Very intelligent and in touch.

His writings about YiJing studies and his translation are very interesting- check em out-

My link

 

One of the important points he raises is the importance of CONTEXT when looking at old texts... Who wrote them and who were they written for? Can we really relate with what kind of thinking these texts were written from--- Look at the difference in language structures, the chinese language still being in a stage of flux, still very much pictorial. Can this be adequately translated into our entirely different language? (and with all our own funky language conditionings!)

 

We also need to consider the culture that these texts were written in- most/all were not written for the common man, but for the educated circles that spiral out from around the emperor... and what of the book burning? and the reliability of those who held these texts to memory? (similar in time to Jesus' words)

 

I'm mostly reiterating some of what's written about in the link, but it seems to me important when considering what Daoism is in the West, cos it ain't what it was in the East 5000 years ago.

Hence the trailblazing- hats off to you sire!

[Marblehead]

And you are doing a damn fine job of it !!!

 

 

Thanks buddy!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Tao Te Ching is brilliantly crafted, having the cadence and form of prose, the efficacy of an epiphany, and a practical simplicity.. while Chuang Tsu is like listening to Garrison Keillor trying to make a point, the 'point' is lost in the story, but you still 'get it'.. i favor both.

 

I sense Tao.. in the silence between sounds, when i'm neither here nor there.. i spent much time studying Taoist 'thought', only to understand that as soon as you start practicing it, you stop living it..

 

I am most fond of a particular understanding of 'Tao': The word 'Tao' was used to avoid 'names' that might be formalized into beliefs, it simply means the 'way'.. from which i have come to understand Tao as, the 'way' things are.. so elegantly simple, such complicated relationships.. my later years are spent admiring the intricate relationships that are Life..

 

I am so grateful for Bums like Stigweard, they make my study of the relationships that are Life both easy and profound.. i am content, now, to be present for the experience.. to listen, adhere, and follow, not insisting nor resisting, feeling the essence as it manifests in real-time, integrating 'with it'.. i am also grateful for Marblehead, the occasional feedback giving me hope that i'm not as weird as i am..

 

Be well..

[Stigweard]

Greetings..

 

Tao Te Ching is brilliantly crafted, having the cadence and form of prose, the efficacy of an epiphany, and a practical simplicity.. while Chuang Tsu is like listening to Garrison Keillor trying to make a point, the 'point' is lost in the story, but you still 'get it'.. i favor both.

 

I sense Tao.. in the silence between sounds, when i'm neither here nor there.. i spent much time studying Taoist 'thought', only to understand that as soon as you start practicing it, you stop living it..

 

I am most fond of a particular understanding of 'Tao': The word 'Tao' was used to avoid 'names' that might be formalized into beliefs, it simply means the 'way'.. from which i have come to understand Tao as, the 'way' things are.. so elegantly simple, such complicated relationships.. my later years are spent admiring the intricate relationships that are Life..

 

I am so grateful for Bums like Stigweard, they make my study of the relationships that are Life both easy and profound.. i am content, now, to be present for the experience.. to listen, adhere, and follow, not insisting nor resisting, feeling the essence as it manifests in real-time, integrating 'with it'.. i am also grateful for Marblehead, the occasional feedback giving me hope that i'm not as weird as i am..

 

Be well..

 

Your energy feels different, like you have had a recent "interesting" journey. Good to hear from you.

 

[Marblehead]

... i am also grateful for Marblehead, the occasional feedback giving me hope that i'm not as weird as i am..

 

Be well..

 

I enjoy exchanging thoughts with you. I sometimes wish there were more but I do understand that what is is the way it is supposed to be.

[manitou]

i am also grateful for Marblehead, the occasional feedback giving me hope that i'm not as weird as i am..

 

 

I feel the same sense of gratitude after Marbles posts. I feel smugly normal.....

[Everything]

If you jump on that forum and say: “This is what Taoism is”, you will have a dozen quasi-credible arguments that say it is something else.

Taoism is a word created by the human species within the milkyway galaxy for communication purposes and holds value and meaning that is relative to every conscious being or thing within any specificly imagined boundary, including the individual.

 

Let the quasi-credible counter argumentation begin!

Edited March 15, 2011 by Everything

[Marblehead]

Taoism is a word created by the human species within the milkyway galaxy for communication purposes and holds value and meaning that is relative to every conscious being or thing within any specificly imagined boundary, including the individual.

 

Let the quasi-credible counter argumentation begin!

 

Whenever I comment about Taoism I always try to remember to specify "Philosophical Taoism". I cannot speak to any of the other schools of Taoism.

 

I also rarely use "tao" as a noun. That leads to lands that are prone to earthquakes.

 

"The Way" is so much easier to speak to and it has everyday application in living our life.

[zerostao]

Taoism is a word created by the human species within the milkyway galaxy for communication purposes and holds value and meaning that is relative to every conscious being or thing within any specificly imagined boundary, including the individual.

 

Let the quasi-credible counter argumentation begin!

this human species is a mammal with opposing thumbs capable of grasping at straws, right?

[Marblehead]

this human species is a mammal with opposing thumbs capable of grasping at straws, right?

 

Hey!!! I like that. I will probably steal it. Hehehe.

[Mark Saltveit]

this human species is a mammal with opposing thumbs capable of grasping at straws, right?

 

And twiddling them. Also hitchiking, but I digress.

[zerostao]

And twiddling them. Also hitchiking, but I digress.

i have twiddled yin and yang. been awhile since i hitch hiked but has been useful.

Marbles, i prefer the word acquire

[Marblehead]

i have twiddled yin and yang. been awhile since i hitch hiked but has been useful.

Marbles, i prefer the word acquire

 

You mean like "I acquired this saying from someone else."?

[zerostao]

Greetings..

 

Tao Te Ching is brilliantly crafted, having the cadence and form of prose, the efficacy of an epiphany, and a practical simplicity.. while Chuang Tsu is like listening to Garrison Keillor trying to make a point, the 'point' is lost in the story, but you still 'get it'.. i favor both.

 

I sense Tao.. in the silence between sounds, when i'm neither here nor there.. i spent much time studying Taoist 'thought', only to understand that as soon as you start practicing it, you stop living it..

 

I am most fond of a particular understanding of 'Tao': The word 'Tao' was used to avoid 'names' that might be formalized into beliefs, it simply means the 'way'.. from which i have come to understand Tao as, the 'way' things are.. so elegantly simple, such complicated relationships.. my later years are spent admiring the intricate relationships that are Life..

 

I am so grateful for Bums like Stigweard, they make my study of the relationships that are Life both easy and profound.. i am content, now, to be present for the experience.. to listen, adhere, and follow, not insisting nor resisting, feeling the essence as it manifests in real-time, integrating 'with it'.. i am also grateful for Marblehead, the occasional feedback giving me hope that i'm not as weird as i am..

 

Be well..

i like these 2 bums as well. your listen/adhere/follow made me take a closer look and you list taijiquan as an interest.if i may ask, do you consider taijiquan to be taoist? i appreciate the avoidence of names and labels and so forth, but this thread is about what is or isnt taoist. i sense you have a good understanding of tao and taijiquan. that is why i asked.

[lazy cloud]

After looking in twinner's What is Tao? thread, I thought maybe a question from there would fit in here on this thread.

Would Western Taoism be similar to Pantheism? Maybe I am not a Taoist in any sense

but I may be a Pantheist who practices Taiji, Qigong, and Kung Fu. Maybe i also read some Taoist philosophy.

[Marblehead]

After looking in twinner's What is Tao? thread, I thought maybe a question from there would fit in here on this thread.

Would Western Taoism be similar to Pantheism? Maybe I am not a Taoist in any sense

but I may be a Pantheist who practices Taiji, Qigong, and Kung Fu. Maybe i also read some Taoist philosophy.

 

I have a good friend on another forum who is a Pantheist. My personal opinion: Yes, Pantheism and Taoism are very compatible. If you were such I think you would be what I have observed Manitou and Twinner to be.

[manitou]

I have a good friend on another forum who is a Pantheist. My personal opinion: Yes, Pantheism and Taoism are very compatible. If you were such I think you would be what I have observed Manitou and Twinner to be.

 

This is what is so wonderful about this forum. Yes, I could just as easily be a pantheist, if I wanted to stick an -ist after my name at all. I often refer to The Tao Bums as the room where all paths meet. Shamans end up here, buddhists, self-realized, we have everything. For me, pantheism just sort of fits in with shamanism as to the oneness with nature thing; but without any sort of duality. Our dogs are four-leggeds. We are two-leggeds. Trees are one-leggeds. It's all the same evolving nature of which we are part.

[Mark Saltveit]

I have a good friend on another forum who is a Pantheist. My personal opinion: Yes, Pantheism and Taoism are very compatible. If you were such I think you would be what I have observed Manitou and Twinner to be.

 

The Carolina Pantheists are the worst team in American football, though.

[Marblehead]

The Carolina Pantheists are the worst team in American football, though.

 

Hehehe. What can I say?

[Stigweard]

Bump ... for fun