Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues

[Stigweard]

[King Kabalabhati]

All these controversies aside, the Tao itself still remains "the Tao that cannot be described".. So let those who are interested go on with the arguments

[Encephalon]

I've been an armchair Buddhist for almost 30 years, and have engaged in Buddhist meditation and serious study for maybe half that time. Buddhism will most likely remain my intellect's philosophy of choice because of the way it organizes psychology, science, environmentalism and social justice issues. "Growth of the heart by way of the mind," to quote the Dalai Lama, resonates strongly with me.

 

On the other hand, I'm coming into what is only my fourth year of Nei Kung practice and my own independent study of Taoism using the 2 dozen books that have been recommended to me by TTBums and others, and I have to say that my 4 years of Taoist personal practice have yielded more progress and growth than three decades of Buddhist study, and I'm sure this is readily attributable to body-mind fusion, the alchemical nature of zhan zhuang. As an American male with a boatload of psychological baggage that comes from a toxic brew of dysfunctional upbringing and deep immersion in the addictive sociopathy of consumer culture, my zhan zhuang, my Nei Kung practice, and the practice of incantations as formulated by Hua-Ching Ni have dissolved much of the self-loathing that I have carried with me and which lies at the heart of the crisis in western culture.

 

When I think of all the millions of men and women incarcerated in America's prison-industrial complex who have been offered free instruction in the practice of Transcendental Meditation, something I once practiced and find of limited value, I can only despair that zhan zhuang has not yet been offered to this population, as I can easily quantify the benefits I have received. To borrow a term from one of our crustier American teacher/practitioners, Gary Clyman, Nei Kung practice increases our "deservingness," our sense of the inherent dignity and worthiness that is the birthright of every human being, and once acquired, wields a powerful healing influence. It's certainly done wonders with my Alkie-Pothead persona.

 

Ultimately, I am confident that some form of Taoism will survive into the deep future as it will be indespensible for the small percentage of human beings who live to see the 22nd century. (According to Ken Wilber and the folks who've formulated the modern social science of Spiral Dynamics, no more than ten percent of the population has ever really grasped some measure present-time awareness, and this has remained constant over time and place.) I see the ten percent of the population who are natually gifted, intelligent, resilient and lucky(!) who will avail themselves of the most effective tools to ensure their survival as the exhaustion of fuel and resources (food) bring modern consumer culture and civilization to an end over the next three decades. Barring a nuclear or biological holocaust, you can bet that surviving populations will be harnessing all dimensions of Taoism, particularly energetics, medicine and self-defense, to survive. I think it's safe to say that the modern Chinese Taoists who recently emigrated from Taiwan and Honk Kong to British Columbia will be doing well long after my fellow Angelinos have been turned into jerky or fertilizer.

 

So I guess this is how I see Taoism surviving: ironically, in small communal units of fiercely independent and self-sufficient individuals, not unlike the ancient Taoist villages that once dotted the Yellow River Valley.

 

Please pardon my obvious streak of romanticism and a somewhat pessimistic forecast.

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[King Kabalabhati]

Hi KK. I think there is a distinction to be made between tao the indescribable mystery, and the outward expression of tao that is in all things (which are quite decsribable), and also Taoism which contains formalized traditions that hold to certain views, principles, and beliefs, and practices in regards to tao the undescribable mystery and all the outward expressions of tao.

 

Hi TWIV, I agree.

[Stigweard]

With all due respect to King Kabalabhati and The Way Is Virtue, I wonder if you can see how your statements are creating an abstract, reified Tao separate from "human affairs"?

 

The three spheres of Taoist ontology are Tian (Heaven), Ren (Human), Di (Earth). The integral wholeness of these three spheres IS Tao. Remove one sphere and what you are talking about is no longer Tao but some conceptual description that only exists in your own superficial thoughts.

 

To even say that we should make "distinctions between" the "indescribable mystery" and the "the outward expression of tao" is to fracture the integral universal unity and, because that fracture is occurring only in your mind, you are also fracturing your own integral wholeness in taking this view.

 

TWIV: LOL you first stated the improbability of Western Taoism and then went on to describe, quite succinctly I may add, how Western Taoism has and is evolving:

 

"...it seems likely that any such Taoist traditions that are passed on to the West will likely be modified to some extent to conform more with Western Culture and Western thinking. However, in my view the underlying core substance of Taoism being a spiritual tradition should remain if it is really to be a form of Taoism."

 

Thanks for that

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Stigweard]

[Aaron]

I coined a description (at least I think I did) that I think differentiates between Taoism as it's practiced in the East and how it's practiced in the West. For me there is Traditional Taoism, which is the various sects that exist in China and Taiwan, then there is Modern Neo-Taoism, which is a form of Taoism practiced primarily by Western Taoists that consists of the philosophical tenants of Taoism, with a focus on the Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu. Most Modern Neo-Taoists do not follow any specific religious ideology, but rather view Taoism as a philosophical school founded by Lao Tzu. Amongst Modern Neo-Taoists can be found practitioners of various Chinese medicinal and martial arts, including Qi-Gong, Feng Shui and Tai Chi Chuan, but it is by no means a defining characteristic.

 

The major difference between Traditional Taoists and Modern Neo-Taoists is that Traditional Taoists follow a practice that includes to varying degrees, deities, spiritual forces, a belief in immortals, and a reverence for ancestors, whereas Modern Neo-Taoists focus on the philosophical aspects of Taoism, primarily Wu-Wei, the Three Jewels, and Tao (which I should add is also present in Traditional Taoism).

 

Anyways, I don't think it's a big deal anymore, but at one time I did. I have dealt with this "you're not a real Taoist because you're white/hispanic/african american/eskimo/etc." and the "you don't understand Taoism because you weren't raised in China/Taiwan" for some time now and I've chocked this mindset up to bigotry and racism. In the end if you want to call yourself a Taoist, then there should be no reason why you can't.

 

Aaron

Edited March 8, 2011 by Twinner

[henro]

I would tend to agree with Twinner as that has been my experience in China and America as well. Modern or neo-taoists, and I would include most western taoists that I have met, studying the philosophical, and cultivation aspects, lay practitioners in China following more of the folk aspects of taoist worship, and then of course monks, nuns, and hermits with all kinds of different practices.

 

 

Taoism it seems is really much more than just individual pieces such as the study of taoist texts, or religious rituals, or self cultivation practices, or divination, or Feng Shui, or healing arts, or martial arts, etc. It is a whole system of spiritual/mental/physical cultivation and spiritual services, and the various individual practices that are included within it are pieces that are part of the traditions that make up Taoism, but the individual pieces themselves are not at all what I personally would see as Taoism however. If someone has studied some Taoist writings, or learned some internal martial arts, or some Feng Shui, or some taoist healing arts or medical qigong, etc., in my mind that most certainly does not necessarily make them a Taoist. However, it is not that uncommon in the West to see poeple who are really just practicing some of the practices that originated from Taoism, or practices that have some claimed connection with Taoism, but seem to see themselves as Taoists, and if they are a teacher may claim to be teaching Taoism.

 

My experience has been quite different. I've visited and stayed on many Taoist mountains, and monasteries, and the variety of practices I've found has been pretty amazing. Some just meditate, and cultivate, others participate in all the worship aspects, and some just take care of the people around them. I wouldn't consider any of these people less of a Taoist simply because they don't practice a complete system.

Edited March 8, 2011 by robmix

[zerostao]

What about this Tao?

Where the individual can attain mastery over fate.

Its principles contain the categories of all that there is.

It molds the scope of all transformations.

These categories are in the minds of men;

everything; all that happens and everything that undergoes transformation.

These must obey laws prescribed by the minds of man.

Not until these categories become operative do things become things.

It enables us to penetrate and understand the movements of the light and the dark,

of life and death, of gods and demons.

This knowledge makes possible the mastery over fate.

Fate can be shaped if its laws are known.

The reason why we can oppose fate is that reality is always conditioned.

These conditions of time and space limit and determine it.

This TAO is not bound by these determinants so it can bring it about

as its own purpose requires.

This tao contains purely spiritual relationships which are so abstract

that they find expression in every framework of reality.

They contain only the tao that underlies events.

All chance contingencies can be shaped according to this tao.

The concious application of these possibilities assures mastery over fate.

[Stigweard]

I would tend to agree with Twinner as that has been my experience in China and America as well. Modern or neo-taoists, and I would include most western taoists that I have met, studying the philosophical, and cultivation aspects, lay practitioners in China following more of the folk aspects of taoist worship, and then of course monks, nuns, and hermits with all kinds of different practices.

 

 

 

 

My experience has been quite different. I've visited and stayed on many Taoist mountains, and monasteries, and the variety of practices I've found has been pretty amazing. Some just meditate, and cultivate, others participate in all the worship aspects, and some just take care of the people around them. I wouldn't consider any of these people less of a Taoist simply because they don't practice a complete system.

Thank you for sharing your experience. The question then of course is, if in China you don't have to be practicing the "full system" to be considered a Taoist, can Westerners who don't practice the "full system" also be considered Taoists?

 

[zerostao]

With American law having the first ammendment and such a wide variety of opinion on what a taoist is..I have a legal question, If I am in the U.S. military or even in prison and I have declared that my religion is taoism. and my preferred branch of taoism is baguazhang which I use as my form of prayer. Wouldnt they have to allow me to practice my baguazhang?

[dawei]

Stig. Great thread and could not agree more. Stop talking, re-packaging, and re-defining it; just LIVE the true original three treasures: Tian-Ren-Di. We played that game as a youth, 'monkey in the middle'... nice to see you have this as 'man in the middle'!

[The Way Is Virtue]

Thank you for sharing your experience. The question then of course is, if in China you don't have to be practicing the "full system" to be considered a Taoist, can Westerners who don't practice the "full system" also be considered Taoists?

 

Hi Stig. By 'system' I was referring not to a collection of practices, whatever one might actually be practicing, but the 'underlying essence' which makes all the different Taoist traditions and their practices be considered as part of a system called Taoism. My thinking is, that when the emphasis in the practice is on this underlying essence, it is Taoism, when this emphasis is not on this it seems to me one is just doing various practices, but not practicing Taoism. That is not to say that doing some of these practices just for their own sake doesn't have benefits, but if one is practicing Taoism then that underlying essence would have to be the main focus, no? Otherwise what do you see as the defining characteristics that make Taoism be Taoism and not just health exercises and tools for enhancing everyday life, or which separate it from say Buddhism?

 

Sure some of the practices don't have to be unique to Taoism and Taoists, such as maybe I Ching divination or Feng Shui, or health or medical qigong, or some internal martial arts, but there are certain practices that seem to be unique to Taoism and which require an accomplished teacher in Taoism to be able to learn them from. To me this would be more of all the spiritual and religious type of practices and self cultivation practices that are unique to Taoism, many of which are passed on only from master to disciple. Some of these traditions/practices may also require special ceremonies or rituals or a transmittal of some sort performed by the master to be able pass on the method to the student. In such a case one is not going to learn such a practice from anyone except an accomplished teacher of that tradition. I guess the question that arises then is, is it merely the practices and point of view that make Taoism be Taoism, or is there something unique underlying these practices that distinguish Taoism from Buddhism and Hinduism, etc.? Sure maybe at the highest levels of achievement they are all essentially the same, but until one gets to that point, is there anything unique to Taoism other than just a point of view and what is practiced? If I practice Buddhist meditation am I a Buddhist and if I practice Taoist meditation am I a Taoist? Or does there have to be more than that? This is what I am trying to get at with this idea of an underlying essence that makes these various practices fal into a system that we call Taoism.

Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[manitou]

I would guess that most of us have run into the understanding of the Tao because we landed here from other paths, particularly those of us in the West.

 

At the very lowest level, where the Tao likes to hang out in the physical world, all paths seem to merge, if they're followed far enough and structure is transcended. I am a Castaneda-ite who happened to come upon the TTC at a yard sale. It fit like a glove with my shamanic understanding and has expanded what I came here with.

 

Real life is merely a manifestation of that which we believe in our innermost selves. Somehow we all agree on a reality, this dynamic is WAY not understandable. We share the essence, the inner glow, the flame of existence, within our breasts. We are the stars, just as the earth is a piece of the sun. We ARE everything, but the we really have to get up in the nosebleed section to see it.

[manitou]

What about this Tao?

Where the individual can attain mastery over fate.

Its principles contain the categories of all that there is.

It molds the scope of all transformations.

These categories are in the minds of men;

everything; all that happens and everything that undergoes transformation.

These must obey laws prescribed by the minds of man.

Not until these categories become operative do things become things.

It enables us to penetrate and understand the movements of the light and the dark,

of life and death, of gods and demons.

This knowledge makes possible the mastery over fate.

Fate can be shaped if its laws are known.

The reason why we can oppose fate is that reality is always conditioned.

These conditions of time and space limit and determine it.

This TAO is not bound by these determinants so it can bring it about

as its own purpose requires.

This tao contains purely spiritual relationships which are so abstract

that they find expression in every framework of reality.

They contain only the tao that underlies events.

All chance contingencies can be shaped according to this tao.

The concious application of these possibilities assures mastery over fate.

 

 

Incredible, Zero

[The Way Is Virtue]

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Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[manitou]

I don't think the trappings are what's important.

 

As far as I can see, this is The Room Where All Paths Meet. My guess is because Tao encompasses all other religions and practices; others only encompass themselves.

[lazy cloud]

I don't think the trappings are what's important.

 

As far as I can see, this is The Room Where All Paths Meet. My guess is because Tao encompasses all other religions and practices; others only encompass themselves.

That is my guess too.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Decided that either way, what name is used for what people practice probably isn't too much of an issue. If what people are doing anywhere in the world is of value to them, and they want to call it Taoism, that is quite OK with me. It seems to me people are going to do and practice what they want anyway, regardless of what name they use for what they do. Most Westerners who are interested in such things seem content enough with some martial arts or qigong, maybe a bit of meditation for relaxation and peace of mind, and maybe some feng shui or divination practices for personal amusement, and they madse read a few taoists texts for interest's sake, so that's likely what will continue to spread in the West, as it already has been spreading for some time now. It seems to me that is probably quite enough already for most people's interests in the Western part of the world anyway. Calling such practices Taoism won't take anything away from those who want to delve deeper into the spiritual tradition, it seems to me.

Edited March 8, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[The Way Is Virtue]

I don't think the trappings are what's important.

 

As far as I can see, this is The Room Where All Paths Meet. My guess is because Tao encompasses all other religions and practices; others only encompass themselves.

 

Hi Manitou. Maybe this is a good question for people to consider then. What makes Taoism be 'Taoism' and which separates it from everything else? I think a good comparison might be to compare to Buddhism. In some ways Buddhism is similar to Taoism. Buddhism has both religious aspects and self cultivation aspects, as Taoism does. Putting aside the surface differences in beliefs and religious practices, I wonder if there is anything else that makes them distinct from each other? They both have the spiritual/self cultivation aspect. Could it be just the difference in views and approach which makes them different? Other religious traditions also have self cultivation traditions as well. Maybe they really are not all that different under the surface. The surface religious beliefs are different but inside they all deal with spiritual needs and spiritual/self refinement, I am thinking. Maybe all not so different after all?

Edited March 9, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue