Taoist unique approach to individual emancipation

[exorcist_1699]

I think the most important contribution of Taoism to our civilization is its raising the concept of qi and telling us the steps to initialize it , upgrade it to Shen .With it , all those miracles that precedent gods/ witches made can be explained , not in scientific terms , not in religious terms ,but in Taoist unique philosophical terms .

 

In fact , if you like , Taoism can purely be a system of philosophy yet without losing its character , its ability of initializing that special spiritual power ( in fact, at the point when you can initialize some qi, you are granted the potential of having that power , from qi to shen is a qualitative jump, but it is also a natural jump ..)

 

Never in human history does a philosophical system tell people how to cure diseases, how to live forever , how to make miracles in such concrete steps ...in that sense , we can say , Taoism really provides a way for individual emancipation.

 

Different from Buddhism, Taoism seldom proposes human emancipation , but individuals' emancipation . Does it mean Taoism holding a heart not kinder than , a compassion less stronger than Buddhism's towards the mass ?

 

Just take a look at what happened and happening in human history, we have to say that Taoism does adopt a more realistic approach...

Edited March 12, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I don't even want or need to be emancipated.

 

Way too many religions tell us that we need to be saved. Saved from what? Reality? No thank you.

[宁]

Marbles,

 

what is Qi to you, as a daoist philosopher?

[Marblehead]

Marbles,

 

what is Qi to you, as a daoist philosopher?

 

I still use the old spelling, Chi.

 

In my understanding:

 

Chi is the (mostly pure) energy of the universe. In my mind there are basically three aspects of the universe, the Manifest, Mystery (dark matter), and Chi (dark energy).

 

However, all living things, plant and animals, have their personal Chi (energy). I also include an aspect of our personal Chi to be what I call 'life force'.

 

And, of course, Chi is composed of Yin and Yang, the negative and positive polarities of any energy.

 

And yes, I believe that we can control our Chi to a certain extent. This can readily be reflected in our ability to change our mood whenever we wish to. And I also believe that we alter, to a very small degree, universal Chi as it permeates our essence and mixes with our personal Chi.

 

That's a good start.

[Jetsun]

Hehehe. I don't even want or need to be emancipated.

 

Way too many religions tell us that we need to be saved. Saved from what? Reality? No thank you.

 

If you look at the wars and violence in the world I think religions have a point that we need to be saved or helped, I don't think most religions have the capacity to do this in their current form and actually make things worse but I appreciate their original intention.

 

What do we need to be saved from? speaking for myself I can see the same violence, ego and destruction in my own mind that I see out in the world causing misery.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Jetsun

[Marblehead]

If you look at the wars and violence in the world I think religions have a point that we need to be saved or helped, I don't think most religions have the capacity to do this in their current form and actually make things worse but I appreciate their original intention.

 

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

Great reply. I am going to continue riding the same horse I was riding when I posted my above post so please understand that I mean no anger or criticism toward any one or any organization or institution created by man.

 

Okay, let's talk about wars. It has been my observation that almost every war had at its base religious ideals that one side was forcing or trying to force on another side. Iraq has its roots in religion. Afghanistan has its roots in religion.

 

The two World Wars much less. Most of what is happening in Africa today has religious roots.

 

I do agree with you, if religions would stay true to their 'original intention' the world would be a much more peaceful place.

 

The sad thing is is that religions are lead by humans. The rules are dictated by humans. Humans are susceptible to the desire for power. Overcome or kill your enemy - the enemy being the one who is holding power over territory and people you want to hold power over. Isn't that what the Christian Europeans did during the 17th thru 19th centuries?

 

I simply do not want to be saved by some organization that has the history of telling potential followers to convert or die. Not much of a choice IMO.

 

"What do we need to be saved from? speaking for myself I can see the same violence, ego and destruction in my own mind that I see out in the world causing misery."

 

If you are saying this in true truth and honesty then yes, you need be saved, to be emancipated. A religion may be able to take you there. I suggest that Philosophical Taoism can take you there as well, maybe more efficiently because with Taoism you still have all of your freedom and free will. You will have no one's dogma to pay homage to except your own if you wish to create any.

 

I remain open for comments and criticism to the above.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Marblehead

[Otis]

Saved from what? Reality? No thank you.

Yeah, I think that's the crux of it. Most religions tell people: you cannot trust your self, because you are born damaged goods, so you must trust something that is outside of you. The path ends at dependence, rather than freedom.

 

Whereas I see Taoism as a philosophy of learning to trust the path that appears within me (which happens, of course, to feel a lot like "God"), without having a religious conceptual framework to compare it to. Learn to rely on the genius you were born with, but were trained away from.

 

Religion says: "surrender your will to God" (just as parents say: "surrender your will to us"), whereas I hear Taoism saying: "surrender your will (but not to anyone), and thereby find the rest of you, which the will has heretofore obscured."

[宁]

That was kinda great Otis! Great wording too!

[Birch]

I +1'd it too Otis :-) Very nice.

 

Yes (and I said this in another thread) I do believe that one is born into a situation where "knowing" is immediately removed from one's horizon, or if it's not removed, then it's at least confounded. Later, one learns to confound oneself - and while many reasons have been brought to bear on the "why" including pure survival, which I'm sure is the case for the very young and people in situations where their life depends on it. Once one reaches adulthood, what in the world would lead one to persist in confounding oneself?

 

Turns out (IME) lots of things...

[The Way Is Virtue]

Interesting points exorcist. Some yogic traditions from the area of India seem to have similar traditions of using qi/prana in the process of spiritual cultivation and refinement, and they also claim to be able to achieve spiritual liberation and some higher abilites that go along with it, so I don't know that this approach is unique to Taoism although there are likely at least some differences. Even within Taoism as a whole there seem to have been different approaches and views.

 

Regarding the other points others have made, for those that don't allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, then it likely wouldn't make sense to them to worry about anything except trying to make things somewhat better for themself and maybe others as well in this current life in the physical world. For those that do allow that we may have a spiritual aspect, some may believe that what innate abilities and faculties we have within us are quite enough to get us anywhere we need to be and to do anything we need to do without any special action or assistance needed.

 

I don't think it is realistic to blame the world's problems and wars and such all on organized religion, as I think the underlying problem is really human nature. It doesn't seem to matter what the actual beliefs are, wars and other problems and conflicts still occur just the same. For example, some communist countries that had pretty much banned or downplayed the importance of religious practices have still been involved in various wars or conflicts or strong oppression or persecution against some of their own people or others, etc. Despite the belief system human nature still seems to prevail. Greed, ignorance, egotism, intolerance, the need to attack or dismiss that which differs from our own personal views and beliefs, etc., it all still exists, so I agree with Jetsun's comment on this that we may not be in control as much as we would like to think.

 

Different traditions provide different ways of dealing with this and although I personally can't say with certainty whether any of them really succeed or not, that is not in and of itself reason to dismiss these traditions out of hand I don't think. Maybe we really do need help in some ways or at least need a tried and proven approach to adopt to really rise above ignorance, but I don't know. At least in these modern times many of us have the freedom to choose how we live our lives and how we view things both mundane and spiritual. Through the trials of life we have to figure out what seems to work for us and what doesn't. If over time we are just spinning our wheels and really not seeing much improvement then maybe we should stop and consider if we might just be missing something after all. With the decline of religion in the West there does appear to be some decline in moral values and more emphasis being put on the individual self, so it seems religion, or at least some sort of spiritual point of view, can have at least some practical value in this world.

 

It probably doesn't help that there have been various fake masters/gurus/teachers from different traditions or various people who are just out to try to separate people from their money with various gimmicks, as now many people have been turned off by such things and are inclined to be very suspicious now as well. So where does that leave us? I certainly don't have any answers but it does seem that something is still really lacking somehow. Maybe this is just the natural unfolding of the world and everything is at it should be, but still I have to wonder...

Edited March 13, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[exorcist_1699]

The process of attaining this spiritual ability is simple for it is just a quantitative accumulation to qualitative jump process : we accumulate enough jing and shen , then at certain point ,naturally a totally new Spirit pop up from us ( See Huang Ting Jin : "積精累氣以成真") provided that we do not deliberately intervene , for example, some people chase after stronger feeling of qi...in this process.

 

There are few points I have to add:

 

1) This qualitative jump, in fact, is also a jump from " post-heavenly" to " pre-heavenly" level.

 

2) Thinking that this Spirit will arise from our brain is too simple-minded.It can pop- up from anywhere. Please notice that the Chinese do think that different organs in our body have their respective spirits .

 

 

3) This process is also a process of internalization, we pull our split spirits from those sensational organs ( eyes, ears, nose..)inwards , together and consolidate them into a united Spirit . Genuine Intention /Earth* arise...

 

* From Taoist/TCM point of view, eyes can see because they get the spirit from liver, ears can hear because they get the spirit from kidney, nose can smell because it gets the spirit from lung...etc , the split spirits correspond to Five Elements; here, they return to Earth . Earth is said to be able to absorb anything just like our stomach : in normal status , whatever we eat, it absorbs and digest .

 

In fact , it seems we can dump anything to earth , including our nuclear waste.

Edited March 14, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I think that's the crux of it ...

 

Nice post Otis!

[Marblehead]

I don't think it is realistic to blame the world's problems and wars and such all on organized religion, ...

 

You are correct but remember that I was forcing a point.

[The Way Is Virtue]

The process of attaining this spiritual ability is simple for it is just a quantitative accumulation to qualitative jump process : we accumulate enough jing and shen , then at certain point ,naturally a totally new Spirit pop up from us ( See Huang Ting Jin : "積精累氣以成真") provided that we do not deliberately intervene , for example, some people chase after stronger feeling of qi...in this process.

 

There are few points I have to add:

 

1) This qualitative jump, in fact, is also a jump from " post-heavenly" to " pre-heavenly" level.

 

2) Thinking that this Spirit will arise from our brain is too simple-minded.It can pop- up from anywhere. Please notice that the Chinese do think that different organs in our body have their respective spirits .

 

3) This process is also a process of internalization, we pull our split spirits from those sensational organs ( eyes, ears, nose..)inwards , together and consolidate them into a united Spirit . Genuine Intention /Earth* arise...

 

* From Taoist/TCM point of view, eyes can see because they get the spirit from liver, ears can hear because they get the spirit from kidney, nose can smell because it gets the spirit from lung...etc , the split spirits correspond to Five Elements; here, they return to Earth . Earth is said to be able to absorb anything just like our stomach : in normal status , whatever we eat, it absorbs and digest .

 

In fact , it seems we can dump everything to earth , including our nuclear waste.

 

 

Good information exorcist. Thanks for posting. What you are saying would seem to be consistent with what is described in texts such as the Nei Ye and Qing Jing Jing, that this is a natural process that occurs through the turning of the attention inward to cultivate 'stillness'. I would be interested to hear more about what you mean by the consolodating of the five spirits into the Earth. You said the five spirits (five elements) are consolodated through turning the attention of the senses inward, and then genuine intention (Earth) arises. Is genuine intention associated with the spleen then (Earth element) or is Earth here a reference to one's true 'center' and not necessarily related to the spleen? Can you explain more about the concept of genuine intention?

Edited March 13, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Otis]

Once one reaches adulthood, what in the world would lead one to persist in confounding oneself?

Perhaps an addiction to that action? It no longer serves, but it feels so important.

[exorcist_1699]

this is a natural process that occurs through the turning of the attention inward to cultivate 'stillness'. I would be interested to hear more about what you mean by the consolodating of the five spirits into the Earth. You said the five spirits (five elements) are consolodated through turning the attention of the senses inward, and then genuine intention (Earth) arises. Is genuine intention associated with the spleen then (Earth element) or is Earth here a reference to one's true 'center' and not necessarily related to the spleen? Can you explain more about the concept of genuine intention?

Both are correct .

 

In the sense of spiritual stability and unity:

 

In post-heavenly status, it is qi which drives our lung breathes, heart beats, stomach moves..,and plus our fluctuating mind , they are those disturbing factors that bar a stable , united Spirit from emergence ( that is why , in case of emergency, a fire for instance,we are advised to hold our breathing for a while in order to make a sane decision for escape ) . However, along with the deepening of our meditation , to certain point , these differentiated qi in various organs will unit , making our breathing ,heartbeat and thinking stop...therefore all spirits and qi can be united , and the appearance of the Spirit possible .

 

Another sense is that at later stage of our cultivation , after Shen and qi having their intercourse , a spiritual fetus is said to be produced, and the middle part our body will be the place where it is nourished.

 

Keen readers can sense that if we hold a scientific , functional approach to human body , then all these can't be understand ; this is why we emphasize using Taoist unique philosophical terminologies for although having used for 2,000 years , their meanings are quite coherent ,without too many changes ; and, they do describe and explain the process more precisely.

Edited March 14, 2011 by exorcist_1699

[The Way Is Virtue]

Both are correct .

 

In the sense of spiritual stability and unity:

 

In post-heavenly status, it is qi which drives our lung breathes, heart beats, stomach moves..,and plus our fluctuating mind , they are those disturbing factors that bar a stable , united Spirit from emergence ( that is why , in case of emergency, a fire for instance,we are advised to hold our breathing for a while in order to make a sane decision for escape ) . However, along with the deepening of our meditation , to certain point , these differentiated qi in various organs will unit , making our breathing ,heartbeat and thinking stop...therefore all spirits and qi can be united , and the appearance of the Spirit possible .

 

Another sense is that at later stage of our cultivation , after Shen and qi having their intercourse , a spiritual fetus is said to be produced, and the middle part our body will be the place where it is nourished.

 

Keen readers can sense that if we hold a scientific , functional approach to human body , then all these can't be understand ; this is why we emphasize using Taoist unique philosophical terminologies for although having used for 2,000 years , their meanings are quite coherent ,without too many changes ; and, they do describe and explain the process more precisely.

 

Ok, thanks. I understand that not everything is meant to be taken literally but instead often applies to an abstract concept that doesn't necessarily directly translate to a physical counterpart.