What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 2

[Stigweard]

This poll can be used in conjunction with What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1. It uses Livia Kohn's distinctions of the degrees of involvement an individual may have in the religion/tradition of Taoism.

 

Comments and discussion welcomed.

 

[Marblehead]

I can't vote because I feel I am somewhere between the two.

[NeiChuan]

I can't vote because I feel I am somewhere between the two.

 

I'd think the same.

 

Im not fully immersed in some of the fundamental knowledge yet, although the things I mesh with my outlook are more ideas, more growing instead of set in stone.

 

Way it should be I'd imagine.

 

Edit : Btw nice to see you stig

Edited March 13, 2011 by NeiChuan

[devoid]

This poll can be used in conjunction with What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1. It uses Livia Kohn's distinctions of the degrees of involvement an individual may have in the religion/tradition of Taoism.

 

Comments and discussion welcomed.

 

 

Hi Stig,

 

I am wondering if there's really a good reason to box people into these type of groups to understand their relation to Taoism? (apart from perhaps input for a PhD thesis or similar )

 

IMHO the two categories presented are much too stereotypical - kind of the opposite of the insightful article on common western misperceptions on daoism which you recently posted (and which I enjoyed very much, by the way: thank you ).

 

Outside of any specific requirements which some taoist sects may impose on their members, there is no requirements or impositions in any of the general teachings that I have come across which suggest a need for organizing taoism (as in congregating, establishing churches, producing or using altars, praying, etc.). Neither have I come across any demand of exclusivity in the great old texts that we discuss on this forum, such as the type which can typically be found in e.g. monotheistic or organized religions / philosophies.

[Apech]

I'm sympathetic because of my other interests/studies.

 

Some say less sym and more pathetic. (ha ha).

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig,

 

I am wondering if there's really a good reason to box people into these type of groups to understand their relation to Taoism? (apart from perhaps input for a PhD thesis or similar )

 

IMHO the two categories presented are much too stereotypical - kind of the opposite of the insightful article on common western misperceptions on daoism which you recently posted (and which I enjoyed very much, by the way: thank you ).

 

Outside of any specific requirements which some taoist sects may impose on their members, there is no requirements or impositions in any of the general teachings that I have come across which suggest a need for organizing taoism (as in congregating, establishing churches, producing or using altars, praying, etc.). Neither have I come across any demand of exclusivity in the great old texts that we discuss on this forum, such as the type which can typically be found in e.g. monotheistic or organized religions / philosophies.

Thanks for the inquiry devoid. I guess you could consider my investigations as 3 parts research and 1 part advocacy.

 

In terms of research, I am always on the look out to see how I can serve best. I deeply believe in the benefits that the Taoist world view offers to the world. So the question I am always asking is, "How can I/we be better emissaries for this tradition?"

 

There is an incredible dialog taking place between Chinese Taoism and those in the west that find affinity to its ontology. Notice I said "incredible" not "good" The Taoist summit I attended in Beijing in 2009 showed me that there is a wide divide between Chinese and Western adherents.

 

The only way that divide is going to be bridged is through dialogue and mutual understanding.

 

Now part of my building of understanding is to find out more about western views of Taoism, and I have run a few topics and polls along this line:

 

What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1

What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 2

What is the BIGGEST challenge for Modern Western Taoists?

The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism

The challenges facing Modern Western Taoists

The 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture

Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues

 

And at the same time I am taking every opportunity to learn about traditional Chinese Taoist adherents and their views on their tradition and how it is being expressed in the West.

 

It's also research about my own perceptions on the issue. I am quite prone to throwing a statement or sentiment out there on the forum and reaping the benefits of how other people's perceptions and views will further clarify, shape and progress my own view (classic example: Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?)

 

And yes it is also about advocacy as well. Western students have obviously received a misconstrued view of Taoism through the filter of western commercialism, colonialism and blatant misinformation. And if the above mentioned dialogue is going to take place then we have to give due respect to the Chinese Taoist adherents by understanding their world view with contextual correctness.

 

So rather than "boxing" people into groups, my purpose is to challenge established views and stimulate dialogue for the purpose of greater understanding. And this goes both ways because I also believe that the traditional Taoists need to try and understand Western thinking more so that they can offer their teachings in a way that is more digestible than the current offerings -- this was the main thrust of my presentation when I spoke at one of the official functions at the above mentioned summit.

 

And I have to say that your last paragraph is indicative of exactly the issue I am raising here. You have read some general texts on Taoism and you didn't find iconical or ritualistic practices there and then assume that, because they aren't in these general texts, they aren't or shouldn't be there in Taoism. You can be quite sure that if you were permitted to enter the gate of these schools as a formal student you would find that there are indeed very specific ancient texts that outline exactly what you didn't find in your popular general texts (please don't mistake this as me saying that I have been accepted as a formal student of any particular school).

 

So yes mutual understanding and respect between traditional Taoists and western sympathizers is the key. Because what most westerners think is Taoism is barely scratching the surface and from my own study and training what is there to be discovered is infinitely much more.

 

[devoid]

Hi Stig,

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Just one observation (and this comes from my experience in traveling to China occasionally on business and meeting with regular Chinese people who are not part of any taoist sect for what I am aware) - like me, they come across as fairly agnostic about it and realize that the taoist philosophy is one of balance that speaks to their common sense.

 

The point I am trying to make here is that it seems to me that you are trying to compare taoist sect leaders in China with westerners who have become interested in taoism. Of course this will tell you that the two groups are fundamentally different.

 

What I am suggesting though is that most Chinese I have come across accept Taoism as a philosophy and embrace it for what they believe it is worth - just like their western peers they approach it pragmatically (sympathizers in your speak, although my guess is that many would take offence at the suggested labeling).

 

All I'm suggesting here is that you make the mistake of comparing the pedestaled practitioners from one culture / geography with average Joe practitioners of another, but that's just my five cents.

 

Regardless, I wish you lots of success in your research - my thoughts are meant as food for thought rather than personal criticism - I hope you can make use of it in that spirit

[Encephalon]

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig,

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Just one observation (and this comes from my experience in traveling to China occasionally on business and meeting with regular Chinese people who are not part of any taoist sect for what I am aware) - like me, they come across as fairly agnostic about it and realize that the taoist philosophy is one of balance that speaks to their common sense.

 

The point I am trying to make here is that it seems to me that you are trying to compare taoist sect leaders in China with westerners who have become interested in taoism. Of course this will tell you that the two groups are fundamentally different.

 

What I am suggesting though is that most Chinese I have come across accept Taoism as a philosophy and embrace it for what they believe it is worth - just like their western peers they approach it pragmatically (sympathizers in your speak, although my guess is that many would take offence at the suggested labeling).

 

All I'm suggesting here is that you make the mistake of comparing the pedestaled practitioners from one culture / geography with average Joe practitioners of another, but that's just my five cents.

 

Regardless, I wish you lots of success in your research - my thoughts are meant as food for thought rather than personal criticism - I hope you can make use of it in that spirit

Thank you for your comments devoid, you are quite accurate in what you say. I acknowledge as you have accurately pointed out that there are Taoist sympathizers in the east just as much as those in the west.

 

What I am advocating here is for western students of Taoism to become more educated about what their focus of study is really all about. Many people certainly make the misconceptions outlined here: COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS CONCERNING DAOISM (TAOISM).

 

[Mark Saltveit]

Thank you for your comments devoid, you are quite accurate in what you say. I acknowledge as you have accurately pointed out that there are Taoist sympathizers in the east just as much as those in the west.

 

What I am advocating here is for western students of Taoism to become more educated about what their focus of study is really all about. Many people certainly make the misconceptions outlined here: COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS CONCERNING DAOISM (TAOISM).

 

 

I wonder why you are insistent on the term "sympathizers," even for Chinese people who grew up with Taoism in its native culture? Wouldn't it be just as accurate to call those people Taoists, and initiates into the Quanzhen rites (for example) Taoist monks?

[Stigweard]

I wonder why you are insistent on the term "sympathizers," even for Chinese people who grew up with Taoism in its native culture? Wouldn't it be just as accurate to call those people Taoists, and initiates into the Quanzhen rites (for example) Taoist monks?

LOL we are discussing the same topic across a few threads ... all good