David Shen Verdesi

[therion]

More_Pie_Guy you can cultivate by yourself to a pretty good level but in daoism it works like this. You meet a high level master. If master finds you suitable he can accept you into the lineage. You train in his presence and your energetic level and spiritual awareness shoots up to the stratosphere. This leaves an energetic imprint on your shen which is talked about as energetic lineage transmission or simply oral transmission. That is the real secret that is shared. Then you are given the lineage specific methods that actually develop that kind of spiritual energy. From then on not only is it very hard work but you have to have someone watch and monitor how your energetic body develops. So many things can go wrong and usually do.

 

I don't think David is at the level where he can guide you to a high level of immortality mostly because he's nowhere near that level himself. But even Jiang has masters who are around the level of Chang's master Liao Tzu Tong when he was alive. There's simply no way around being guided by a real master and initiated into a real daoist lineage that has a history of producing immortals. So that's why just training 10 days in the presence of Wang Liping can be more rewarding than a lifetime of work by yourself. But at the same time you have no way of knowing what your true potential is. For all I know you could awaken tomorrow and surpass all of them in an instant.

Edited March 15, 2011 by therion

[Thunder_Gooch]

therion,

 

I don't believe in transmissions and such, I believe in bootstraps. I've got enough information in neigong to get me by for 5 or more years. When I am done going as far as I can on my own I will seek further help.

 

 

When I last spoke with master Wang he told me flat out I'm a lardass, and to get in shape. If I meet him in person I will be certain I am in prime physical condition, I can speak Chinese, and I have finished filling my lower dan tein, and I can sit in full lotus in deep meditation for at least 4 hours.

 

I wouldn't waste his time otherwise. I think a certain level of respect is required, and if I were a master I wouldn't charge students money but I wouldn't teach anyone who didn't come to me prepared.

 

 

I don't like people wasting my time, and I sure as heck don't want to waste a master's. When I seek them out I will make sure I am worthy of becoming their student.

 

Since I've been working 50 hour weeks and not cultivating at all I've lost the abilities I had developed but I know the potential to reawaken them exists. You don't need someone to hold your hand, you just need dedication and correct methods.

 

More_Pie_Guy you can cultivate by yourself to a pretty good level but in daoism it works like this. You meet a high level master. If master finds you suitable he can accept you into the lineage. You train in his presence and your energetic level and spiritual awareness shoots up to the stratosphere. This leaves an energetic imprint on your shen which is talked about as energetic lineage transmission or simply oral transmission. That is the real secret that is shared. Then you are given the lineage specific methods that actually develop that kind of spiritual energy. From then on not only is it very hard work but you have to have someone watch and monitor how your energetic body develops. So many things can go wrong and usually do.

 

I don't think David is at the level where he can guide you to a high level of immortality mostly because he's nowhere near that level himself. But even Jiang has masters who are around the level of Chang's master Liao Tzu Tong when he was alive. There's simply no way around being guided by a real master and initiated into a real daoist lineage that has a history of producing immortals. So that's why just training 10 days in the presence of Wang Liping can be more rewarding than a lifetime of work by yourself. But at the same time you have no way of knowing what your true potential is. For all I know you could awaken tomorrow and surpass all of them in an instant.

Edited March 16, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Sloppy Zhang]

Right now I have priorities and spending 4K to go to China to study isn't one of them.

 

I am saving to get an acre of land, and a camper, and get the basics for life squared away. I want to work only part time after that and focus full time on training, when I have gone as far as I can with the teachings I have, then and only then will I consider going to china.

 

It would be very silly to waste master Wang's time, or any master for that matter until I have mastered full lotus, and the other basic meditations and exercises that have been taught. I expect a full 5 or more years of full time training 40+ hours per week to master all the teachings I currently have.

 

 

I might in the future seek out master Wang when I am in a position to do so.

 

I fully support and agree with this position, and it's the position that I take as well. There is a LOT of material out there on basics, and nowadays, depending on where you look, a fair amount of material one or two steps up from basic. A far cry from mastery, but still fairly decent material to get you going.

 

It would be a waste of a student's time, a student's money, and a teacher's time for the student to show up, and the teacher to tell them, "ah, I see, you want to learn, okay, do this basic exercise which you could have discovered on your own."

 

In my opinion, it's much better to do everything that you can with what you do have, so that way, when you get a chance to work with somebody, after spending your hard earned money, you can really hit the ground running, really get into the meat of the practice. A lot of questions arise, and then are resolved, simply through practice. You can ask a teacher, or discover it on your own.

 

If you've got access to a teacher, good for you. A lot of people don't. And I argue that if you've got a lot of personal diligence, you can work out a lot of solutions on your own. If you can contact other experienced practitioners (like on TTB's), you can work out a lot of solutions on your own.

 

And then when you've got something you can't otherwise solve on your own, or learn on your own, you can go find a master, and you'll be all the more ready.

 

But what do I know?

 

I don't believe in transmissions and such, I believe in bootstraps. I've got enough information in neigong to get me by for 5 or more years. When I am done going as far as I can on my own I will seek further help.

 

My theory (with regards to transmissions), is if something is real and true, then if you do a procedure properly, you are going to get the result. If energy is really out there in the universe and in the human body, if it can be collected and controlled, used to heal, used to boost spiritual enlightenment, then you should be able to do it by virtue of being a human being. Someone had to be the first to do it. Things related to cultivation should be as apparent as gravity.

 

Now I understand that some people are metaphorically blindfolded, and that a transmission helps to metaphorically remove that blindfold, or give them the metaphorical scissors to metaphorically cut the blindfold as an ongoing process on their own. But if someone knows they have a blindfold, and has a means of untying the knot, pulling it off their face, and/or finding their own scissors and removing it themselves, then they should be able to do so! And if the end goal is really the same, then their result should be no different than someone with transmissions.

 

But again, what do I know?

 

If I meet him in person I will be certain I am in prime physical condition, I can speak Chinese, and I have finished filling my lower dan tein, and I can sit in full lotus in deep meditation for at least 4 hours.

I wouldn't waste his time otherwise. I think a certain level of respect is required, and if I were a master I wouldn't charge students but I wouldn't accept teach anyone who didn't come to me prepared.

 

 

I don't like people wasting my time, and I sure as heck don't want to waste a master's. When I seek them out I will make sure I am worthy of becoming their student.

 

Since I've been working and not cultivating at all I've lost the abilities I had developed but I know the potential to reawaken them exists. You don't need someone to hold your hand, you just need dedication and correct methods.

 

Again I voice my hearty support for and agreement with this position!

Edited March 16, 2011 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ken]

edit: oops double post.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Ken

[Ken]

I won't even waste my breath on a naive troll like you, you will learn one day.

 

TaoBum, you are an intelligent, reasonable, seeker of mastery. Ken here acts like he's knowledgeable, but honestly, he is simply an old friend of kathy li and takes every opportunity to show his bias. Jeannette is a direct contact for Grandmaster Wang as she is the one who studies three times per year with Grandmaster but Ken studied but only once and thus knows nothing about what is 'official'. Ken's bias is reinforced by not having spoken with Grandmaster directly for about a year; since the April 2010 intensive! he has no basis to determine who is 'official'.

 

Let it be known that Jeannette at Dragon Gate Academy in New York is every bit as Official as kathy. the only parties with this 'official problem' are kathy and kevin (husband) and yes, apparently their good friend, Ken. The New York branch supports Grandmaster Wang without ego. kathy seeks dominion; this is the difference.

 

Jeannette was very kind and helpful to me because i am a full time student; she made it possible for me to study with Grandmaster. She is really an awesome person, an enlightened student volunteer receiving absolutely no financial compensation. i want to say that she is the REAL, serious student whereas some others just have serious ego issues. The New York branch is growing rapidly; the current students practice twice per week together as a group and look forward to attending the April 2011 Intensive. Very few students come only once to an Intensive with Grandmaster because they make so much progress that they naturally wish to progress even more.

 

TaoBum, i do hope you will join us one day; for an Intensive directly with Grandmaster. the value will be made very clear to you; the practice is absolutely priceless. this cannot be compared to a disjointed, low vibe, egoistical, weekend retreat with kathy. see, clearly, 'more pie' didn't learn anything to encourage your attendance! after that weekend retreat, two years ago, he may never be motivated to study directly with Grandmaster. Sad.

[Ken]

Ya know, I think you are doing it backward. Firstly, even if you can do any of those things, you won't be any special, there are people in the big seminar who can go into trance in full lotus for several days at will. (Also there is no "dantian" to speak of in normal person, in Longmen Pai, you need to create a Xia Tian (lower field) before you can fill "anything") Secondly, by the time you can do any of these, it is possible that Master Wang will be retired from public and you won't be able to find him anymore, trust me if he doesn't want to be found he won't be, he is absolutely capable of doing that. So it's more important to study with him while he is still teaching publicly. Also don't buy into Verdesi's bullshit of "secret teachings" behind door, Master Wang is already teaching real stuff in public. Finally if you are serious about learning Chinese, perhaps you should start using Official Chinese Pinyin for you Chinese romanizations. For example, Dantian not dan tien, den tein ten tein or any other weird spellings.

 

 

 

When I last spoke with master Wang he told me flat out I'm a lardass, and to get in shape. If I meet him in person I will be certain I am in prime physical condition, I can speak Chinese, and I have finished filling my lower dan tein, and I can sit in full lotus in deep meditation for at least 4 hours.

 

I wouldn't waste his time otherwise. I think a certain level of respect is required, and if I were a master I wouldn't charge students money but I wouldn't teach anyone who didn't come to me prepared.

 

 

I don't like people wasting my time, and I sure as heck don't want to waste a master's. When I seek them out I will make sure I am worthy of becoming their student.

 

Since I've been working 50 hour weeks and not cultivating at all I've lost the abilities I had developed but I know the potential to reawaken them exists. You don't need someone to hold your hand, you just need dedication and correct methods.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I probably am doing it backward, but it's my way of doing things. If master Wang isn't teaching by the time I am ready to seek him out, then I'll seek out his students and learn from them or investigate better leads into other teachers.

 

The only practice I am interested in getting more info on is "cutting the root of the spirit" to stop rebirth, I've asked a few times but not been able to get any more information on it from him. It sounds like it is a form of spiritual suicide resulting in eternal death, but I haven't been able to find out more.

 

Really my only goal for practice is to never be reborn, I'd rather do that by becoming a hsien but I doubt such a thing is possible for me realistically. If cutting the root of the spirit meant I could stop rebirth in this lifetime but remain dead eternally so be it.

 

 

 

Ya know, I think you are doing it backward. Firstly, even if you can do any of those things, you won't be any special, there are people in the big seminar who can go into trance in full lotus for several days at will. (Also there is no "dantian" to speak of in normal person, in Longmen Pai, you need to create a Xia Tian (lower field) before you can fill "anything") Secondly, by the time you can do any of these, it is possible that Master Wang will be retired from public and you won't be able to find him anymore, trust me if he doesn't want to be found he won't be, he is absolutely capable of doing that. So it's more important to study with him while he is still teaching publicly. Also don't buy into Verdesi's bullshit of "secret teachings" behind door, Master Wang is already teaching real stuff in public. Finally if you are serious about learning Chinese, perhaps you should start using Official Chinese Pinyin for you Chinese romanizations. For example, Dantian not dan tien, den tein ten tein or any other weird spellings.

[Ken]

Master Wang had talked about the question of reincarnation several times already, and he actually mentioned it again last time (in an off hand comment)of how to stop reincarnation.

 

 

"cutting the root of the spirit" or whatever is NOT a practice that one can be tuaght, it's the result of completing one's neidan (inner alchemy) training. If one can ever attain the level Spiritual Immortal (神仙）i.e. when one fully realizes his Yang Spirit (阳神出窍), then one can stop reincarnation. So there is no one practice to do it and you can't be taught to do it, it's the apex of one's training.

 

I probably am doing it backward, but it's my way of doing things. If master Wang isn't teaching by the time I am ready to seek him out, then I'll seek out his students and learn from them or investigate better leads into other teachers.

 

The only practice I am interested in getting more info on is "cutting the root of the spirit" to stop rebirth, I've asked a few times but not been able to get any more information on it from him. It sounds like it is a form of spiritual suicide resulting in eternal death, but I haven't been able to find out more.

 

Really my only goal for practice is to never be reborn, I'd rather do that by becoming a hsien but I doubt such a thing is possible for me realistically. If cutting the root of the spirit meant I could stop rebirth in this lifetime but remain dead eternally so be it.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Ken

[Thunder_Gooch]

Maybe I am being ignorant but the answer I got last meeting sounded specifically like cutting the root of the spirit was meant to be taken literally, and is a method in and of itself to end rebirth. I don't know as I haven't yet gotten a detailed answer to what it is or how to do it.

 

Master Wang's answer: 1. There is a very special method to stop the

rebirth. Cutting off the "spirit/soul root" is one way. 2. There 3 types

of energy --- universal energy, rebirth energy, yourself body energy.

Taoist practicing training is to train with these 3 energies, if they

train successfully, the rebirth will be stopped.

 

 

Master Wang had talked about the question of reincarnation several times already, and he actually mentioned it again last time (in an off hand comment)of how to stop reincarnation.

 

 

"cutting the root of the spirit" or whatever is NOT a practice that one can be tuaght, it's the result of completing one's neidan (inner alchemy) training. If one can ever attain the level Spiritual Immortal (神仙）i.e. when one fully realizes his Yang Spirit (阳神出窍), then one can stop reincarnation. So there is no one practice to do it and you can't be taught to do it, it's the apex of one's training.

[宁]

MPG, you should consider that your purpose (which i think is kinda sad...) MAYBE due to an energetic imbalance. As such, you should work for a virtual Purpose B, in case you won't have the first one to hold on to

But any rate, one thing I've learned is that you DON'T come into training with expectations and plans of your own, you do it just because you do it, you like doing it. It seems to be the crux of it!

 

All things considered, i agree with Ken regarding this... you should start right where you are, in time i learned not to trust 'practice' plans that are made for 'tomorrow'.

Tomorrow belongs to nobody

 

Edit: Since we're at Verdesi... We should 'render unto the Caesar what belongs to Caesar. He's writing of traditional daoism inspired many to search for the authentical, personally I am grateful for this. Like yourself, it was then that I made my commitment to learn Chinese, and [maybe someday] [real working] traditional practice. I hope I'm halfway there!

Edited March 16, 2011 by Little1

[Ken]

Master Wang's answer: 1. There is a very special method to stop the

rebirth. Cutting off the "spirit/soul root" is one way. 2. There 3 types

of energy --- universal energy, rebirth energy, yourself body energy.

Taoist practicing training is to train with these 3 energies, if they

train successfully, the rebirth will be stopped.

 

 

Well your (1) is new to me, i was talking about (2).

 

Also I am happy to further discuss this and anything related to longmen if anyone is interested in my limited understandings but can we start a new thread? I don't want to discuss authentic teachings of Master Wang under a thread that's titled "David Verdesi". Yuck, I feel sullied and I don't want to give him any free association of Master Wang for even a tiny hint of legitimacy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Since we're at Verdesi... We should 'render unto the Caesar what belongs to Caesar. He's writing of traditional daoism inspired many to search for the authentical, personally I am grateful for this. Like yourself, it was then that I made my commitment to learn Chinese, and [maybe someday] [real working] traditional practice. I hope I'm halfway there!

 

Edit: You mean his high fantasy? There is nothing traditional daoism is his writings, it's 30% half-truth and 70% bullshit aim to tempt the naive 20-year olds with wet dreams of super power. Although I have to give it to him that he is a pro-active person who really go out and seek out his wet dream, which is more than a lot of people who want to cultivate from their parent's basement through the internet. But he is still a liar shitface scumbag though.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Ken

[Thunder_Gooch]

MPG, you should consider that your purpose (which i think is kinda sad...) MAYBE due to an energetic imbalance.

 

Perhaps it is. I was atheist for most of my life, until I had an experience which proved to me beyond any reasonable doubt, there are things we don't yet understand.

 

When I was atheist, I just wanted to be intellectually stimulated, live a good life and be a good person, and die and remain dead for the rest of eternity.

 

Now I am not so sure that is what happens after death, after my experience I am more inclined to believe in rebirth, and that thought is horrific to me. The thought of an endless succession of lives, after each life ends you lose your memories and identity of the previous life and begin again as a child. That sounds like hell to me, and something I want to prevent at all costs.

 

Losing my memories, identity, personality and my awareness starting again as a child somewhere at sometime again in the universe as something else.

 

I'd rather my awareness just end in a sea of eternal nonexistence then being erased and starting new as someone or something else.

 

If there really is an eternal cycle of rebirth, I want it to end this in lifetime by any means necessary.

 

That's just how I feel, I am ready to get off the merry-go-round.

Edited March 16, 2011 by More_Pie_Guy

[Ken]

edit: fucking Verizon connection!

Edited March 16, 2011 by Ken

[gendao]

MPG, you should consider that your purpose (which i think is kinda sad...) MAYBE due to an energetic imbalance.

Actually, sounds like he may be ripe for non-duality and liberation from the ultimate illusion - SELF...

"Haunted Universe" promises none of that, it is not a book about making your life better, it is a book about the end of life, the annihilation of the soul and the final loss of self. If you want to find hope, or peace or love then buy one of those other books. But if you have finally grown tired of all that, if you now dare to peek behind the curtain, to remove the mask and stare deep into the abyss, then "Haunted Universe" is your guide. It may be the most dangerous, frightening and potentially enlightening book you will ever read.

 

"Enlightenment is the disappearance of the one who wants it." Sally Ann Hughes.

Ken, that would be AWESOME! I have a lot of questions...so let's please do start a separate Longmen Pai thread! Or do you ever just post here?

[宁]

 

Edit: You mean his high fantasy? There is nothing traditional daoism is his writings, it's 30% half-truth and 70% bullshit aim to tempt the naive 20-year olds with wet dreams of super power. Although I have to give it to him that he is a pro-active person who really go out and seek out his wet dream, which is more than a lot of people who want to cultivate from their parent's basement through the internet. But he is still a liar shitface scumbag though.

 

Ken, he was the first loud voice to say this to the West, that traditional dao does exist, and it looks mighty different from what we knew.. This information alone was priceless, to me, and am sure to many others.

I don't know what he writes about now, I only meant what I wrote.

[宁]

Actually, sounds like he may be ripe for non-duality and liberation from the ultimate illusion - SELF...

 

If the Self is an illusion, then it's a darn good one! Personally i have nothing on it!