beginner asks about kunlun or other capable methods and mixing with occult western methods working with the mind

[d'avid]

Dear friends of awakening,

 

I am looking for the qigong methods / system that support me in achieving enlightment and getting my vehicle to work on a higher level while being able to live, learn and make my living in the western world.

 

First of all a few words to my background (my question follows at the end):

I haven't yet practiced more than a few bits of QiGong but feel the strong will and necessity to conciously move energy in my body. I studied a western mystery tradition teaching for some time now that does a good job helping to remember how things are and that works with visualisation and meditations (qabalistic stuff, also using tarot motives to work with in imagination). I am basically happy with these technics and although I neglected them a bit for some time I don't want to skip them. They work "indirectly" upon the centers by containing mixtures of balancing elements - no concentration is done directly upon the centers. I understand that this a responsible, maybe bit slower but safe path to enlightement. However some of these exercices "liberate" "libido energy" and fire me up so that I have to deal with those energies that manifest in the physical body. The teachings I was studying recommend not to experiment with breathing technics as they could lead to mindblowing / disintegrating states or imbalances that coulnd't be corrected without the assistance of a clearvoyant more advanced being (master). Whereas that might be good advice for balanced people, I feel if I do not cultivate my breathing, if I do not learn how to conciously direct the mobilized raw energies (that also build up from not ejaculating which is a choice already set) I am worried of getting into heavy congestions (especially around the solar plexus) or loosing myself in sensual overindulgence which won't lead me to liberation. However don't get me wrong, I like the sexual energy and know about it's power. Maybe it's because of closed channels / pathways in my bodysystem that I cannot yet positively harness it.

 

So that's how I got interested in parallelly doing some qigong or something similar. Now I am evaluating which way to take. I am a physically healthy, male, single, 32 years old, living in Switzerland. My body isn't trained in particular, but I basically observe a healthy vegetarian almost vegan diet for a long time and didn't need a doctor for about a dozen years now. I experienced cosmic conciousness for a few moments in life, so I know what it tastes like, but probably due to a body not prepared for it and contradicting subconcious patterns from the past, I lost it and feel far enough away from it these days. Of course I now can't be satisfied easily and have no other choice than regaining it.

 

I had a look at a few offers of qigong courses offered in this country but didn't feel the pulling to join one, also observed myself doubting the degree of realization of the so called masters or teachers. I woulnd't mind to pay for a seminar (as long as it's reasonably priced) but whatever I can learn has to be integreated in my own life by my own efforts so as long as they are teaching basic movements I was thinking I could learn them from book / dvd as well. I got a few, as f.ex. Master Liang & Wu: Qigong Empowerment, Ratziel Bander: Hsin Tao or Lu K'uan yü (Charles Luk): Taoist Yoga - Alchemy & Immortality, some of Mantak Chia (I just don't manageto trust him as I don't envy him for his conciousness and as he promotes orgasms) or Daniel Reids: The Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity. Although there is useful stuff in it, I still expected to find something better for me.

 

After reading several threats in this forum I got interested in Spring Forest QiGong and Kunlun Nei Gung which might be helpful as it seems to work "downwards" whereas the fire works upwards anyway.

 

I visited a few websites from Max Christensen and was a little disappointed as there was many nice pictures but not much about the technics. The link to the list with the certified teachers didn't work and the presented book is not available. At one place I read:

This practice is not written in any form.

I was looking for seminars (there were some in Europe I guess 2-3 years ago) but there is none.

 

So what is the steps to learn about it and give it a try? For somebody not living in the US?

 

On http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/ I read:

When other systems are taught, in particular, systems that increase the fire element such as Kundalini or systems that increase the Chi as in Chi Gong without the proper preparation of the connection of all three dantiens in a strong magnetic field produced by the middle dantien or heart, it can potentially lead to biological strain at minimum or neurological dysfunction leading to a breakdown of all biological systems in the body, therefore, It is imperative that the KUNLUN NEI GUNG System be practice as a complete system and not mixed with any other system of enlightenment. When practicing the KUNLUN System seperate it by a day with your other practices.

 

So do I have to expect those practices to interfere with methods of western occultism (similar to golden dawn) although they don't deal with the body directly (but insist on the body being the mean / instrument of the alchemical process)?

 

A member here (I think it was little1, a Mantak Chia Tao Yoga practitioner) once stated that western occultism was the path of fire or ether whereas qigong was the one of water - can such be said in general? Isn't the sexual energy fire and water? Has a choice to be made after reaching a certain stage between Eastern or Western way of aspiration? I understand that the subconcious cannot effectively work if fed with (seemingly) contradicting systems / symbols but I cannot leave my body alone when I feel the urge to correct and direct energy.

 

Thanks for contributions to further insight.

Edited March 13, 2011 by d'avid

[Jetsun]

You used to be able to buy the Kunlun instruction book from Amazon but last I looked it was out of print in English but I think they still sell it in some other languages, French I think. Jenny Lamb also teaches the technique and demonstrates it in her Qigong for health dvd. Kunlun is a powerful technique though and traditionally I don't think it was recommended for beginners but it depends on the individual, but I wouldn't mix it with many other energy methods, meditation is fine but not energetic fire methods

 

My understanding is that the Water path is the downward flow of energy which is considered by many as the healing path as it moves energy into the earth so it is the safer path to take with moving energy as it is grounding, while the fire is more dramatic but more unstable. I wouldn't do a fire method without a teacher personally. Bruce Frantzis talks about these issues in some of his books like "Opening the energy gates of your body" which is a good book

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jetsun

[thelerner]

I like Kunlun but I don't consider it a full blown system. If you work on it I'm sure it can take you far, but lets face it, there's not a teacher you have access too and the practices are few and pretty simple. To me its a nice tool to have, but a full blown system..no.

 

To me a full system means body, mind, spirit..breathing, sleeping, ethics etc. A world of practice and study. A capable teacher to keep you on track.

 

Things that can take you far in 10 or 20 years of dedication are things like Bardon's Hermetics, which is a Western take on alchemy. Look into Rawn Clarks site, abardoncompanion.com . For a course with in energetic esoteric meditation, we have Santiago who teaches KAP, its taught through skype so you access to live classes online and some real feedback.

 

Don't get too hung up on powers and enlightenment too early. I'm seriously thinking of taking Ya Mu's seminar this month. Looks like its on the power of stillness. Stillness, yin, sounds like just the ticket for Westerners, no powers, just an exploration of stillness.

 

Sometimes we need the opposite of what we desire.

 

Michael

[Leif]

"This practice is not written in any form" might relate to only part of practice, as most of it is described in the book.

There is a list of teachers on http://www.kunlunbliss.com/teachers.html but it might be out of date. I believe I have heard about someone in Austria but he is not on the list, there are teachers in Germany and Norway.

If you are in Switzerland, maybe you know a bit of French - French edition of Kunlun book is currently available, it's just the English one that's not.

[sundoteacher]

Dear friends of awakening,

 

I am looking for the qigong methods / system that support me in achieving enlightment and getting my vehicle to work on a higher level while being able to live, learn and make my living in the western world.

 

First of all a few words to my background (my question follows at the end):

I haven't yet practiced more than a few bits of QiGong but feel the strong will and necessity to conciously move energy in my body. I studied a western mystery tradition teaching for some time now that does a good job helping to remember how things are and that works with visualisation and meditations (qabalistic stuff, also using tarot motives to work with in imagination). I am basically happy with these technics and although I neglected them a bit for some time I don't want to skip them. They work "indirectly" upon the centers by containing mixtures of balancing elements - no concentration is done directly upon the centers. I understand that this a responsible, maybe bit slower but safe path to enlightement. However some of these exercices "liberate" "libido energy" and fire me up so that I have to deal with those energies that manifest in the physical body. The teachings I was studying recommend not to experiment with breathing technics as they could lead to mindblowing / disintegrating states or imbalances that coulnd't be corrected without the assistance of a clearvoyant more advanced being (master). Whereas that might be good advice for balanced people, I feel if I do not cultivate my breathing, if I do not learn how to conciously direct the mobilized raw energies (that also build up from not ejaculating which is a choice already set) I am worried of getting into heavy congestions (especially around the solar plexus) or loosing myself in sensual overindulgence which won't lead me to liberation. However don't get me wrong, I like the sexual energy and know about it's power. Maybe it's because of closed channels / pathways in my bodysystem that I cannot yet positively harness it.

 

So that's how I got interested in parallelly doing some qigong or something similar. Now I am evaluating which way to take. I am a physically healthy, male, single, 32 years old, living in Switzerland. My body isn't trained in particular, but I basically observe a healthy vegetarian almost vegan diet for a long time and didn't need a doctor for about a dozen years now. I experienced cosmic conciousness for a few moments in life, so I know what it tastes like, but probably due to a body not prepared for it and contradicting subconcious patterns from the past, I lost it and feel far enough away from it these days. Of course I now can't be satisfied easily and have no other choice than regaining it.

 

I had a look at a few offers of qigong courses offered in this country but didn't feel the pulling to join one, also observed myself doubting the degree of realization of the so called masters or teachers. I woulnd't mind to pay for a seminar (as long as it's reasonably priced) but whatever I can learn has to be integreated in my own life by my own efforts so as long as they are teaching basic movements I was thinking I could learn them from book / dvd as well. I got a few, as f.ex. Master Liang & Wu: Qigong Empowerment, Ratziel Bander: Hsin Tao or Lu K'uan yü (Charles Luk): Taoist Yoga - Alchemy & Immortality, some of Mantak Chia (I just don't manageto trust him as I don't envy him for his conciousness and as he promotes orgasms) or Daniel Reids: The Tao of Health, Sex and Longevity. Although there is useful stuff in it, I still expected to find something better for me.

 

After reading several threats in this forum I got interested in Spring Forest QiGong and Kunlun Nei Gung which might be helpful as it seems to work "downwards" whereas the fire works upwards anyway.

 

I visited a few websites from Max Christensen and was a little disappointed as there was many nice pictures but not much about the technics. The link to the list with the certified teachers didn't work and the presented book is not available. At one place I read:

I was looking for seminars (there were some in Europe I guess 2-3 years ago) but there is none.

 

So what is the steps to learn about it and give it a try? For somebody not living in the US?

 

On http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/ I read:

 

 

So do I have to expect those practices to interfere with methods of western occultism (similar to golden dawn) although they don't deal with the body directly (but insist on the body being the mean / instrument of the alchemical process)?

 

A member here (I think it was little1, a Mantak Chia Tao Yoga practitioner) once stated that western occultism was the path of fire or ether whereas qigong was the one of water - can such be said in general? Isn't the sexual energy fire and water? Has a choice to be made after reaching a certain stage between Eastern or Western way of aspiration? I understand that the subconcious cannot effectively work if fed with (seemingly) contradicting systems / symbols but I cannot leave my body alone when I feel the urge to correct and direct energy.

 

Thanks for contributions to further insight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After practicing sundo for 17 years and teaching for 9 I began practicing Falun Gong. Ive had amazing results from it very quickly.

Edited March 14, 2011 by sundoteacher

[electric gravity]

well you could mix kunlun with other stuff or you could make it better. What i discovered is that if you roll the ball while doing kunlun lv1 you reach a higher activation more quickly. But only do this for a few minutes.

 

try it out you will see what im talking about.

[de_paradise]

Dear friends of awakening,

 

I am

So do I have to expect those practices to interfere with methods of western occultism (similar to golden dawn) although they don't deal with the body directly (but insist on the body being the mean / instrument of the alchemical process)?

 

A member here (I think it was little1, a Mantak Chia Tao Yoga practitioner) once stated that western occultism was the path of fire or ether whereas qigong was the one of water - can such be said in general? Isn't the sexual energy fire and water? Has a choice to be made after reaching a certain stage between Eastern or Western way of aspiration? I understand that the subconcious cannot effectively work if fed with (seemingly) contradicting systems / symbols but I cannot leave my body alone when I feel the urge to correct and direct energy.

 

Thanks for contributions to further insight.

You seem like a sincere seeker, so Im sure you'll find something groovy, as all these mentioned things will do the trick. You can go extremely far, just on the "sitting and forgetting" practise alone.

People throw around cool sounding words sometimes as if they have half a clue what they actually mean, just because they read it somewhere, and being so few things to label, they like to label and sort and cognize. My path is one of practise and locating what works, and doing that. Over time it develops or changes, knowing that it is "flying blind" to a certain extent, but having to have a guru master hawkishly imposing some system on me does not appeal at all. So the exploration that you are doing never really ends, and one finds something to settle into, noone will appear to you like the wizard of OZ and say that you must do this or must do that to gain the result. Kunlun is pretty interesting, but I never considered stopping my other practises, which are more Buddhist wisdom path in nature, or mind-only type of meditations, but also qi practise linked to another school entirely. It can be fearful when theres all these warnings on the Taobums, like you always get warned that you will be malnourished if you go vegan, or you will lack protein or this or that thing. When you cross the threshold and survive and notice you are healthier than most people, then you realize it was smoke and cognitive noise.

[d'avid]

To all of you my many thanks for your contributions.

 

@sundoteacher: I have heard good things about falun dafa from other people too. But there is the same warning not to mix it with other methods in order not to interrupt the specific qi flow.

 

@electric_gravity: As I don't know yet much more about Kunlun, I am not sure what you mean by rolling the ball (but having a few ideas what you could mean). Concretization was welcome.

 

@leif: yes, I found one in the meantime in Germany. Yes there was 3 remaing exemplars of the french book on amazon yesterday. I know french and maybe I buy it (although I prefer to read books in the language they were brought down to the lingual mind).

 

@jetsun: I am a beginner to traditions in energy-body-work but not a beginner to increased energy flow in the body so I would dare starting with something more intense. You wrote "but I wouldn't mix it with many other energy methods, meditation is fine but not energetic fire methods". Well the symbols I meditate with are having a rather direct effect on the body although without direct concentration on it and a rather balanced one (affecting all centers). I am not sure whether to classify them as fiery or watery, but compared to my state before I started them, there is definitevly more fire going on. I will see that I can read the book of B. K. Frantzis, I already considered that read and thanks to your hint I know now that there is really something in it for me.

 

@de_paradise: thanks for sharing. Concerning gurus and imposing systems I feel the same, final sovereignity won't be won by identifiyng with a certain path. Kunlun made an interesting impression on me, but the commercial presentation and the fact that the kunlun-website talks much more about Max and Kan and their greatness than the technics and effects rather alarmed me first.

It's indeed some mental work to separate cult-/tradition-associations from the neutral tools, so that I keep the freedom to in-vent my self rather than adding another appearance-identiy or the one of somebody else to my program.

 

@thelerner: Thank you for the hint and for recognizing that I am looking for something that I could follow for longterm. I had a look at Bardon some time ago (read his novel and in the other books, without practicing) and I did also listen to Ron Clark (the bardoncompanion). This stuff is not for me, at least not currently. I am also not sure whether the system is 100% correct (I am not competent enough to discuss such though, no flaming/blaming intended). I do have another hermetic system at hand (from a golden dawn offspring) which I trust, which I know to work out for me and which is about all tarot keys (Bardon methods seems to be focussed on the first). So I see no need to mix with another as mixing similar but still different systems might even lead to more confusion resulting from the subconcious garden.

[Jetsun]

Kunlun made an interesting impression on me, but the commercial presentation and the fact that the kunlun-website talks much more about Max and Kan and their greatness than the technics and effects rather alarmed me first.

It's indeed some mental work to separate cult-/tradition-associations from the neutral tools, so that I keep the freedom to in-vent my self rather than adding another appearance-identiy or the one of somebody else to my program.

 

Yes I had the same impression as you, although the Kunlun book by Max is useful I personally prefer the way Jenny Lamb teaches the technique as she emphasises awareness ahead of bliss and opening the heart instead of the third eye. Some of the concerns I had about the technique were answered on her Q&A section of her website

[freeform]

Kunlun in many ways is a system that's about opening, flowing, surrendering to your higher energy. Most western occult traditions focus on directing, controlling, visualising, willing etc.

 

For this reason these two practices would not go together so well. The western path is indeed an 'upwards' path - you're building, and constructing, whereas kunlun is dismantling and revealing, flowing down.

 

Contrary to Michael's opinion I believe kunlun is indeed a complete system - there are many practices apart from the spontaneous movement practice (this aspect of kunlun you could learn from Jenny Lamb who has a dvd out) and Kunlun is designed to achieve 'the golden dragon body' - also known as 'the returnable rainbow body' in our lifetime.

 

The reason you don't read much theory on kunlun techniques is because it reflects the system - which is about letting go and revealing your true self - nothing to do with thinking, logics and the intellect. You don't micromanage your energy, you leave that up to your higher aspect.

 

If you are interested in kunlun, it is best to meet with a facilitator (you have some on the french side of geneva, or several others in germany) - once you've been taught the techniques and received the transmission, work with it exclusively for 100 days and evaluate it. If it's not something that's for you, then stop practising completely for a week or so before resuming other techniques.

[Leif]

Contrary to Michael's opinion I believe kunlun is indeed a complete system - there are many practices apart from the spontaneous movement practice (this aspect of kunlun you could learn from Jenny Lamb who has a dvd out) and Kunlun is designed to achieve 'the golden dragon body' - also known as 'the returnable rainbow body' in our lifetime.

I too am inclined to view it as such, it probably depends on what one's expectations are.

Jenny Lamb says: "For any higher level of spiritual or energy practice, such as Yi gong (or you may call it Kunlun), it is its own complete system, designed to achieve its highest attainment." and I believe somewhere she also wrote along the lines that just the level 1 of Yi Gong is all one needs.

(And this is only part of Kunlun what she considers complete system.)

 

On her website - Q&A part - she also discusses the question of combining with other system.

 

I think this is something where if you really wish to do both despite the pre-warnings, you should turn to the teacher with a question describing your current practice in detail.

(After all, yi gong was combined with other practices into Kunlun, Jenny Lamb is a buddhist doing a taoist practice, and her DVD contains number of other practices besides yi gong and she says to do them in sequence.)

[d'avid]

good ideas, thanks.

 

I searched the forum and if wudangquan is right (and he wrote to have tested the technics himself a few thousand times: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/6763-the-max-christensen-facts-not-fiction-thread/page__view__findpost__p__78358),

this method is cutting off the oxygen flow to my brain.

I don't think such is a good thing to do. Probably effectful, as are psychedelia, but not the wise way to grow a brain I guess. The statement on primordialalchemist.com is opposite:

 

When other systems are taught, in particular, systems that increase the fire element such as Kundalini or systems that increase the Chi as in Chi Gong without the proper preparation of the connection of all three dantiens in a strong magnetic field produced by the middle dantien or heart, it can potentially lead to biological strain at minimum or neurological dysfunction leading to a breakdown of all biological systems in the body, therefore, It is imperative that the KUNLUN NEI GUNG System be practice as a complete system and not mixed with any other system of enlightenment.

 

There is more informations about the method than I thought / said there was on Max Christensen's websites.

 

F.ex. under the title "what to expect"

 

When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating.

 

That sounds good to me, but actually a little confusing for an advertised water-path.

 

I didn't find any certified teacher in the region of Geneva by the way.

Edited March 14, 2011 by d'avid

[Leif]

this method is cutting off the oxygen flow to my brain.

just a tiny note so that it's not connected to some practices (eg. yi gong) mentioned above: if I understood it correctly, wudanquan's post is about Red Phoenix which is the part of Kunlun that's not shared in the Kunlun book but only taught at seminars

[d'avid]

Hey, that's an important note I would say.

I didn't realize this.

 

From kunlunbliss.com

While Kunlun is a fairly safe practice to do independent of a teacher

 

Hoping nothing in the book which I just ordered (in French) would lead to less oxygen in my blood (but still sweating:-)

Edited March 14, 2011 by d'avid

[Sloppy Zhang]

I would throw in another vote for B.K. Frantzis, specifically the book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". Incredibly comprehensive book that is packed with information that you can continue to practice for the rest of your life.

 

Frantzis keeps the book techniques pretty low impact physically, and low energy metaphysically. But if you've already got something that is generating energy, the methods in Energy Gates will help you let go of that energy, balance the body, open it up, and prepare it for stronger energy flows.

[d'avid]

Thanks for your recommendation. By the way, I ordered this book as well today.

[freeform]

I searched the forum and if wudangquan is right...

 

Wudangquan is talking about the Red Sun practice - which involves breath-holding. This technique, if I remember correctly is available on this forum.

 

He says he's done it 'several thousand times' - which is impressive as, if he followed the instructions and did the technique correctly would take him at least 38 years... that's assuming 'several' means 'two'... might mean 'eight'! This technique has been shared by Max only a couple of years ago...

 

Also his explanation as to what occurs (oxygen deprivation, pineal stress etc.) is his own interpretation. There are many breath-holding practices around, and the explanations for how they work and what they do is usually very different from wudangquan's interpretation.

 

So regarding these kinds of things (especially on the topic of kunlun) you need to use your own discernment - there is a lot misinformation and incorrect assumptions being made from hearsay and rumour. In the end it's a practice - try it sincerely - if it resonates, you'll love it, if not, then you'll move on. simples.

 

Regarding finding a facilitator in Geneva - perhaps they don't like to teach, but I know several practitioners there. Germany is your best bet otherwise, as there are several experienced facilitators there.

[d'avid]

I do cordly thank you for the explanation. Of course everything presented in a forum has to be taken with a grain of salt before trying / inquiring one self. I had a google search for kunlun neigong / neigung for .de sites and a few came up. However I ask myself whether the energytransmission really makes that difference to learn it in a seminar compared to learn it from the book I ordered. I am pretty choosy from whom to take in energy. Is there a facilitator in Germany that you'd recommend in particular?

 

Thanks again,

 

David

[joeblast]

david, the transmission is the red phoenix practice - I did kl for 3-4 months before having the chance to add rp to it ('07,) and the difference between it (say next 3, 6 months) was almost night and day - not necessarily due to 'energy' but the red phoenix combined with spontaneous does way more than kl alone.

[d'avid]

thank you for the hint. I have read that the red phoenix practice is published on the forum.

 

However I am not yet there.

 

Searching for German Kunlun facilitators I just experienced a kind of irritation, one guy is not only offering Kunlun Neigong in the lineage of Max Christensen but also a pickup workshop (seducing ladies with NLP):

 

http://www.seros.de/nlp-shop,nlp-verfuehrung-seminare.php/NLP-Verfuehrung-Pickup-Master-Muenchen

 

http://www.seros.de/nlp-shop,nlp-verfuehrung-seminare.php/Kunlun-Nei-Gong-Neikung-Muenchen-Workshop-Christensen-Muenchen

 

It's all about the intention, isn't it:-)

 

 

[joeblast]

red phoenix isnt published anywhere, its done in person.

 

as to NLP...I've never bothered, the technique never resonated with me in the least, if you want an open heart then you cant hide your intent

[d'avid]

I fully agree.

 

freeform wrote in this thread:

 

This technique, if I remember correctly is available on this forum.

 

 

[Trunk]

... Kunlun Nei Gung .. was a little disappointed as there was many nice pictures but not much about the technics.

Here's the method.

Go practice.

Simple.

 

 

there to share:

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/images/YinYangMudra.jpg

 

 

It's about students ... practicing, learning, progressing.

Not about endless intrigue & hub-bub.

[d'avid]

thank you, Trunk.

 

For me a forum can also be about discussions, explanations and chitchat.

I don't see an intrigue in this topic here and an end to it as well.

Anyway, thank you again for sharing.

Edited March 16, 2011 by d'avid

[freeform]

I fully agree.

 

freeform wrote in this thread:

 

 

I was referring to the Red Sun practice, not Red Pheonix.

 

Red Sun is not one of the 'core' practices. The core practices for most practitioners are kunlun spontaneous, red pheonix, standing postures and one breath - there are several other powerful practices that can be incorporated.