[TTC Study] Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

What about ch.52

 

天下有始，以為天下母。既得其母，以知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒身不殆

[Taoist Texts]

I am not quite sure. Its been a while since we researched 52, I think we let it only half finished

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/19524-ttc-study-chapter-52-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=599087

[Stosh]

What about ch.52

 

天下有始，以為天下母。既得其母，以知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒身不殆

You DO realize just how rude that is right? I have no idea what your point is. Am I supposed to guess ,or is the intent to just make sure I cant follow along?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

You DO realize just how rude that is right? I have no idea what your point is. Am I supposed to guess ,or is the intent to just make sure I cant follow along?

I am sure Dusty meant no offense whatsoever. His question was directed at me, please dont feel bad Stosh.

[Taoist Texts]

Another passage that contains formula ‘know 知 +protect守=governing’ is found in

 

《荀子 - Xunzi》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 

 

Xunzi ([ɕy̌ntsì]; Chinese: 荀子; Wade–Giles: Hsün Tzu, c. 310 – c. 235 BC, alt. c. 314 – c. 217 B.C.)^[1] was a Chinese Confucian philosopher who lived during the Warring States period and contributed to one of the Hundred Schools of Thought. Xunzi believed man's inborn tendencies need to be curbed through education and ritual, counter to Mencius's view that man is innately good. He believed that ethical norms had been invented to rectify mankind.

Educated in the state of Qi, Xunzi was associated with the Confucian school, but his philosophy has a pragmatic flavour compared to Confucian optimism. Some scholars attribute it to the divisive times.^[2]

Xunzi was one of the most sophisticated thinkers of his time, and was the teacher of Li Si and Han Fei Zi.

 

(a charming ruist anecdote)

 

《宥坐》

 

 

孔子觀於魯桓公之廟，有欹器焉，孔子問於守廟者曰：「此為何器？」

守廟者曰：「此蓋為宥坐之器，」

孔子曰：「吾聞宥坐之器者，虛則欹，中則正，滿則覆。」

孔子顧謂弟子曰：「注水焉。」弟子挹水而注之。

中而正，滿而覆，虛而欹，孔子喟然而歎曰：「吁！惡有滿而不覆者哉！」

子路曰：「敢問持滿有道乎？」

孔子曰：「聰明聖知，守之以愚；功被天下，守之以讓；勇力撫世，守之以怯，富有四海，守之以謙：此所謂挹而損之之道也。」

 

Confucius, on a tour of Lu’s temple, saw a ‘reclining vessel’, and asked the keeper: what for is this vessel?

The keeper said: it’s a vessel to be on the right hand side of the king for remonstration.

Confucius, said: I have heard about the remonstration vessel, when empty it reclines, when half-full it is upright, when full it upturns.

Then he ordered his students: pour water in it.

The students ladled water and poured herein.

Indeed, when empty it reclined, when half-full it was upright, when full it upturned.

Confucius sighing in admiration said: Ah! To be full and not to upturn!

Zi-lu asked: dare I ask about Dao of preserving fullness?

Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – protect it with stupidity; deserving the Underheaven  – protect it with yielding; being brave to conquer the world – protect it with timidity; rich to own the four seas – protect it with respectfulness. This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.

[Stosh]

I am sure Dusty meant no offense whatsoever. His question was directed at me, please dont feel bad Stosh.

I just want to know what he has to say. 

[dust]

Oop

 

As TT says, I was just asking if we should consider ch.52, and posted the relevant portion. Though forgot to paste translation, sorry.

 

Not intended to baffle!

 

 

I am not quite sure. Its been a while since we researched 52, I think we let it only half finished

 

Yeah... perhaps we can learn something about both of them

 

 

 

孔子曰：「聰明聖知，守之以愚；功被天下，守之以讓；勇力撫世，守之以怯，富有四海，守之以謙：此所謂挹而損之之道也。」

 

Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – protect it with stupidity; deserving the Underheaven  – protect it with yielding; being brave to conquer the world – protect it with timidity; rich to own the four seas – protect it with respectfulness. This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.

 

 

Well...so we can be fairly sure that it means know...protect... but I still can't figure out how one might translate the 3 lines of ch.28 to mean anything particularly useful...?

[Marblehead]

... to mean anything particularly useful...?

And therefore it likely will never be destroyed.

[Stosh]

Oop

 

As TT says, I was just asking if we should consider ch.52, and posted the relevant portion. Though forgot to paste translation, sorry.

 

Not intended to baffle!

 

 

 

Yeah... perhaps we can learn something about both of them

 

 

 

 

 

Well...so we can be fairly sure that it means know...protect... but I still can't figure out how one might translate the 3 lines of ch.28 to mean anything particularly useful...?

Those words as they are suggest that one doesnt want to carry things too far, for instance, if I get obnoxious or overboldened because I think I am just so freeking smart then I really should temper that with some humility,

(as in tempering steel) 

SO I would tentatively substitute the word temper and look to see it this fit with other usages and terms.

[Taoist Texts]

“Well...so we can be fairly sure that it means know...protect... but I still can't figure out how one might translate the 3 lines of ch.28 to mean anything particularly useful...?”

 

 

Yes those are totally useless in their current shape, largely because the subject of the sentence is not specified, but its gonna get worse before it gets better.

 

Lets pick one of the more strange expressions 為天下式 ‘become/make Underheaven’s model’ and discover that it occurs also in 22: 是以聖人抱一為天下式 ‘the sage embraces One, becomes/makes Underheaven’s model’.

 

Still not much sense but at least there is the subject, the sage. Now, looking at the Mawangdui variants of 22 we see something weird: instead of model 式shi it has a governor 為天下牧 mu. To become a governor makes more sense than to become a model, or a valley or a creek.

 

Emboldened by this we make a search on 天下牧 governors in Underheaven, returning two passages from The Book of Han http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Han

 

 

《漢書 - Han Shu》

 

12 王莽傳中:   

天下牧守皆以前有翟義、趙明等領州郡，懷忠孝，封牧為男，守為附城。又封舊恩戴崇、金涉、箕閎、楊並等子皆為男。

 

In Underheaven, the Governors and the Protectors … being loyal and filial…granted governorship they were made into Lords, granted Protector-ship they were enfeoffed with fiefs.

 

37 多刻天下牧守印章，備置公卿百官。

There were many seals carved for Governors and Protectors of Underheaven, there were appointments of Dukes , Ministers, and the Hundred Officials.

 

Comparing this with the text of received 28, we do find the same and related keywords there

 

道德經28

 

知其雄，守 Protectors其雌，為天下Underheaven谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。

知其白，守Protectors其黑，為天下式。為天下式 Governors of Underheaven，常德不忒，復歸於無極。

知其榮，守Protectors其辱，為天下Underheaven谷。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。

樸散則為器 officials，聖人用之，則為官長top officialdom，故大制governing structure不割。

 

 

Enough to hint that this passage is about building up a hierarchy of state officials in a checked and balanced way, since it includes the pairs of opposites male-female, black-white, fame-shame. Coming back to the equation ‘know+protect’ we can expand it now as

 

know (white) + Protectors ( black) = Governors for the Underheaven.

 

The last unknown is 知zhi (know). Could it be a title as well? Of course it can.

 

E.g. 知州Pinyin: zhī zhōu senior provincial government official in dynastic China

 

 

If so what would the general import of the whole passage be? Probably it means something like:

 

Check and balance the top officials, promote those with unswerving De, bring the whole country to  the state of uncarved block or a newborn (which are without internal strife), then out of that uncarved block select the new officials as needed and the whole grand system of governing will be safe.

[dust]

Good work.

 

When my brain is functioning at full capacity I will try and contribute something useful too.. we can crack it wide open..

[Marblehead]

Yes, great work but let's not declare those three lines useless just yet.

 

Henricks' translation: (With my alterations)

 

Know the male yet protect the female.

 

Know the pure yet protect the less fortunate.

 

Know the white yet protect the black. (We cannot define white without the opposite of black.)  (Heaven and Earth.)

[dawei]

Lets pick one of the more strange expressions 為天下式 ‘become/make Underheaven’s model’ and discover that it occurs also in 22: 是以聖人抱一為天下式 ‘the sage embraces One, becomes/makes Underheaven’s model’.

 

Still not much sense but at least there is the subject, the sage. Now, looking at the Mawangdui variants of 22 we see something weird: instead of model 式shi it has a governor 為天下牧 mu. To become a governor makes more sense than to become a model, or a valley or a creek.

 

Emboldened by this we make a search on 天下牧 governors in Underheaven, returning two passages from The Book of Han

 

Your post is a fascinating discovery...  I don't disagree with finding similar passages and considering if the phrase should be applied else where.  

 

I first want to point out that 是以聖人抱一為天下式 makes sense, if one understands 式.   This is the cosmograph which Sarah Allen wrote much about and tied the Guodian Tai Yi Sheng Shui.  And see TDB topic.  

 

But I also found that the Beida version of the Dao De Jing has this:

為天下武

為天下武

恒德不貣 

 

武 - Wu: military

 

So a substitute to 牧 feels a little forceful... however brilliant the discovery.

 

My gut feeling is this:

1. The meaning was forgotten and muddled

2. The version we have is more legalist and concerned with governers and rulers. 

 

IT is a Huang-Lao interpretation of how to rule a country.

[Stosh]

Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – temper  it with simplicity ;       so as to not to fall victim to hubris

Justly having earthly power – temper  it with yielding;                                         so as to not be overbearing

being brave enough to conquer the world – temper that with care;                     so as to not be reckless 

rich enough to own the four seas – temper  it with respectfulness.                      so as to not be covetous 

This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.

 

Get it ?   , advance and retreat , its spelled out - dont lose what one has by taking the issue too far. 

 

Having large font  protect it with smaller font.                              so its easier to read

Edited April 21, 2015 by Stosh

[dust]

Maybe this has been brought up here already.. but it seems worth looking at either way..

 

http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/tian-xia#n3017

 

老聃曰：「知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿；知其白，守其辱，為天下谷。」人皆取先，己獨取後，曰：「受天下之垢。」人皆取實，己獨取虛，無藏也故有餘，巋然而有餘。其行身也，徐而不費，無為也而笑巧。人皆求福，己獨曲全，曰：「苟免於咎。」以深為根，以約為紀，曰：「堅則毀矣，銳則拙矣。」常寬容於物，不削於人，可謂至極。關尹、老聃乎！古之博大真人哉！
        
Lao Dan says, 'He knows his masculine power, but maintains his female weakness,-- becoming the channel into which all streams flow. He knows his white purity, but keeps his disgrace, becoming the valley of the world. Men all prefer to be first; he alone chooses to be last, saying, "I will receive the offscourings of the world." Men all choose fulness; he alone chooses emptiness. He does not store, and therefore he has a superabundance; he looks solitary, but has a multitude around him. In his conducting of himself he is easy and leisurely and wastes nothing. He does nothing, and laughs at the clever and ingenious. Men all seek for happiness, but he feels complete in his imperfect condition, and says, "Let me only escape blame." He regards what is deepest as his root, and what is most restrictive as his rule; and says, "The strong is broken; the sharp and pointed is blunted." He is always generous and forbearing with others, and does not encroach on any man - this may be pronounced the height (of perfection).' Guan Yin, Lao Dan, ye were among the greatest men of antiquity; True men indeed!

[dust]

Confucius said: being wise and knowledgeable – temper  it with simplicity ;       so as to not to fall victim to hubris

Justly having earthly power – temper  it with yielding;                                              so as to not be overbearing

being brave enough to conquer the world – temper that with care;                       so as to not be reckless 

rich enough to own the four seas – temper  it with respectfulness.                      so as to not be covetous 

This would be called the Dao of ‘advance and retreat’.

 

Get it ?   , advance and retreat , its spelled out - dont lose what one has by taking the issue too far.

 

Is that direct from a translation or are you paraphrasing? (I can't find it but would be interested in looking at the Chinese)

Edited April 21, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Stosh]

Is that direct from a translation or are you paraphrasing? (I can't find it but would be interested in looking at the Chinese)

Heck if I know, my perspective relies on two facts, one, that the guys were not babbling fools, and two , that if it is wisdom it doesnt change its validity with time.

So thats why I couched my reading as I did, the end result must make sense or its the fault of wording chosen to represent the idea. They had an idea and drummed the point home in several versions to demonstrate the principle. Even if the translation is weak, each refrain adds to the solidity of the point.

Protection, has connotations today , and the kanji ? Had connotations of its own back in the day. I chose the tempering of steel to connect protection with the adjustment of somethings properties so as to improve its performance, durability, cutting ability ,virtue. Back then they knew to adjust bronze for toughness or hardness by addition of zinc , it improves the crossbow bolt so it doesnt break, and preserves its cutting edge. You guys ,I depend on, to check if the creative verbal leap I make in english ,,fits the ancient chinese associations. We both end up taking some license, but any way you dice it, the result must not be gibberish.

[Stosh]

And to answer you better since I got off point, its my personal reading of what was presented, I cant vouch that I am working with accurate ancient Chinese to modern Chinese and then to english version representation of the original. I assume everyone is doing their best to stick close to the original.

[Taoist Texts]

I first want to point out that 是以聖人抱一為天下式 makes sense, if one understands 式.   This is the cosmograph which Sarah Allen wrote much about and tied the Guodian Tai Yi Sheng Shui.  And see TDB topic.  

I was meaning to read her research for some time, thanks for that

But I also found that the Beida version of the Dao De Jing has this:

為天下武

為天下武

恒德不貣 

 

武 - Wu: military

I did not know that. i will take that into account when finding out where these ravines and creeks came from

My gut feeling is this:

1. The meaning was forgotten and muddled

2. The version we have is more legalist and concerned with governers and rulers. 

 

IT is a Huang-Lao interpretation of how to rule a country.

defo, totally

[Taoist Texts]

They had an idea and drummed the point home in several versions to demonstrate the principle. Even if the translation is weak, each refrain adds to the solidity of the point. 

Thats the thing: is these 3 repetitions the same idea or 3 different ones?

[Stosh]

Thats the thing: is these 3 repetitions the same idea or 3 different ones?

Obviously , I think its one basic point in three different contexts. And since my english synonym in the english translations render all three of the examples comprehensible in english ,it's supportable.  It doesnt change the original Chinese , nor the modern Chinese , nor even really the English ! since its just a synonym. 

If you were a making a scholarly point, would your presentation wander the four corners of the earth or would you try to stick to the subject? 

I'd like to know if there are already known terms in ancient chinese for tempering , or heat treating , or protective modification of virtue.. which might have been an available word choices for the original author. 

If I 'protect my tools by painting with Rustoleum ' , the words painting and protecting become synonymous. For that circumstance , but I would tend to choose the word paint if I was painting, and the word protect for other situations,, but in another lingo , I dont know which would be used.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

Obviously , I think its one basic point in three different contexts. 　

If you were a making a scholarly point, would your presentation wander the four corners of the earth or would you try to stick to the subject? 

　

That’s the hypothesis we will use to analyze these 3 repetitive statements then

 

知其雄，守其雌，為天下谿。為天下谿，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。

       Make the Underheaven (creek?),  constant De not deviated from, returning to the condition of a newborn.

知其白，守其黑，為天下式。為天下式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。

      Make the Underheaven orderly, constant De is not harmed, returning to the Limitless.

知其榮，守其辱，為天下谷。為天下谷/浴，常德乃足，復歸於樸。

       Make the Underheaven (valley/bath?), constant De complete, returning to the condition of uncarved block. 

[Stosh]

Ok , working with these words , Googling underheaven , I dont see that as an acceptedly defined term but it connotes at least something less than heavenly but perhaps heaven like, and a water connotation is provided.

 

with constant spiritual adherence to virtue, one becomes as newborn

strict adherence to virtue isn't a restriction , one becomes freed 

Be fully virtuous so you are-one is , returned to ones native state 

 

So the underheaven implied appears to be the spiritual 'potential' of a person., and the path of virtue brings one back to the origin... themselves ,,genuine  uncontaminated (by screwed up socialization) . Looks pretty well tied together to me, and I imagine it would look that way to you , so Im wondering what the catch is.  

[dust]

知其榮守其辱    Know honour but protect disgrace *

為天下谷           Be the valley of things **

為天下谷           Being the valley of things

常德乃足           One is filled with De

復歸於樸           And returns to the uncarved block ***

 

樸散則為器       A carved block becomes a tool

聖人用之           Which the wise man can use

則為官長           And become ruler

故大制不割        So it is said that "Great cutting does not divide." ****

 

 

* in ZZ, this is combined with "Know white but protect black" ("Know white [purity], protect disgrace")

   -- another hint that they are different ways of getting the same point across?

 

** without effort, valleys move clean fresh water from the open mountains to the lowest levels, where the water dirties but is able to nourish. They even the balance.

 

*** returns not to being the uncarved block but to examining it for use

     -- in other words, he finds a blank slate -- clear and full of potential

 

**** both 制 and 割 use the 刀 knife radical, which to my mind is a clear play on words

      -- in other words, though, "Great rulership/creativity does not divide/harm."

[dawei]

Ok , working with these words , Googling underheaven , I dont see that as an acceptedly defined term but it connotes at least something less than heavenly but perhaps heaven like, and a water connotation is provided.

 

with constant spiritual adherence to virtue, one becomes as newborn

strict adherence to virtue isn't a restriction , one becomes freed 

Be fully virtuous so you are-one is , returned to ones native state 

 

So the underheaven implied appears to be the spiritual 'potential' of a person., and the path of virtue brings one back to the origin... themselves ,,genuine  uncontaminated (by screwed up socialization) . Looks pretty well tied together to me, and I imagine it would look that way to you , so Im wondering what the catch is.

 

Tian Xia (天下)

 

While there is a bit of political soverignty, I would go with All-under-Heaven... or 'of the world'