[TTC Study] Chapter 28 of the Tao Teh Ching

[dust]

TT, how about hitting us with a full translation based on all your homework?

[Stosh]

It may already be online by the title, Mein Kampf.

[Stosh]

Just kidding !

[Taoist Texts]

“TT, how about hitting us with a full translation based on all your homework?”

 

 

Sure. Prepare to be bored.

 

“Graham later argued that the internal evidence suggested Zhuangzi had never seen the text of the Laozi (The Dào Dé Jing) and probably thought of Lao Dan as a Confucian.” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhuangzi/

 

“子適衛，冉有僕。子曰：「庶矣哉！」冉有曰：「既庶矣。又何加焉？」曰：「富之。」曰：「既富矣，又何加焉？」曰：「教之。」

When the Master went to Wei, Zan You acted as driver of his carriage. The Master observed, "How numerous are the people!" You said, "Since they are thus numerous, what more shall be done for them?" "Enrich them," was the reply. "And when they have been enriched, what more shall be done?" The Master said, "Teach them."《子路 - Zi Lu》”

 

 

黑白分明，然後民知所去就，民知所去就，然後可以致治

Once the people had been thought the black and white, they will know to come and go according to orders, once they know coming and going – they can be governed. 《春秋繁露 - Chun Qiu Fan Lu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Dong Zhong Shu 《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

 

無不欲彊齊而弱秦。此雄雌之國也，勢不兩立為雄，雄者得天下矣。」秦王跽而問之曰：「何以使秦無為雌而可？」…夫秦齊雄雌之國，秦彊則齊弱矣，此勢不兩雄。

…Ji and Qin are the male and female states which can not coexist…the male will obtain the Underheaven..《史記 - Shiji》Western Han] 109 BC-91 BC Sima Qian

 

 

管子曰：「倉廩實，知禮節；衣食足，知榮辱。」民非足也，而可治之者，自古及今，未之嘗聞。

Guan-zi said: [once the storehouses are full – the people will understand the ritual; once the food and clothing is sufficient – the people will understand fame and shame.] But when people are not sated and could be governed – since old till now, that is unheard of. 《新書 - Xin Shu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Jia Yi

 

 

公孫鞅曰：為法令置官置吏樸足以知法令之謂，以為天下正者

Gong-sun Yang replied: 'There should be instituted, for the laws, government officers who are able to understand the contents of the decrees, and who should be the regulators of the empire《商君書 - Shang Jun Shu》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《法家 - Legalism》

 

 

人主身行方正，使人有禮，遇人有理，行發於身，而為天下法式者

If a man is righteous in his conduct… he should be made into a regulator of laws of the Underheaven 《管子 - Guanzi》[Warring States - Han (475 BC - 220)]

 

 

皆學問於孔子，遂為天下顯士

All who studied under Confucius got to become the illustrious officers of Underheaven 《韓詩外傳 - Han Shi Wai Zhuan》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)]《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

 

 

使人以幣先焉，鑿培而遁之，為天下顯武

Before the ambassador could give him gifts, he broke through the back wall and run away, later becoming an illustrious warrior of Underheaven《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)]

 

如此，則無以祖洽於眾也。

In this condition of things it will be impossible to put one's self at the head of the multitudes, and secure harmony among them. 《禮記 - Liji》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

28 道德經:

 

知其雄雌，守其雌，為天下顯武。為天下顯武，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。

Select among the officials those understanding the male and female politics but will cleave to femininity. Make them into illustrious warriors of Underheaven. If so, and their De will not be deviated from, the Underheaven will return to the state of an infant.

知其白黑，守其黑，為天下法式。為天下法式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。

Select among the officials those understanding how to make people to obey active and passive commands but who will cleave to passivity. Make them into the regulators of laws of Underheaven. If so, and their De will be impeccable, the Underheaven will return to the limitless.

知其榮辱，守其辱，為天下洽。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。

Select among the officials those understanding how to motivate people with fame and shame but who will cleave to shame. Make them into pacifiers of Underheaven. If so, and their De is at sufficiency, the Underheaven will return to the state of an uncarved block.

樸散則為器，聖人用之，則為官長，故大制不割。

An uncarved block is something the utensils (and officials) are made of, the sages use it to make the top officials from it, if so, it will be the grand system of governing and the state will not be dismembered.

[dust]

“Graham later argued that the internal evidence suggested Zhuangzi had never seen the text of the Laozi (The Dào Dé Jing) and probably thought of Lao Dan as a Confucian.” http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/zhuangzi/

 

Considering how Confucius and others are portrayed, I don't think we can infer that ZZ thought of anyone as anything in particular -- he played with names and ideas. He probably didn't much care whether Kongzi or Laozi were Rujia 儒家 or Daojia 道家 or Houjia 猴家

 

 

 

“子適衛，冉有僕。子曰：「庶矣哉！」冉有曰：「既庶矣。又何加焉？」曰：「富之。」曰：「既富矣，又何加焉？」曰：「教之。」

When the Master went to Wei, Zan You acted as driver of his carriage. The Master observed, "How numerous are the people!" You said, "Since they are thus numerous, what more shall be done for them?" "Enrich them," was the reply. "And when they have been enriched, what more shall be done?" The Master said, "Teach them."《子路 - Zi Lu》”

 

Can you elaborate on the relevance of this?

 

 

黑白分明，然後民知所去就，民知所去就，然後可以致治

Once the people had been thought the black and white, they will know to come and go according to orders, once they know coming and going – they can be governed. 《春秋繁露 - Chun Qiu Fan Lu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Dong Zhong Shu 《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

http://www.zdic.net/c/b/149/323091.htm

Could qujiu be talking of the people "assuming office or not"? i.e. Once they have been taught to think clearly (black and white) they will know whether or not to assume office, and then be able to govern...?

 

just a thought

 

 

Interesting so far. Will write more later

[Marblehead]

Sure. Prepare to be bored.

Thanks for the warning.  It truely was needed.

 

I disagree with almost everything quoted.

[Stosh]

Thanks for the warning.  It truely was needed.

 

I disagree with almost everything quoted.

I don't know what to think of it , but I approve of the attempt to say right out, what he believes it means.

[dawei]

I don't know what to think of it , but I approve of the attempt to say right out, what he believes it means.

 

It becomes tricky when referencing other 'schools' thoughts...

 

On the one hand, we can go too far with interpreting away from what LZ meant.

 

Yet, LZ seems to imply a subtle rebuke of other schools in order to make his point and how to better understand some ideas

[dust]

Thanks for the warning.  It truely was needed.

 

I disagree with almost everything quoted.

 

It isn't that boring is it?!

Looking at past translations,

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/wu.html#Kap28

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/addiss.html#Kap28

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks.html#Kap28

 

They all sound nice, but as TT has pointed out... none of them make any sense whatsoever (unless interpreting on a deliberately ambiguous level that might be something vaguely to do with neidan..)

 

And while I (as usual) don't agree that all of TT's homework is relevant, I think some of it is. I think there's a middle ground here which perhaps comes closest to the original meaning.

 

 

 

無不欲彊齊而弱秦。此雄雌之國也，勢不兩立為雄，雄者得天下矣。」秦王跽而問之曰：「何以使秦無為雌而可？」…夫秦齊雄雌之國，秦彊則齊弱矣，此勢不兩雄。

…Ji and Qin are the male and female states which can not coexist…the male will obtain the Underheaven..《

史記 - Shiji》Western Han] 109 BC-91 BC Sima Qian

 

Let's look at this more closely

 

..馮軾結靷西入秦者，無不欲彊秦而弱齊；馮軾結靷東入齊者，無不欲彊齊而弱秦。此雄雌之國也，勢不兩立為雄，雄者得天下矣。」

 

"..of those riding hard West into Qin, there is none who would not see Qin strong and Qi weak; of those riding hard East into Qi, there is none who would not see Qi strong and Qin weak. Where 2 countries fight for dominance, there is no room for 2 dominant -- the most dominant obtains all."

 

So when we get to Laozi, and he says 知雄 守雌， he quite likely is talking of nation-states, but might be saying "Know the dominant, protect the submissive", and following up with how states should not fight for dominance but maintain harmony and thus "return to infancy"

 

 

 

管子曰：「倉廩實，知禮節；衣食足，知榮辱。」民非足也，而可治之者，自古及今，未之嘗聞。

Guan-zi said: [once the storehouses are full – the people will understand the ritual; once the food and clothing is sufficient – the people will understand fame and shame.] But when people are not sated and could be governed – since old till now, that is unheard of. 《

新書 - Xin Shu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Jia Yi

 

This doesn't seem to make much sense...?

[Marblehead]

I don't know what to think of it , but I approve of the attempt to say right out, what he believes it means.

Well, sure, I'm not denying anyone the right to have their own opinion and understanding.  It's just that I have mine and mine varies with theirs.

[Marblehead]

It isn't that boring is it?!

No, not boring at all.  Really.  However,  I did disagree.

 

I have never denied that the TTC is a very politically oriented document.  However, to make it sound like a Confucian document is very wrong, IMO.

 

And to suggest that Chuang Tzu was not aware of Lao Tzu is a gross error, IMO.  And to suggest that Lao Dan was Confucius is just plain wrong, IMO.

 

WoW!  I have a lot of opinions.

[Taoist Texts]

Can you elaborate on the relevance of this?

 

 "Since they are thus numerous, what more shall be done for them?" "Enrich them," was the reply. "And when they have been enriched, what more shall be done?" The Master said, "Teach them."《子路 - Zi Lu》”

 

​those pairs of opposites had to be taught, they are what makes men to function as a society. Chpt. 28 takes off from the quote above.

 

 

 

 

ttp://www.zdic.net/c/b/149/323091.htm

Could qujiu be talking of the people "assuming office or not"? i.e. Once they have been taught to think clearly (black and white) they will know whether or not to assume office, and then be able to govern...?

yes it could that. once a primal tribe gathers together to wage war against the neighbors or to build an irrigation system - the natural leaders come forward.

[Taoist Texts]

管子曰：「倉廩實，知禮節；衣食足，知榮辱。」民非足也，而可治之者，自古及今，未之嘗聞。

Guan-zi said: [once the storehouses are full – the people will understand the ritual; once the food and clothing is sufficient – the people will understand fame and shame.] But when people are not sated and could be governed – since old till now, that is unheard of. 《

新書 - Xin Shu》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)] Jia Yi

 

 

 

This doesn't seem to make much sense...?

oh its the old maslow pyramid in action

 

[dust]

I get the pyramid, but in particular what does ritual have to do with it?

 

 

公孫鞅曰：為法令置官置吏樸足以知法令之謂，以為天下正者

Gong-sun Yang replied: 'There should be instituted, for the laws, government officers who are able to understand the contents of the decrees, and who should be the regulators of the empire《商君書 - Shang Jun Shu》[Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《法家 - Legalism》

 

Hmm... pu as 'blank slate' newbies turning into well-schooled regulators. Yeah..ok (makes sense)

 

 

人主身行方正，使人有禮，遇人有理，行發於身，而為天下法式者

If a man is righteous in his conduct… he should be made into a regulator of laws of the Underheaven 《管子 - Guanzi》[Warring States - Han (475 BC - 220)]

 

OK

 

 

 

皆學問於孔子，遂為天下顯士

All who studied under Confucius got to become the illustrious officers of Underheaven 《韓詩外傳 - Han Shi Wai Zhuan》[Western Han (206 BC - 9)]《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

Still not convinced that 溪 and 显 could be so easily conflated...

 

 

使人以幣先焉，鑿培而遁之，為天下顯武

Before the ambassador could give him gifts, he broke through the back wall and run away, later becoming an illustrious warrior of Underheaven《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)]

 

...but this makes more sense. A lot more sense given the 武

 

 

 

如此，則無以祖洽於眾也。

In this condition of things it will be impossible to put one's self at the head of the multitudes, and secure harmony among them. 《禮記 - Liji》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)] 《儒家 - Confucianism》

 

I can definitely see how 洽 harmony and 谷 valley could be conflated. And we've already suggested a similar meaning for 谷 -- a balancing agent -- so yes this makes sense

 

 

 

28 道德經:

 

知其雄雌，守其雌，為天下顯武。為天下顯武，常德不離，復歸於嬰兒。

Select among the officials those understanding the male and female politics but will cleave to femininity. Make them into illustrious warriors of Underheaven. If so, and their De will not be deviated from, the Underheaven will return to the state of an infant.

知其白黑，守其黑，為天下法式。為天下法式，常德不忒，復歸於無極。

Select among the officials those understanding how to make people to obey active and passive commands but who will cleave to passivity. Make them into the regulators of laws of Underheaven. If so, and their De will be impeccable, the Underheaven will return to the limitless.

知其榮辱，守其辱，為天下洽。為天下谷，常德乃足，復歸於樸。

Select among the officials those understanding how to motivate people with fame and shame but who will cleave to shame. Make them into pacifiers of Underheaven. If so, and their De is at sufficiency, the Underheaven will return to the state of an uncarved block.

樸散則為器，聖人用之，則為官長，故大制不割。

An uncarved block is something the utensils (and officials) are made of, the sages use it to make the top officials from it, if so, it will be the grand system of governing and the state will not be dismembered.

 

But...I'm not sure about the whole thing. Are you convinced of this, or still working on it?

[dawei]

I get the pyramid, but in particular what does ritual have to do with it?

 

知禮節 - Know Ritual... or Etiquette...

 

Thought to be written by the legalist Guan Zhong:  Link

 

"A well-fed people could be governed easily and would have a sense for decency and etiquette. Rituals, righteousness, desistance from corruption, and a sense of shame were the four social guidelines (siwei 四維) of Guan Zhong's ideal state." 

[dust]

Etiquette, manners -- doing things the way one is taught is 'proper'. OK. Makes sense.

[Taoist Texts]

But...I'm not sure about the whole thing.

thats understandable

Are you convinced of this, or still working on it?

no, i think i squeezed out of ctext all i could for now. this will do. now i will revisit that mother-son chapter you reminded me about.